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(Message started by: CJohnson on Jun 10th, 2003, 1:09pm)
Title: 6 degrees of CH
Post by CJohnson on Jun 10th, 2003, 1:09pm
 Last night I awoke at about 11:30 pm with kip 6-7 pain. This is unusual, as my cycle ended a while ago, and I have never before had an attack out of cycle. The pain went away after about 10 minutes, but it led me to wonder if something may have triggered it.
Earlier that day, I had applied a commercial pesticide (granules) to my yard, and I decided to see what the active ingredient was, and what effect that ingredient has on humans. The active ingredient is carbaryl.
The chemical name for carbaryl is 1- naphthol N-methylcarbamate. It is a wide-spectrum carbamate insecticide which can produce adverse effects in humans by skin contact, inhalation or ingestion. Its main mode of action involves the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase. Acetylcholinesterase is an enzyme in nervous tissue, muscles and red blood cells that causes the neurotransmitter acetylcholine to break down into parts that can be readily swept from the nerve synapse. The accumulation, in the body, of acetylcholine causes over-stimulation of acetylcholine receptor sites (cholinergic receptors) in both the central and peripheral nervous systems.

How can this connect to CH?

If one accepts that serotonin modulation is a key aspect of CH, then we can point to studies which have shown how cholinergic receptors control serotonin release in hypothalamic slices of rat brain. Thus, an excess of acetylcholine active in the synapse, could disrupt the circadean modulation of serotonin. Certain kinds of serotonin disruption can cause activation in the trigeminal nerve, etc.
Interestingly, Botox blocks the release of acetylcholine.

PFDANs
-Curtis
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Margi on Jun 10th, 2003, 1:26pm
wow, Curtis - that's fascinating!  I guess a real test (if you feel inexplicably brave some day) is to sacrifice yourself to exposure to that chemical again and see if it triggers you one more time out of cycle.
I hope Wise Old Owl (Ueli) is reading this thread... I'll go tell BobP about it, he's a pretty good seratonin guru.  
Botox, huh?  hmmm.....maybe there really IS something to it?
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by oringkid on Jun 10th, 2003, 1:48pm
AH HA!!!

"The principal use for naphthalene is as an intermediate in the production of phthalic anhydride, which is used as an intermediate in the production of phthalate plasticizers, resins, phthaleins, dyes, pharmaceuticals, insect repellents, and other materials; other products made from naphthalene are moth repellents, in the form of mothballs or crystals, and toilet and diaper pail deodorant blocks. Naphthalene is also used for making leather tanning agents, and the insecticide carbaryl."

Sherry
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Mark C on Jun 10th, 2003, 1:59pm
http://tinyurl.com/dyx

Me Too

;D   ;D
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Bob P on Jun 10th, 2003, 3:06pm
"Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that helps facilitate erections."

With that out of the way I have a few questions.  

Do 5HT and acetylcholine attach to the same receptor sites?  I thought each neurotransmitter had it's own unique sites.

Which rat article can we point to?  I seem to recall from my reading that 5HT is produced in the neuron and stored in the platelets.  The hypothalamus simply sends the message for them to release more or less.

Is there a circadean modulation of 5HT?  I don't think I've heard that before.

I'm just playing the Devil's advocate here.  I applaude you for thinking out of the box (heck I applaude you for researching and thinking about your CH period!  Too many just whine).

"Acetylcholine is usually (but not always) an exitatory neurotransmitter -- in contrast to the monoamine neurotransmitters, which are nearly always (with a few exceptions) inhibitory. Acetylcholine in the brain is produced from acetyl-CoA, resulting from glucose metabolism, and from choline, which is actively transported across the blood-brain barrier. Most dietary choline comes from phosphatidyl choline, the major phospholipid in the membranes of plants&animals (but not bacteria).

There are comparatively few acetylcholine receptors in the brain, but outside the brain acetylcholine is the major neurotransmitter controlling the muscles. Body muscles can be divided into the skeletal muscles system (under voluntary control) and the smooth muscles of the autonomic nervous system (controlling heart, stomach, etc. -- not under voluntary control). The autonomic nervous system is further subdivided into sympathetic and parasympathetic divisions. Direct innervation of skeletal muscles is due to acetylcholine, as is the innervation of smooth muscles of the parasympathetic nervous system. Direct innervation of the sympathetic nervous system (except for sweat glands) is due to norepinephrine (or both epinephrine & norepinephrine in the case of the adrenal medulla). "


The smooth muscle surrounding the blood vessels is part of the sympathetic system so it appears that acetocholine would not effect them.

Sounds like the stuff just gives you a headache and a boner at the same time (bad combination).
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Live4Fun on Jun 10th, 2003, 3:08pm
OMG seriously big words!!! :o

Hang on... gotta go get my dictionary!!  ;D
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by jonny on Jun 10th, 2003, 3:48pm

on 06/10/03 at 15:06:18, Bob P wrote:
many just whine


On that note im heading for the shower LMMFYBO!!!!! ;D

............................jonny
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by CJohnson on Jun 10th, 2003, 3:53pm
First let me say that I know nothing. Everything I post is speculation on my part which I post for the sake of mulling over. I enjoy that you have elected to play Devil's advocate, as such discourse stimulates discovery. I will do my best to support my outrageous statements. Keep in mind that I have collected a lot more random information than I am able to sort and interpret. I am probably way off base on a lot of things, but the satisfaction of studying and discussing this stuff keeps me going.

on 06/10/03 at 15:06:18, Bob P wrote:
Do 5HT and acetylcholine attach to the same receptor sites?

"Serotonin is believed to be the endogenous ligand (substance that binds), the special carbamate-binding site on nicotinic acetylcholinergic receptors" This lifted from here:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/pb_paper/mr1018.2.chap13.html

I'm not sure what this means.


on 06/10/03 at 15:06:18, Bob P wrote:
Which rat article can we point to?  I seem to recall from my reading that 5HT is produced and stored in the platelets.  The hypothalamus simply sends the message for them to release more or less.


"It has also been noted, in this vein, that cholinergic receptors control serotonin release in hypothalamic slices of rat brain; and that striatal cholinergic interneurons are modulated via serotonergic projections from the raphe (Rausch, Shah, et al., 1982; Vizi, Harsing, and Zsilla, 1981; Hery, Burgoin, et al., 1977)."
This is cut and paste from an article entitled Further Discussion of the Acetylcholine-Serotonin Relationship found here:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/pb_paper/mr1018.2.appc.html
Aren't messages sent via neurotransmitters which are chemicals (molecules) released from the nucleus of a neuron?


on 06/10/03 at 15:06:18, Bob P wrote:
Is there a circadean modulation of 5HT?  I don't think I've heard that before.

"the hypothalamus, ­the part of the brain which regulates circadian rhythm and functions concerned with mood, eating, sleeping and libido. The neurotransmitter central to all this is thought to be serotonin."
This lifted from here:
http://www.dotpharmacy.co.uk/upsad.html

I don't know if this suggests anything.

PFDANs
-Curtis
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by cathy on Jun 10th, 2003, 3:55pm


Curtis, I can't say I understood all that, but it was great to see something like that posted!!

TY

Cathy  :)
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by eyes_afire on Jun 10th, 2003, 5:36pm
I've been pondering acetylcholine (remember Ted, in chat?) for awhile.  I've had these links in my favorites, but they're an inpenetrable maze to me.  I've been thinking of acetylcholine because of it's effect on sleep and REM sleep.  Obviously acetylcholine is important for alot of stuff.

http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromuscular/mother/acetylcholine.htm

http://www.neurosci.pharm.utoledo.edu/MBC3320/acetylcholine.htm

--- Steve, one of many...
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by eyes_afire on Jun 10th, 2003, 6:18pm
Awhile back there was someone here who was posting with great hopes in treating CH with Arricept (I think it was Rodolfo?).  I wonder if there are any more reports of success using Arricept.  Arricept is a relatively new Alzheimer's med that (in laymans terms) can be thought of as a sort of 'acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor' if memory serves me.  I could be wrong.  I wonder.
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by stevegeebe on Jun 10th, 2003, 6:27pm
Cathy I could not agree more.  True art.  

What I want to know is, are ya'll talking about the stuff  that bridges the space between the spiky part of one nerve cell and the dumbell shaped part of the other nerve cell next to it?

Steve G
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by CJohnson on Jun 11th, 2003, 1:45pm

on 06/10/03 at 15:06:18, Bob P wrote:
"Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that helps facilitate erections."

Sounds like the stuff just gives you a headache and a boner at the same time (bad combination).


Whoa, I think that might just sum things up. Before going to sleep and waking up an hour later with a headache, I was unusually "stout" in the sack. So much so, in fact, that I was immediately able to "get it on" for round 2 without any "down time". Coincidence?

PFDANs
-Curtis
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Live4Fun on Jun 11th, 2003, 1:53pm
OMG ... too much information Curtis!!!!!!!  :o

Glad you had a good night though! I gotta get me some of that Acetylcholine ;D

B
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by eyes_afire on Jun 11th, 2003, 6:00pm

Quote:
Before going to sleep and waking up an hour later with a headache, I was unusually "stout" in the sack.


... aka Morning Wood.   :D

REM sleep promotes it.
Acetylcholine levels increase during REM sleep. (I think)
Especially if you wake right up out of a dream.

--- Steve, o..(ah nevermind)...
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by CJohnson on Jun 12th, 2003, 7:47am
 Steve, that's very interesting about the acetylcholine and REM sleep. However, I must have not been clear in my post. The stoutness occured before I went to sleep and was of mighty duration (much to my wife's delight). :)

I am convinced that I inhaled enough carbaryl to induce an abnormally high concentration of acetylcholine, and that it had something to do with my "performance". I can't say one way or the other if it had anything to do with the headache.

Margi, I might be tempted to expose myself to more carbaryl, except for the following tid-bit:

"Carbaryl can react with nitrite under certain conditions to form N-nitrosocarbaryl. This chemical is highly mutagenic at low levels in laboratory test systems"

PFDANs
-Curtis
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by aprilbee on Jun 12th, 2003, 9:59am
HUH??
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Margi on Jun 12th, 2003, 10:33am
yeah, you're right Curtis.  I mean, how far do we GO in the interest of science?   :o  Meeting up with nitrite and worrying about the mutant result is a little over the top, IMHO.

Still find this interesting though and am watching the Botox trials with bigger interest now.  Thanks for digging, Curtis.
Title: Re: 6 degrees of CH
Post by Big_Dan on Jun 12th, 2003, 12:43pm
... I read about half way through this thread, and two gears and a coil spring shot out of my ear....

-Big Dan


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