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(Message started by: violet on Oct 4^th, 2003, 10:31pm)

Title: Cluster and TMJ
Post by violet on Oct 4^th, 2003, 10:31pm

Hi Group,
Anyone here ever get realy hideous shooting pains in thier jaw and teeth with a Cluster? I was told that it was TMJ, but I get the eye pain then, and the tears, like someone stuck an ice pick in my eye, and the pain shoots down my cheek, to my jaw and across my teeth.
Thanks,
Vi

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by tsayswhy on Oct 4^th, 2003, 10:57pm

hello Vi: no i dont get pain in my jaw but i know some here do.

when i am having my cluster it has always been in behind the eye [like a ice pick]
or like the last cycle i went through it was in the temple
area.

sound like you are having a rough time, i hope you feel better soon.

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 4^th, 2003, 11:31pm

Vi, it could be Trigeminal Neuralgia- Trigeminal neuralgia is a painful, unilateral affliction of the face, characterized by brief electric shock light-like (lancinating) pains limited to the distribution of one or more divisions of the trigeminal nerve. Pain is commonly evoked by trival stimuli including washing, shaving, smoking, talking, and brushing of teeth, but may also occur spontaneously. Or maybe Cluster-Tic syndrome I hope its not, I HAD TN 10 years ago and it sucked worse than CH does. Get to a Neurologist for a diagnosis. ...........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 4^th, 2003, 11:37pm

Hi, there..i have chronic chs and TMJ...no fun at all...pain in my jaw and face alot with the TMJ...i have to wear a splint at nite...found my TMJ can trigger my chs if i am grinding alot...Thank God for my neuro who treats me for both of these....smiles,nancyc

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 4^th, 2003, 11:39pm

Nancy, what is a splint? Is it a nightguard? .........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 5^th, 2003, 12:11am

Yep, same thing...my orthodonist made it for me...cost plenty but it helps with the jaw pain especially if you clench like i do in my sleep at times...stress , stress ...it will affect every part of your body...i hate it....Andy, what did they do for your TN? I have a friend who has it...she had surgery and it really messed her up...Her face has no feeling in it at all now...Looks like she had a stroke on one side of her face...really sad....smiles, nancyc

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 5^th, 2003, 8:05am

Nancy, I tried MANY different meds for my TN, Lots of muscle relaxers, pain killers...the only one that worked was Tegritol (Carbemezipine) The surgery was an option for me, im glad i didnt go for it. I have been TN PF for 7-8 years now. Im sorry about your friend, I wish she could have gotten relief with meds, but sometimes surgery is the only option. That sucks!! I still have episodic CH and am med-free and painfree. o2 works for me and imitrex inj. for the bad ones. PFDAN .....andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 5^th, 2003, 9:13am

I've always thought there was something with TMJ and CH, but it's never been proven. I grind my teeth also.

Years ago I was going to have the dentist make me one of those thingys to wear at night to keep you from doing that and a friend of mine told me to go get a football mouthpiece instead. It's cheaper - does the same thing. I did and it does. 89 cents... replace it when you wear it out. Works great - no more grinding at night.

Just a thought.... Hugs BD

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Turts on Oct 5^th, 2003, 9:29am

Hey great post.

i have been experiencing jaw clenching pain after a ch for ages. never thought it could have been something different.,

Always though it was stress involved with the ch. I read here about the mouthgard myself, and have been using it for sometime now (only after a kip 8 or higher late night (8pm or 3am))

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 5^th, 2003, 9:42am

on 10/05/03 at 09:13:56, BarbaraD wrote:

Barbara, that is a good idea, i wish i had thought of that back then before i spent several hundred bucks on mine. The only difference is that a real nightguard is made out of harder material and it is perfectly formed to your teeth. Mine dosnt fit anymore, go figure ............andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 5^th, 2003, 10:45am

My mouth guard does not stop me from grinding though ...it helps but does not stop it completely...Wont catch me without it anymore...it really helps the jaw pain...i stopped wearing it for awhile and the TMJ triggered off my chs bad....When my stress level goes up, my TMJ flares up too....smiles,nancyc PS Andy, so glad your TN is ok now..I heard that TN is even more painful than chs...is that true? Aren't you going to be at the florida gathering? I hope so...would love to discuss this with you.

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 5^th, 2003, 11:21am

on 10/05/03 at 10:45:00, nancyc wrote:

...I heard that TN is even more painful than chs...is that true? .

Nancy, in my opinion, yes TN is more painful than CH. I use to make funny faces all day every day for a year or so because the pain was so severe. Maybe thats why they also call it Tic-doulearoux.

tic=n : a local and habitual twitching especially in the face. Yes i will be at the Florida gathering, i cant wait to finally meet another clusterhead ...........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 5^th, 2003, 12:20pm

You lucky dog you --- you'll get to meet NANCY and ME... and see our pink blow up Thingy.... How lucky can you get!!!!!! LOL!!!!! Only four days to go......... Hugs BD

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by UnsolvedEquation on Oct 5^th, 2003, 12:26pm

I don't have TMJ, but damn my teeth, jaw, and everything else hurts during a cluster.

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 5^th, 2003, 12:30pm

Barbara, i think that the pink blow-up thingy is blue. ........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 5^th, 2003, 1:27pm

That thingy is PINK -- ask Donna -- I got pics too.... BD

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 5^th, 2003, 1:33pm

on 10/01/03 at 11:14:33, Donna wrote:

I''m ready and so is Barb G and Andy.

Just one shocking report for me to make......the pink thingy is BLUE.............look at your pictures from last time.

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by kim on Oct 5^th, 2003, 2:23pm

I suffer classic cluster pain.....but I have ALSO experienced a "clicking" sound that reminds me of TMJ. Sometimes I'll be eating a sandwich with friends and everyone can hear this "click" sound that happens when I chew a sandwich....I don't have a clue what this comes from and have mostly ignored it, but i do wonder where it comes from....? ??? TMJ? I dunno. All i know is it is loud and people sitting with me hear it and i'm usually self concious about it....

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by ave on Oct 5^th, 2003, 5:47pm

Natch, just the joint in your jaw on that side that cracks - like people cracking their knuckles, you know?

Happens if your mouth is too full or the filling is tough (and something for no reason at all) .

Happens to me, on the side I DON't have my clusters.

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by brain_cramps on Oct 5^th, 2003, 6:04pm

Last cycle, I experienced quite a bit of pain in the jaw and teeth on the side of my HAs.

Usually when my cycle ends, it comes to an abrupt stop. Last cycle, I had shadow-like HAs accompanied by the jaw-pain for around 3 months afterwards. (nothing major --- more just annoying) I have a couple of "bad" teeth, but not in that area of my mouth.

This continued pain was very unusual for me.

just my .02 worth,
grant 8)

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 5^th, 2003, 11:24pm

Pink or blue..i cant wait to play with it again LOL....Hey, looks like some more of us clusterheads may have TMJ problems...would not be a bit surprised...see you guys in florida..smiles,nancyc

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Pinkfloyd on Oct 6^th, 2003, 12:36am

on 10/05/03 at 08:05:10, andy wrote:

I still have episodic CH and am med-free and painfree. o2 works for me and imitrex inj. for the bad ones. PFDAN .....andy

Why am I confused by this?
You're in remission right now and not using anything?
If so, I hope it's a lfelong remission. If not, maybe you could explain?

PF

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 6^th, 2003, 8:06am

PF, yes im in remission now. I meant that i dont take preventitives. Maybe a pred burst when the next cycle hits. .........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Pinkfloyd on Oct 6^th, 2003, 8:27am

:)
Thanks Andy. I hope there is no next cycle!!

PF

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Carl_D on Oct 6^th, 2003, 9:04am

My doctor asked me a few years ago if I grind my teeth in my sleep. I told him "Honestly, I don't know, cuz I am asleep at the time." I was diagnosed with TMJ, and also know my jaw sits crooked. Imagine that. I asked my doc if there is any possibility that I might have arthritis in my skull. He just looked at me funny. However, this morning and the last few days have been trying on me, and my jaws, the back of my head at the base of the skull, and my neck ACHES! I can tell you days before the weather starts getting all freaky and changing around here, because I feel it in my head. This time of the year is the hardest on the noggin, and if I get a headcold, which I almost always do, double whammy!
Fun fun fun.

Peece,
Carl D

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 6^th, 2003, 10:36am

My ortho is convinced there is a tie in between chs and TMJ...or either we are more prone to get one if we have the other...who knows..maybe we are hitting on something here...With TMJ, it affects the trigeminal nerve...smiles,nancyc

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by litlgriz on Oct 6^th, 2003, 12:34pm

seems to me,i asked this que,months ago,,,,,,,it was promptly dissed n i was told to go bury my head in the archives,,,,,hhhhmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,i suffer from both,have for years,,,,funny huh. thought i was only one as far as this place was concerned,,,,,,,,now all of a sudden,,,GEE,IM NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!! does it depend on who you are,as to whether or not youll get a response or be told to go bury your head,,,,,,,jus because we werent around the first time this que was asked,,,,i wouldnt want to waste anybodys,,,,TIME!!!!!!!!!!! PPPHHHHHHHHH

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Pinkfloyd on Oct 6^th, 2003, 11:50pm

on 10/06/03 at 12:34:18, litlgriz wrote:

seems to me,i asked this que,months ago,,,,,,,it was promptly dissed n i was told to go bury my head in the archives,,,,,

Guess no one else wants to answer you.
Nice to see you made it back from the archives! Not many do ya know. Did you find a large pile of skulls sitting in the corner?

Just so you know...TMJ and Clusters have different mechanisms at work. They share the same nervous system and some of the same pain routes. They can also aggravate each other. Enflamed nerves would be starting at a higher baseline. Hence, if the nerves are firing at a #5 from TMJ activity, a cluster could be going from a 5 to a 10 instead of from 1 to 5. And unfortunately, vice versa. I would also *assume* that trying to fall asleep in a cluster cycle, fearing what may lie ahead, might cause additional clenching, setting off TMJ pain, which could in turn make the cluster worse if not downright trigger it.
So, although related, they are more related through marriage and not blood relatives.

Best thing I've seen for TMJ and clenching is Dr. Boyd's device.

Again, welcome back....glad you're flashlight didn't run out of batteries. ;-)

PF

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by nancyc on Oct 7^th, 2003, 1:22am

Good info, Pink..thanks...as far as why you were dissed the first time Litlg...that has happened to alot of folks here...maybe it was a full moon, maybe everyone was up with a ch the nite before...but at any rate, i am sorry it happened to you...smiles,nancyc

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Hirvimaki on Oct 7^th, 2003, 8:57am

Ocassionally with a KIP 7 or higher (or thereabouts) the pain seems to leech down into my jaw and teeth (on the same side as the CH). It does not happen very often (although it did this weekend). I do not clench or grind my teeth.

Hirvimaki

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Bob P on Oct 7^th, 2003, 9:33am

Here's a link to a picture of the trigeminal nerve, the yellow one in the picture.
http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/general/trigeminal_pic.htm

This is the nerve that is involved in CH pain. Note that the middle and lower branches go to the jaw/teeth on the top and bottom. Any wonder some feel pain in their teeth?

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 7^th, 2003, 9:58am

on 10/06/03 at 12:34:18, litlgriz wrote:

And this was your first question:
on 08/04/03 at 16:58:09, litlgriz wrote:

:o I had some one ask me years ago about possible relation of TMJ syn, to ch s............. kinda falls into same as chiro, some chiros said they mite help actually 1 did but only after back inj,that didnt help with ha,the inj made them worse,stress over the inj,, possibly with the jaw muscles,the clenching etc.......... i dunno any body else outthere? lemme know! c ya

And this was the reply you got:
on 08/04/03 at 17:03:23, Carl_D wrote:

I was diagnosed with TMJ in 1995, 3 years before turning from episodic to chronic. I have it in both jaws, but my left side is the worst, whereas I get my cluster mutilations on the right side. I was told by my doc that TMJ can cause some pretty wicked headaches in itself, but with an underlying condition, it can certainly aggravate the disorder.

Peace,
Carl D

Ididnt find where someone told you to go bury your head in the archives, Seems to me that CarlD gave you a good response, Are you having a bad day bro? PF2U .......andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by floridian on Oct 7^th, 2003, 10:52am

I have had TMJ since an oral surgeon removed my wisdom teeth. I was under general anaesthesia, but starting coming back to conciousness before the teeth were removed - I remember him applying incredible torque and swearing under his breath. It hurt like hell, but I was immobilized.

But over time, my jaw has gotten better. My clusters didn't start until 10-12 years after the jaw trauma. I never saw a connection between the TMJ and clusters. Although some of my cluster headaches included a pain that goes down the jaw, that pain is very different from my TMJ. Still, it could be a factor in some people.

Side Rant:
I went to a dentist at a university teaching hospital while living in Scandinavia. The dentist/professor there shook his head in digust when I described how the initial injury occurred. He said that U.S. dentists charge more for the general anaesthesia, and also treat more patients per day because they can just yank out the teeth quickly (which is more likely to cause trauma). To get general anaesthesia in most of Scandinavia, you need to go to hospital or trauma center and have an anaesthesiologist monitor you. Things have improved somewhat in the US since the 1970's, but I don't think enough safeguards are applied in the U.S.
[/rant]

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by Hirvimaki on Oct 7^th, 2003, 11:14am

Floridian,

That's interesting. My wife, a Finn, had just the opposite experience. She was reluctant to go to an oral surgeon to have her wisdom teeth removed here (in America) because of a horrible experience similar to yours when she lived in Finland. When I finally talked her into it, she had a wonderful expereience with the (American) oral surgeon. She swears she will not go back to a Scandanavian dentist, but will stick with her beloved American Dr.

Hirvimaki

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by andy on Oct 7^th, 2003, 11:27am

Floridian, i had a similar experience, except my Ch started 4 years before my oral surgery to remove my impacted wisdom teeth. I developed "dry socket" for 2 months, then a root canal, many many pain killers... then i got TN. Maybe from the surgery, i dont know. It was a bad couple of years though. I havent seen a dentist since, im scared to death of them. I remember him telling his assistant that, "this is the trigeminal nerve" as he was digging around in my mouth. Maybe he caused all my pain, there is no proof of it though. ..........andy

Title: Re: Cluster and TMJ
Post by floridian on Oct 7^th, 2003, 1:06pm

Finland is part of Scandinavia?? Ok . . . I guess technically it is ;) But they are really a unique. 8) 8) Finland used to have the worst heart health in the world, and they went through a major campaign to educate people, and now are doing much better. What time frame was your wife's surgery?

And things are changing everywhere - I know that the last two dentists I have gone to in Florida have been part of mercury free practices - I did not seek them out for being mercury free, did not even know that the American dentists were moving in this direction.