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        New Message Board Archives >> 2003 Posts >> Clusters a symptom !
        
(Message started by: Elaine on Dec 26^th, 2003, 6:17am)

Title: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Elaine on Dec 26^th, 2003, 6:17am

Quote:

You certainly won't hear anything me me questioning your headaches. There was no question what kind of headaches I had either. Do I believe CH can be a symptom of some other, underlying condition... youbetcha!

DJ wrote the above. I agree with this statement and have often wondered about it. I think it has been for me and DJ and a few others here.

Any thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Charlie on Dec 26^th, 2003, 6:59am

I can't deny the possibity and certainly it's often aggravated by lifestyles. Dealing with this horror can make us try some things that may aggravate other conditions.

It's just so much damn fun. >:(

Charlie

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Mac on Dec 26^th, 2003, 1:49pm

I was finally diagnosed has a chronic in March of this year. When I was giving my symptoms to the headache specialist he asked me what I did for a living.Then he asked me a couple of personality questions, nodded his head knowingly and diagnosed clusters. I never thought about it at the time but since then I have been curious about those "personality questions" [smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Tiannia on Dec 26^th, 2003, 2:35pm

on 12/26/03 at 13:49:16, Mac wrote:

I never thought about it at the time but since then I have been curious about those "personality questions" [smiley=huh.gif]

ok I have to ask. What kind of "personality questions?" ::)

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Mac on Dec 26^th, 2003, 3:29pm

Well Tiannia he seemed to elude to an A type personality. I didn't think of myself that way but he took into account what I did (musician for one) for a living. I'm not saying that this is an "artist thing" but maybe (I've eluded to this in other threads) a state of mind clusterheads get into. It does seem to have some connection with sleep and REM-at least in triggering attacks in most. What's REM but a state of mind? When I'm drawing I tend to get more shadows and feel more susceptible to clusters.When I'm playing music the adrenelin is pumping and I don't have that feeling of imminent doom. When were finished playing for the evening and I let down is when I'm more susceptible to an attack. I don't know if this makes any sense to you - I'm no sure if it does to me. ::) ;)

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by jonny on Dec 26^th, 2003, 3:30pm

Underlying condition = Personality

Huh?

...............................jonny

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BobG on Dec 26^th, 2003, 4:22pm

Mac, Yep, makes since to me. Look at my tag line.

It has to do with stress and the lack of stress.

Sounds like when you're drawing you are relaxed. Bad thing. It'll bring on a headache.

When you're playing music and the adrenelin is pumping you are under stress and no headache. Good thing.

AFTER playing the music you relax and get a headache.

Please stay stressed.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BobG on Dec 26^th, 2003, 4:32pm

Tiannia, "personality questions"............

I've been watching this board and the folks here for a while now. Here's what I see............

Type A personnalities........
always busy in some way. We may be at work or on vacation but we are always on the go or thinking about being or doing something. We don't sit still for very long.

We seem to have addictive personalities.........
we seem to easily get addicted to something. Not necessarily something bad. Some may be addicted to their music. Some addicted to drugs or booze. Some are addicted to this web site. Some are addicted to TV, fast food and ciggaretts. Deoesn't make us good or bad, just makes us an addicted group.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by CJohnson on Dec 26^th, 2003, 4:39pm

Cortisol = stress hormone.
Prednisone = man-made cortisol
Take prednisone = headaches stop (sometimes)
Stop taking prednisone = headaches come back (sometimes)
Vigorous exercise = immediate rise in cortisol (sometimes aborts headache)
After resting a while = cortisol goes way down (sometimes triggers headache)

PFDANs
-Curtis

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by jonny on Dec 26^th, 2003, 4:53pm

Seems to moi'....that if presonality traits had ANYTHING to do with CH there would be a lot more clusterheads on this planet.

In MHO its got nothing to do with what you eat, smoke, drink, sleep or whatever!

Its in your head and thats that!!!!!

....................................jonny

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by don on Dec 26^th, 2003, 5:00pm

Not all Type As will have CH but
most Chrs will be Type A.

Not a cause, just a very common characteristic.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Tiannia on Dec 26^th, 2003, 5:01pm

Personally - I cant see this as being personality based. About the only thing that it proves is that there might be a corrilation between stress (ie internalized pressure) and CH'es. There are people on this site that do not fit that personality profile, but they are the ones that dont rock the boat while the rest of us will purposly knock it over just to prove we can. The addiction is a different matter and I can see this a little bit more, but then again you are looking at people who are extremly strong willed. Like Bob said havng an addictive personality does not mean that you are an addict but it does mean that there is an obsession inus that when we find what we like that is all we do.

I do agree with the sleep or lack of it being a trigger of sort. The less sleep I get the more hits I take during the day. It is a given, and from talking with others, it seems to be similar with them.

Tia

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BobG on Dec 26^th, 2003, 5:06pm

on 12/26/03 at 17:01:40, Tiannia wrote:

I do agree with the sleep or lack of it being a trigger of sort. Tia

It's a damned if you do-damned if you don't situation.

The pain comes on during sleep and you become afraid to sleep. Then you don't get enough sleep, become overtired and the pain starts anyway.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Callico_Kid on Dec 27^th, 2003, 12:44am

I think I have to agree with Tiannia somewhat in that it is the type A personalities who get heavily involved in what they are doing, i.e. this board. There are a lot of not type A people here and they are the ones who get criticized for lurking.

I think DJ may be on to something though that CH may be symptomatic of something deeper. I know that when I am undergoing the heavy attacks I also have other physical symptoms that may or may not be CH caused. Cause and effect are very difficult to determine though. Do I lose sleep because of clusters or do I get clusters due to lack of sleep, etc.

Bob, you are right on the money about stress.

jc

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Cerberus on Dec 27^th, 2003, 7:17pm

In Keeping with the CH tradition that NOTHING is typical about CH.
I must at this point state that "I am definately NOT a type A personality." I love to procrastinate, I'd rather sleep more often than leave the house 90% of the time. Let alone do something. :D

However, I AM an artist by nature and when I do get excited or anxious about something I can't let it go until either I've acted on it or its simply too late to do anything about it.

Here's an interesting point...........Stress I would almost definately say is a factor, 9-11 Boston came home a week later and BAM the worst cycle of my memory, this year no travel and no real significant stress factor, more mild of a cycle (course the proper meds helped that cause, as opposed to 2001). And I totally skipped the "Spring Fling" this past year, (really really hoping it'll happen that way again.)

Ramon

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Elaine on Dec 27^th, 2003, 9:39pm

I think all but Jonny missed what I was saying.
Could clusters be a sympton instead of a illness all by its self?

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BobG on Dec 28^th, 2003, 1:25pm

Yes Elaine, I also believe Clusters could be a symptom of something else. Just what I don’t know. We’ve all had CAT and MRI’s of our heads and the only thing found was emptiness.

Not to change the subject, again, but on the personality/lifestyle topic, from the OUCH site

Quote:

Cluster headache and lifestyle: remarks on a population of 374 male patients.
Manzoni GC
Headache Centre, University of Parma, Italy.
To investigate the relation between cluster headache (CH) and lifestyle, some lifestyle factors were considered in a population of 374 CH male patients consecutively referred to the same headache center, including 306 with episodic CH, 22 with chronic CH unremitting from onset, 20 with chronic CH evolved from episodic, and 26 with CH periodicity undetermined CH patients had jobs involving greater responsibilities and were more frequently self-employed than controls. In addition, their past medical histories often reported head injury, either with loss of consciousness (13.4%) or without loss of consciousness (23.5% of cases). As regards nonessential consumption habits, both cigarette-smoking and coffee and alcohol intake were more frequently reported in CH patients than in the general population, with a higher prevalence in chronic CH as opposed to episodic CH sufferers. In particular, smokers accounted for 78.9% of episodic CH patients and 87.8% of chronic CH patients--12.9% of episodic CH patients and 19.6% of chronic CH patients smoked over 30 cigarettes a day. Alcohol abuse was reported in 16.2% of episodic and 26.8% of chronic CH patients, while coffee abuse was reported in 6.9% of episodic and in 36.6% of chronic CH patients. Rather than pointing to a single lifestyle factor directly implicated in CH onset, my review suggests a common trend among CH patients to overindulge in certain living habits.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by jonny on Dec 28^th, 2003, 1:59pm

Grab a thousand people that dont have CH off the street and i'll bet you get the same results, or very close to.

.................................jonny ;;D

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BobG on Dec 28^th, 2003, 2:05pm

The study was done in Italy. Maybe those folks are just weird. ;)

All I know is that it was copy/pasted from the OUCH site and we all know that if it wasn't true then it can't be put there. [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by jonny on Dec 28^th, 2003, 2:07pm

HEY!!!!...Im Italian you bastard.....LMMFAO ;;D

..........................jonny ;;D

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by BlueMeanie on Dec 28^th, 2003, 2:42pm

on 12/28/03 at 13:59:39, jonny wrote:

Grab a thousand people that dont have CH off the street and i'll bet you get the same results, or very close to...............jonny ;;D

Gotta agree with jonny. Just hard headed I guess. I can't see how the surveys help when there are millions like us elsewhere.

Interesting when you think of it. DJ is on to something about the cause & effect. What is a CH ? We'll probably never know.

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Carl_D on Dec 28^th, 2003, 9:56pm

on 12/26/03 at 06:17:20, Elaine wrote:

DJ wrote the above. I agree with this statement and have often wondered about it. I think it has been for me and DJ and a few others here.

Any thoughts on this?

I've been saying this since when...1999? 2000?

I have also often pondered that maybe the head is merely suffering a symptom of something uderlying - possibly in the heart; since it is responsible for pumping blood. Maybe from a blockage somewhere between the heart and head. Who knows? DEFINITELY not the Doc's, that's for sure!

Carl D

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Ree on Dec 29^th, 2003, 9:54am

I think you all have little microscopic Gremlins of some sort in your blood system... and depending on your remission is how long or fast they pump through to get to the arteries in your head... If you are eposodic your guys can swim faster or you have more of them...

no applause please......... the answer that's all... Now we gotta think of a way to kill the Gremlins... ree

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by 5-string on Dec 29^th, 2003, 9:56am

[quote author=jonny link=board=general;num=1072440320;start=0#17 date=12/28/03 at 13:59:39]Grab a thousand people that dont have CH off the street and i'll bet you get the same results, or very close to.

Outside of this board, I've met 1(one)person that suffers from cluster headaches. I believe 1 out of 4 people I know are either:..type-A,over stressed, have a heart condition, take anti-depression meds,anti-anxiety meds,drink way too much,quit drinking altogether because they used to drink too much, commute back and forth to work on there bicycle,smoke 2 packs of lucky strikes per day,meditate,or are afraid to be alone at any time...
says alot about the people I hang-out with. 8)
....Mark..

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by AlienSpaceBabe on Dec 29^th, 2003, 9:59am

on 12/29/03 at 09:54:44, Ree wrote:

ALLLLRIGHT!!! It's about time someone else saw the little men that mine eyes and brain matter in my head.... and now i know what they are - Gremlins! But... um.... I don't have any little guys that swim (females usually don't, do they?)

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by Ree on Dec 29^th, 2003, 12:41pm

remember Ester Williams well the female Gremlins have a tendancy to take after her... don't thank me... we are all genius' in our own right... my brain is just working overtime this week... I am in the process of solving the World Peace problem too. love ree

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by HannahFroukje on Dec 29^th, 2003, 12:59pm

on 12/27/03 at 21:39:20, Elaine wrote:

I think all but Jonny missed what I was saying.
Could clusters be a sympton instead of a illness all by its self?

My personal opinion is that all diseases with pain involved, are symptoms that there's something wrong. So a clusterheadache attack signals that there is definately something going VERY seriously wrong. But that goes for a migraine as well, or a toothache. Pain is always a signal, we look at pain as useless and try to kill it off as soon as possible (me too!), but what else can your body use to signal the problem?

As for my own cluster-hubby, I know he "missed" quite a LOT of signals of his own body that were definately there in the period before his cycle. But the problem with signals is, you can not always find a solution to do something about it. When you're body signals with a shadow that the balance is disturbed somewhere, you will surely be able to pick up the signal, but WHAT NEXT? What's your respons?

Nevertheless, it is always wise to take a close look at all the signals also the little ones and try to answer them as best as you can: stress (take vitamine B and try to cut down on stress), being tired (get your sleep!), not well sleeping (take melatonine) ...

Title: Re: Clusters a symptom !
Post by CJohnson on Dec 29^th, 2003, 4:22pm

Channelopothies - Channelopathies are defined as disorders caused by pathology of ion channel function and comprise a heterogeneous group of usually hereditary disorders, which in most cases are clinically characterized by episodes of disturbed excitability of nerve or muscle cells. Such episodes are typically provoked by certain triggers.
http://www.channelopathies.org/

We are almost all of us aware of the goodness of verapamil. What does it do? It blocks ion channels. Specifically calcium ion channels.

"Ion channels are the most basic elements of neuronal function. Proper structure, expression, localization and regulation of these channel proteins are essential for their normal activity. Abnormalities of ion channels contribute to many diseases that are now generically categorized as channelopathies. While channelopathies are broadly investigated in heart, kidney, and skeletal muscle, these disorders are seriously understudied in the central nervous system."

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/channelopathy.htm

Here, our hero, Dr. Goadsby (among others) discusses calcium channelopathies and their possible role in trigeminovascular pain signals.

Br J Pharmacol. 2003 Oct;140(3):558-66. Epub 2003 Aug 26.

Voltage-dependent calcium channels are involved in neurogenic dural vasodilatation via a presynaptic transmitter release mechanism.

Akerman S, Williamson DJ, Goadsby PJ.

Headache Group, Institute of Neurology, Queen Square, London, UK.

"Amissense mutation of the CACNA1A gene that encodes the alpha1A subunit of the voltage-dependent P/Q-type calcium channel has been discovered in patients suffering from familial hemiplegic migraine. This suggested that calcium channelopathies may be involved in migraine more broadly, and established the importance of genetic mechanisms in migraine. Channelopathies share many clinical characteristics with migraine, and thus exploring calcium channel functions in the trigeminovascular system may give insights into migraine pathophysiology. It is also known that drugs blocking the P/Q- and N-type calcium channels have been successful in other animal models of trigeminovascular activation and head pain. In the present study, we used intravital microscopy to examine the effects of specific calcium channel blockers on neurogenic dural vasodilatation and calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP)-induced dilation. The L-type voltage-dependent calcium channel blocker calciseptine significantly attenuated (20 microg kg(-1), n=7) the dilation brought about by electrical stimulation, but did not effect CGRP-induced dural dilation. The P/Q-type voltage-dependent calcium channel blocker omega-agatoxin-IVA (20 microg kg-1, n=7) significantly attenuated the dilation brought about by electrical stimulation, but did not effect CGRP-induced dural dilation. The N-type voltage-dependent calcium channel blocker omega-conotoxin-GVIA (20 microg kg(-1), n=8 and 40 microg kg(-1), n=7) significantly attenuated the dilation brought about by electrical stimulation, but did not effect CGRP-induced dural dilation. It is thought that the P/Q-, N- and L-type calcium channels all exist presynaptically on trigeminovascular neurons, and blockade of these channels prevents CGRP release, and, therefore, dural blood vessel dilation. These data suggest that the P/Q-, N- and L-type calcium channels may be involved in trigeminovascular nociception."

PFDANs
-Curtis