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Title: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 8th, 2003, 9:27am Hey Ueli, I was just searching for a post that has seemed to vanish and came across one that you made concerning Acupuncture and chiropractic. I understand what you are saying and feel a need to reply. This is not out of anger and I’m not calling you ignorant - just misinformed. First, I am a retired chiropractor. When I was in school, 1974, I was told about one written statement in the AMA list of objectives, to ‘contain and eliminate chiropractic.’ The short story is that there was a 12-year court battle where 10 chiropractors sued the AMA and 24 (I think) other national groups for discrimination of practice. 14 settled out of court and the AMA was forced to change its’ policies as were the others (national radiological, hospital, and other groups.) Final judgement was handed down by the Supreme Court. There was no monetary settlement as no money was sought. Virtually all chiropractic colleges are approved by the federal government; the GI Bill pays for education at these schools and all states have varying degrees of mandated insurance coverage for chiropractic care. I could tell you some amazing stories of my clinical experiences, but I won’t bore you unless you ask. As far as Acupuncture, I am only familiar with the Maryland laws of 10 years ago, but an individual needed about 4000 hours education at certified institutions to become a certified Acupuncturist. The scary part is that MD’s (and in some states chiropractors) can be certified with only 100 hours additional education. Successful treatment does NOT require you believe it will work. The location of the points is EXTREMELY specific - miss the point by 1/8” or less and you might as well not treat it at all. One teaching technique used is a large wooden doll marked with the 365 major points then covered with wax. The student must needle the point exactly or fail the test. For 25 years acupuncture has successfully aborted my cycles in three weeks and usually less. Eight different practitioners from four different schools and only one ‘style’ has been successful. There are no graduates from either of the 2 schools that teach this specific technique in the state of Texas; eight weeks ago I entered my first cycle since moving to Texas and have been managing with O2 and other non-medical approaches and they are still coming. No, I do not feel as though they have becom chronic, just running a normal course. There is no silver bullet for anything (except maybe werewolves!) When in practice I would refer to other chiropractors using different techniques than I did and there was rapid success. I have been to acupuncturists that made my ch worse. The western medical approach does not have all the answers either - just take a look around this site for solid evidence of that. All I ask is that you ease up on those reporting success with non-medical treatment and allow people the option to try different things. Just because you don’t believe in something or it didn’t work for you or me doesn’t mean it won’t work for someone else. Wishing PFDAN for all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by don on Jun 8th, 2003, 10:12am Quote:
So my question would be this.......... How does the practioner know wheter or not he is, or isn't, within the 1/8" target point. If I were to recieve 10 treatments and he was off during 8 of those treatments then realistically I have recieved only 2 treatments. Hypothetically; It takes 10 treatments to have an affect on my CH. * Of those treatments 8 have been useless, but I dont know that. My conclusion would naturally be that accupuncture did not work. The practitioner I used informed me that the attacks would get worse during the treatment prior to getting better. He was half right. I could have more affectively treated the pain at "StarBucks" for a whole lot less money. Do I get a refund on the 8 useless treatments? Doubt it! |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by cbolony on Jun 8th, 2003, 10:16am Quote:
Do i get my money back ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 8th, 2003, 12:04pm [/b] "How does the practioner know wheter or not he is, or isn't, within the 1/8" target point. If I were to recieve 10 treatments and he was off during 8 of those treatments then realistically I have recieved only 2 treatments." [b] First I'll tell you I was qualified to certify in 26 states when I graduated so this is from experience as well as talking to the providers: There is a certain feel of the needle going into the point. (I know I am leaving myself wide open on this one, but) something like when baking, the dough has a certain feel when it is ready. Also, whichever diagnostic procedure was used to find the energy imbalance should be used again, either immediately after insertion or after needle removal, or both, to verify change has indeed happened. [/b]"Hypothetically; It takes 10 treatments to have an affect on my CH. * Of those treatments 8 have been useless, but I dont know that. My conclusion would naturally be that accupuncture did not work." [b] An ethical practitioner would make corrections along the way for errors made (and believe when I say that as a rookie, you do make mistakes.) If the post-treatment exam does not show improvement, you should be told the results and expectations. On the other hand when significant change is noted that should be reported also. In 16 years of private practice as a chiropractor, every patient was told their condition may get a little worse after the treatment - and it did happen in about a quarter of the cases. Sometimes for a few minutes, hours or even a day or two (rarely two.) It does happen and this disclaimer needs to be given. The five Acupuncturists who successfully treated my CH gave me this warning even though it never happened. If you didn't see my original post on my experience, you should check it out. I put it out hoping to help at least one CHer who has tried before and might try again or someone who might want to try it for the first time. I tried to get responses to see if there is any corelation to 'style' of treatment to success rate and there hasn't been a single response. So be it. I'm only trying to help. :( Oh, yeah. Ya' don't get yer money back! ;) Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by ave on Jun 8th, 2003, 12:57pm Yes, I was wondering when this would hit the board, when I saw your first post. I also wondered why, as a chiropractor, you did not call on a colleague to mitigate/cure your pain. I deduced that you knew from your long experience that chiropractice would not help against clusters. That, I must say, is a refreshing point of view from one who has been in the business himself. Your approach is a great deal different from folks who more or less command us to go see a chiro, and grow abusive when we say it does not work. (The posts of Subluxationskill at the medical message board are a good (or do I mean unpleasant?) recent example.) On the whole I am with the people who request no more and no less than scienticific evidence; something that one can do again and again and again, with the same result. If the theory on which a treatment (any treatment) is based is non-proveable, than results can not be anything other than anecdotic. And as long as we do not have the whole, proven, unshakeable picture of the why and how of clusters, you can say what you like about them - and most people regrettably DO. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 8th, 2003, 2:50pm Thanks for the support ave. As a matter of fact I tried several different approaches to chiropractic and none of it worked for me. What is really bothering me is that there seems to be a fair number CHers that would like to avoid taking the meds route and not one has said anything about any of my posts. So it goes. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by jonny on Jun 8th, 2003, 3:19pm Fucking Chiro dont work for CH! Christ!!!, 3 times a week for 6 months and it did shit for my CH. Get real!!!! ........................jonny |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by cathy on Jun 8th, 2003, 3:23pm on 06/08/03 at 09:27:41, dellp wrote:
I think what you asked got lost in your post... Cathy :) |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by jonny on Jun 8th, 2003, 3:35pm Just because something worked for one person dont mean it will work for even one more, posting here you should take into consideration that not all here have enough cash to run to the nearest Chiro. People here will do anything to kill the pain and thats not limited to draining the bank account. .....................................jonny |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by don on Jun 8th, 2003, 6:03pm Quote:
I dont see you as leaving yourself wide open. Any master craftsman will tell you that they have a "feel" for what they do. The same is probably true for a qualified and experianced practioner of acupuncture. One of the problems with acupunture is the cost involved in finding that master craftsman. It is difficult to find an affective neuro as well but at least insurance will cover a part of that trial and error search. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 8th, 2003, 8:50pm jonny, I never said chiropractic worked for me or anyone else I know. There was a change of subject - we are talking acupuncture. cathy, Thanks for noticing! ;) don, Your answer is in two parts. Second first, some, yes SOME insurance does cover acupuncture. Check your benefits package given by the ins. co. or call and ask. First part second. I have been trying to get people to ask their acupuncturist what technique was used and where they went to school so I (we) might see if there is any consistency to the successful treatments. In my original post I detailed my experience with Traditional Acupuncture School (now Tai Acupuncture Institute) grads and non grads. Think I should re-post in the 'General' area in an abbreviated form? Guess I do get a little wordy at times. :) Thanks to all for the interest. PFDAN to all. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by don on Jun 8th, 2003, 10:09pm Why NOT post in the general area? I cant help you much with my experiance, It was about 20 years ago, but who knows? you might be on to something. It's possible, probable, that one form of accupuncture will be more beneficial than another for CH. Lets find out. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 9th, 2003, 12:00am There is no subsititute for a qualified MD. Too many people who have a fear of anything clinical, try to avoid it with chiropractors. Many iffy things are approved, sanctioned, funded and even well thought of by many. That doesn't make them true. Astrology is a prime example. The federal government has wasted millions funding psychic research of all kinds too. Nonsense is indeed popular. I am glad you have had some kind of result however. I'd have painted myself blue and chewed cactus if it had worked. Charlie |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by don on Jun 9th, 2003, 6:24am Quote:
I agree 100% with you Charlie( scared yet?). All the other stuff should be complimentary treatments IMHO. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Callico_Kid on Jun 10th, 2003, 12:48am Dell, I for one appreciate your approach to the issue of non traditional treatments. I am not a proponant of accupuncture as I am basically ignorant of it. I have known of some who have used it as anesthesia and have found it to be successful, but more who have found it worthless. In the mind? I don't know. I would be interested in any data you can give other than just anecdotal reference. This is not being critical. I would seriously like to find some definative information that is not just opinion for or against. Then I can make up my own mind. I do appreciate your approach of not trying to sell your business as the previously mentioned "subluxationskill". I am a strong believer in Chiropractic. Were it not for an honest chiropractor who worked on my back for over two years I would probably be unable to walk. Following a serious truck accident my insurance co wanted me to have back surgery and referred me to their pet neurosurgeon. He said I would never lift over 25lbs again after surgery and had the chance of never walking. However, Chiropractic does nothing for CH as you have expressed. The key is having an honest Dr. who will discuss ALL options with both pros and cons of each. jc |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 10th, 2003, 9:34am on 06/09/03 at 00:00:41, Charlie wrote:
You want qualified? Go to any chiropractic college on the face of the earth by way of the internet, and check out the curriculum and I think you will be very surprised. Years ago I had information comparing the typical education of MD’s (general practitioner) vs. chiropractic. If my memory serves me, and in this instance I think it does, Chiropractors received more training than MD’s in anatomy, physiology, neurology, orthopedics, orthopedic diagnosis and several other areas. Additional areas of study in the chiropractic education include: pharmacology, pediatrics, geriatrics, microbiology, histology, oncology and lots more. During the AMA’s ‘reign of terror’ against the chiropractic profession there were regular town meetings where dis-information was spread about chiropractic creating prejudices that are still present - as witnessed here. In the early stages of the lawsuit I mentioned earlier, some medical advocacy group hit the newspaper with headlines about “14 people die as a direct result of chiropractic manipulations.” Buried in the article was the fact that this was over a 10 year period. The group quickly shut up and had no reply to the disclosure that during that same 10 year period there was an AVERAGE of 150,000 deaths as a direct result of improper medical care EVERY YEAR ! That’s 14 vs. 1.5 MILLION - which do YOU, think is safer? You probaably won’t believe this, but I had many patients coming in on a seasonal basis for (successful, non-drug) treatment of severe allergy; a woman with a stiff neck and told of 12 years of stomach problems and no success with medical treatment - 5 minutes of questioning revealed she was allergic to eggs! A four and a half year old boy with a 4 year history of ear infections including 2 surgeries had total relief with one month of treatment - his medical doctor could not explain why it stopped, mom wasn’t ready to reveal it was chiropractic. A woman scheduled for surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome cancelled her surgery after 2 weeks of treatment - no, this is not a common cause of CTS but a thorough orthopedic exam would have, and did reveal the truth. A Time magazine article said it accurately, “when you have a hammer in your hand everything looks like a nail and the only tools medical doctors have are drugs and surgery.” Now don’t get me wrong - drugs and surgery are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in the war against death and disease. There are times when nothing else will do. I’ve been under the knife more times than I want to think about - it even saved my life and the life of my brother, but there are times when other treatment are more appropriate. THERE ARE NO SILVER BULLETS OUT THERE! As soon as any health care provider says they can cure whatever ails you, it is time to turn around and look elsewhere for treatment. jc Thanks for the support and glad you found a good chiro. Just like any other profession there are good and bad practitioners and unfortunately we hear more about the bad than we do the good. Instead of telling how acupuncture (acpt) works right now, I will be setting up something to try to correlate successful acpt results with styles of treatment. I will get to your request later. PFDAN to ALL Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by echo on Jun 10th, 2003, 9:41am I have a great MD, Neuro and Chiro. Each is used for specific needs. It would be great if the MD and Chiro were one in the same. Only the neuro has helped my CH. My .02 -- I'll STFU now. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Ueli on Jun 10th, 2003, 8:09pm Hey Dell, What is this fucking accusation that I were misinformed, and then you continue to inform me at length of some well know facts: That the lobby of scam artists is so powerful that it suckered legislators into giving them some legal status and endowing them with tax dollars. You write: I understand what you are saying and feel a need to reply. So where are your replies? I didn't see them. So, would you please help me getting out of the deep pit of misinformation and go back to my post Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=meds;action=display;num=1036479389) and explain sentence by sentence where and why I am misinformed. One of your colleagues called me an allopathic idiot, which is a title of honor when it comes from a snake oil pedlar. Allopathy is medical practice which aims to combat disease by the use of remedies which produce effects. ;D Modern medicine knows of more than a dozen of neuro transmitters, many of them involved in CH. Please enlighten me how the simplistic concept of balancing jin and yang can deal with such a complicated system, one that varies throughout the day. The fact that there are four different schools of acupuncture indicates that at least 3 quarters must be wrong. That the needle point is a matter of hit and miss by a distance of 1/8 inch is another indication of bogus art: the misses are swept under the carpet and the occasional 'hit' (that fortuitously concurs with natural healing or the kicking in of 'western' medication) is exaggerated into a proof of the effectiveness of the ancient scam. Remember, One swallow doesn't make a summer, so inform me where do I find the results of sound, double blind studies on the effectiveness of any acupuncture or chiropractic treatment. Such studies are the norm for 'western medicine' treatments. If you cannot show similar results for the 'alternative' treatments, we must assume that there is something foul in the state of Denmark. You write: The western medical approach does not have all the answers either - just take a look around this site for solid evidence of that. Huh? I'm in the 5th year on this MB, and from more than 210'000 posts I've learned: Almost everyone trying Imitrex injections has relieve within <10 minutes, not 3 weeks. Prednisone brings down CH within a day, not 3 weeks. Verapamil, at the right dosis, dampens the beast in 1 week, not 3. What have you to show for your alternative treatments? Your own case, for 25 years the cycle aborted within 3 weeks by needlework. But how do we know if you are not one of the lucky guys with a very short cycle, that ended naturally within the 3 week of needle treatment? Have you ever tried out how long a cycle lasts without chinese hanky panky? I remember one guy who shouted hurray one week after acupuncture, we don't know if it was lasting or not. But many said that the chinese approach was simply a waste of money and prolonged the suffering. No reply yet on your call on successful schools. But maybe you can find in the archive some more testimonials for your approach. Since for you post 'seem to vanish' my tutorial on using the search engine might help you: HTSTFATLORFTSE, AHTBAEIIU (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1051750949) First I'll tell you I was qualified to certify in 26 states when I graduated so this is from experience as well as talking to the providers. Wow! In 26 states there are many clusterheads to find. Please tell us how many you have cured and how many got at least temporal relieve. We are awaiting eagerly your numbers! You write: All I ask is that you ease up on those reporting success with non-medical treatment and allow people the option to try different things. Sorry, I can't comply. My objective is that every clusterhead gets relieve from pain as soon as possible. That demands that I warn everybody from unsound bogus 'alternative treatment' that only brings money for the scam artist and prolonged, untreated pain for the clusterhead. Remember, I'm an allopathic idiot, I don't believe in miracles as sold by snake oil salespeople. PFNADs Ueli |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 10th, 2003, 10:05pm Hey Ueli, Nice to meet you, too. ;D If you can honestly tell me that when I produce a list of double blind studies performed by western medicine proving the effectiveness of both chiropractic and acupuncture, you will admit it is real and not some communist plot, I will do it. I've got too much going on for me right now to waste time if you are going to ignore the proof you request. And I'll tell you what I am NOT going to do: I am not going to get into a name calling contest with you - I can tell you are way too practiced for me. I am not going to try to pry open that closed clamshell of a mind you have - it was probably welded and rusted shut years ago. So let me know now whether you are really going to listen and consider the possibilities or if you will just stand your ground and be beligerent. PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Mikey on Jun 10th, 2003, 11:04pm Hmmmmmm as far as acupunture, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, their QUACKS.........Don't waste your time or hard earned money. That's the way i feel....... Mikey, >:( |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by brain_cramps on Jun 10th, 2003, 11:10pm I tried it about 12 yrs ago. After the first 3 or 4 days, the only thing i was relieved of was a couple hundred dollars. grant >:( |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Ueli on Jun 10th, 2003, 11:11pm Dell, I asked you to point out where in your opinion I am misinformed. I asked some other concrete questions. But you don't give any answers, all we hear from you is warm air, worthy of any wellness web site. Since you don't write one sentence to enlighten the uninitiated we must conclude that your verbosity is just some sort of oral diarrhea, the sort of hogwash we are used from coral calcium pedlars. Please stop bothering the board with your outpourings. STFU if you don't have some tangible facts to show. Thank you |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Mikey on Jun 10th, 2003, 11:34pm DITTO UELI Mikey |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Not4Hire on Jun 11th, 2003, 12:31am well, dellp.... "now chew dunnit, Loosie...." I kinda thought you were pretty reasonable, and you've made *some* good post here.... but when ya attack Ueli, ya better have read every damn word he's posted.... you'll learn something ...... I have read every damn word I could find on this board that he's written and there is not a thing he's researched that I can find fault with.... sorry bud, but ya stepped innit with this: Quote:
Produce the evidence.... Quote:
I (for one) won't ignore it..... that's a promise. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by paul_b on Jun 11th, 2003, 12:38am Let us not forget that the mind and body are one. It is our CH brain that is out of whack and whatever works to get each of our hypothalamus to function correctly is all I ask for. Let our search continue. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 11th, 2003, 6:24am There is no substitute for a good MD. Like it or not, MDs are a pretty good bunch on the whole. Many of them feel so helpless around CH that they'll try everything in the hope that their diagnosis is wrong. They hate not being able to help sometimes. Charlie |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 11th, 2003, 6:52am Well, I tried to take to high road here, and you guys just don't want anything to do with it. Someone had a tag line that is very fitting for what is going on here. Something to the effect of - don't fight with the ignorant because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Not4Hire, you said will listen if proof of effectiveness is found, so I will do this for you and the other rational people. Ueli, you never said one word about listening to any proof that is given - I guess you have too much fun just being the bully. You are good at it, though You like numbers, Ueli? You never responded to 150,000 deaths a year directly attributed to medical treatment every year (that was more than 20 years ago - by now it might be as many as the 210,000 posts it has taken thousands of people 5 years to make.) Western medicine is based on the scientific method. Do you know what the 'scientific method' is? Trial and error. Try something and if it doesn't work, try something else. Pretty scientific, huh? And those 150,000 people that die every year, they die of what is 'tried and true', not experimentation. Just so you know, I do have a life. I work one full time job and I am starting a business of my own from scratch - setting up the books, designing product, overseeing manufacturing, getting a website together, establishing a distribution network, and all the rest of the crap that needs to be done. And, oh yeah, I have submitted the idea for an article on cluster headaches to AARP and they sound interested so far, so I have begun writing the article. (Not to mention the hours I spend here at CH.com every day.) So give me a couple days, I will get back to you. PFDAN to all - even the uninformed, the beligerent and the bullies Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by BobG on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:15am Quote:
I've stayed out of this string up to now. Everyone already knows my thoughts on the subject(s). But, that statement above from dellp sounds like it was copy and pasted straight from the chiro handbook. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 11th, 2003, 10:13am on 06/11/03 at 07:15:20, BobG wrote:
so what's your point, Bob, 150,000 deaths a year caused by trained professionals is irrelevant! ! ? ! ? |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Roxy on Jun 11th, 2003, 10:58am I thought I would be able to stay out of this thread too, but dellp, obviously you aren't reading Ueli's post very good. Read his quote below....he is asking for you to substantiate your claims. on 06/10/03 at 23:11:02, Ueli wrote:
You responded with a smart ass answer. on 06/11/03 at 06:52:59, dellp wrote:
Someone who isn't willing to listen, doesn't ask the questions in the first place. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Marc on Jun 11th, 2003, 11:24am I think that these types of discussions are good. I've been here for 2-1/2 years but I tend to pick up new info each time. IF a person is a snake oil salesman trying to sell their stuff, then we chase them away - that's good. IF someone simply wants to discuss some form of potential treatment and the theory behind it - that's good too. Fortunately, the collective experience on this web site is nothing less than phenomenal so we all get to see strong arguments for each issue. Unfortunately, some folks resort to personal attacks – so the discussion stops. Marc |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by oringkid on Jun 11th, 2003, 12:19pm Just for the fun of it, I did some checking. Keep in mind, I am neither for nor against the treatment in question. However, here are some very interesting links. http://www.sportsnspokes.com/PN/Articles_9798/9809accu/accupun2.htm (you can read the intro by hitting the previous page link) This is the statement referred to in the above article http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_intro.htm On the other hand.... http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band105/b105-2.html And finally this, which is a link to a pdf document http://pulsemed.org/Acupuncture%20Research%20for%20Physicians.pdf I, for one, would enjoy hearing what you all think of these. Make sure to be fair, and read each one. I am sure there are many other things out there. But I was doing a quick search. Sherry oh yeah, keep in mind, I was just looking for info on the validity of acupuncture in general, not for this or that specific treatment although there is info here for specific treatments. s |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Ted on Jun 11th, 2003, 12:24pm It's not even my birthday and I come back to the board and find such a present of a thread like this. What a great group this is. :-) DellP: "Chiros can be good for, and accupuncturists ARE good for, CHs." Ueli, others here, Medical research: "Chiros and accupuncturists are useless for CH." DellP: "Oh yeah? I'd tell the thousands of people why it's good, with verifiable proof, and set the record straight for ALL of you but my opinion is that Ueli, merely one of the thousands, won't accept it." DellP: "You want proof? I'll give you proof... some other time. I'm too busy with everything right now to take the time to copy and paste from an article or my own research. OK. I'm not too busy to write many long posts to this thread though that supply no evidence to back my point." DellP: Ohhhhhh. You want scientific proof? Well, that's just a bunch of gobbldie gook. Did you know that scientific proof is JUST trial and error testing things? Me: No. It's sitting down and analyzing the problem and breaking it down to it's smallest parts possible to see what's going on. From there a theory is formed based on logic. From there, rational thought is further supplied to prepare and carry out tests to prove or disprove the theory. If successful, from there larger and many more tests are prepared and carried out to try and get the same results, or, more accurately DISprove the theory and NOT get the same results. So, what you're saying is the methods your advocating for clusters doesn't employ trials or testing? Everything is just arbitrarily done?" DellP: "I am not going to get into a name calling contest with you - I can tell you are way too practiced for me. I am not going to try to pry open that closed clamshell of a mind you have - it was probably welded and rusted shut years ago." Me: "I hate when I back-to-back contradictions like that." DellP: "Chiros can be good for, and accupuncturists ARE good for, CHs." Ueli, others here, Medical research: "Chiros and accupuncturists are useless for CH." DellP: "Oh yeah? I'd tell the thousands of people why it's good, with verifiable proof, and set the record straight for ALL of you but my opinion is that Ueli, merely one of the thousands, won't accept it." DellP: "You want proof? I'll give you proof... some other time. I'm too busy with everything right now to take the time to copy and paste from an article or my own research. OK. I'm not too busy to write many long posts to this thread though that supply no evidence to back my point." The slowest way from point A to point A has just been shown. But the circle of life was very well illustrated here. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by CJohnson on Jun 11th, 2003, 12:46pm Dell, first I would like to say that if you besmirch Ueli in a dream you had better wake up and apologize. Second, I would like to suggest that, when trying to have discourse regarding acupuncture, instead of posting some long-winded diatribe extolling the virtues of all things chiropractic, you cite some medical evidence of accupuncture affecting some known aspect of the mechanism of CH. When responding to a question about HOW accupuncture might bring relief to a CH sufferer, do not respond with the oral equivilant of shouting "Chiropracters rule, M.D.s drool!" Also, citing the number of deaths attributed to modern western medicine as a means of getting someone to consider acupuncture is as effective as citing the number of car related deaths as a means of getting someone to consider taking the bus everywhere instead of owning a car. The best way to generate sympathy would be to post something like the following, which may (or may not) show a direct link to accupuncture and a known aspect of CH. This from the Swiss Pain Institute website: Sprott H. Franke S. Kluge H. Hein G. Pain treatment of fibromyalgia by acupuncture [letter]. Rheumatology International. 18(1):35-6, 1998. Abstract: The lack of objective parameters makes the measurement of pain and the efficacy of pain treatment in patients with chronic pain very difficult. We performed acupuncture therapy in fibromyalgia patients and established a combination of methods to objectify pain measurement before and after therapy. The parameters corresponded to patients' self-report. Twenty-nine fibromyalgia patients as defined by ACR-criteria (25 women, 4 men) with a mean age of 48.2 +/- 2.0 years and a mean disease duration of 6.1 +/- 1.0 years participated in the study. Pain levels and positive tender points were assessed using the visual analogue scale (VAS, i.e., range 0-100 mm) and dolorimetry. Serotonin and substance P levels in serum and the serotonin concentration in platelets were measured concomitantly. During acupuncture therapy no analgesic medication was allowed. The VAS scores decreased from 64.0 +/- 3.4 mm before therapy to 34.5 +/- 4.3 mm after therapy (P < 0.001). Dolorimetry revealed a decreased number of tender points after therapy from 16.0 +/- 0.6 to 11.8 +/- 1.0, P < 0.01. Serotonin levels decreased from 715.8 +/- 225.8 micrograms/10(12) platelets to 352.4 +/- 47.9 micrograms/10(12) platelets (P< 0.01), whereas the serum concentration increased from 134.0 +/- 14.3 ng/ml to 171.2 +/- 14.6 ng/ml (P < 0.01). Substance P levels in serum increased from 43.4 +/- 3.5 pg/ml to 66.9 +/- 8.8 pg/ml (P < 0.01). Acupuncture treatment of patients with fibromyalgia was associated with decreased pain levels and fewer positive tender points as measured by VAS and dolorimetry. This was accompanied by decreased serotonin concentration in platelets and an increase of serotonin and substance P levels in serum. These results suggest that acupuncture therapy is associated with changes in the concentrations of pain-modulating substances in serum. The preliminary results are objective parameters for acupuncture efficacy in patients with fibromyalgia. http://www.swisspaininstitute.ch/Literatur/Serotonin/Serotonin02.htm PFDANs -Curtis |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Globi77411 on Jun 11th, 2003, 1:52pm Dell Most people here went through a lot to find a cure. Most people listened at one desperate point in live to of the stories like “this natural thing will help you….sure!!!!” Most of us spent too much money on things like that as well. There is no proof that chiropractic works for clusterheads. I have tried chiropractic and after 2 doctors went to the ultimate top chiropractic guy in my country who’s first comment was “I will cure you within a month” . It didn’t help and when I’ve asked him for proof on other cluster headache patients he had successfully treated. He couldn’t supply any real facts. My neurology knows most of the though patients around this area and he swears NEVER EVER a chiropratic has helped one of them. Is this the only thing I’ve tried? Hell no. I’ve done acupuncture, aromatherapy, pressure therapy (some kind of massage) and went to see at least 5 natural doctors who gave me many, many expensive pills with no results. One thing still hangs in my mind…..only these natural treatment/medicine people always told me they would cure me and they never did a bit. ‘Normal’ doctors always told me they where not sure what results treatments would have. Is chiropractic totally nonsense? No. it’s not. But keep to the things chiropractic proved itself in. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 11th, 2003, 3:38pm This is really incredible! And it's really great that so many people are getting into this. I must start here by going over a couple statements I made and where I was going with all this. First: I have never said or even implied that chiropractic is good for CH. As a matter of fact I clearly stated that I tried several defferent approaches to chiropractic and they all failed - completely. Second: My statement was that acupuncture has helped MY HA and that there were others that also found relief. I was just trying to link to a single approach to acupuncture. Not trying to sell this one either. Ueli is in the picture because I found a post from another chiropractor -WHICH, BTW I do not agree with what he was saying or his attitude. Ueli's reply was, well....'snake oil' and a post filled with inaccuracies. My initial post here was to relay facts about both professions with the hope of clearing things up. We can see where that got me. So, I am back with more info and specific studies from sources around the world indicating that chiropractic and acupuncture are indeed valid approaches to health care. Ueli, I'll tell you up front that I'm not sure if there are double blind studies here or not, but there is some good info. So HERE WE GO ! First, a few statements before getting into the studies: A study published in the April 15, 1998 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that more than 2 million Americans become seriously ill every year from reactions to drugs that were correctly prescribed and taken; 106,000 Americans die annually from those side effects. [that’s from drug reaction only, no other cause of death is listed here - Dell] According to a 1993 report funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health, "The overwhelming body of evidence shows that chiropractic management of low-back pain is more cost-effective than medical management, and that many medical therapies are of questionable validity or clearly inadequate." Chiropractic is the third largest doctoral-level health care profession in the western world after medicine and dentistry. In the United States, the governments of all states license and regulate doctors of chiropractic as independently practicing health care professionals. THE AGENCY ON HEALTH CARE POLICY AND RESEARCH STUDY On December 8, 1994, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research (AHCPR) of the US Department of Health and Human Services released Clinical Practice Guidelines for the management of acute low back pain. Their guidelines were developed after extensive study of diagnostic and treatment methods for acute low back pain. The guidelines were created by the AHCPR panel to provide primary care clinicians with information and recommended strategies for the assessment and treatment of acute low back problems. The AHCPR panel was made up of 23 members consisting of medical doctors, chiropractic doctors, nurses, experts in spinal research, physical therapists, an occupational therapist, a psychologist, and a consumer representative. The following conclusions were made in this landmark study:  Conservative treatment such as spinal manipulation should be pursued in most before cases considering surgical intervention;  Prescription drugs such as oral steroids, antidepressant medications and colchicine are not recommended for acute low back problems. Acute Low Back Problems in Adults. Clinical Practice Guidelines. Bigos S, et al. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research Publication No. 950642 (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services) -1994. THE MANGA REPORT As the largest existing analysis of scientific literature on low back pain, the 1993 Ontario Ministry of Health commissioned study drew international attention when it recommended the management of low back pain be moved from medical doctors to chiropractic doctors. Due to serious financial problems with the Canadian governments, the different types of treatments for low back conditions were evaluated in an effort to reduce and contain health care costs. Their findings showed chiropractic manipulation was the most cost effective and efficacious care for low back pain. The researchers also stated that studies on the prevalence and incidence of low back pain suggest that it is the leading cause of disability and morbidity in middle-aged persons, and is by far the most expensive source of workers' compensation costs North America. THE AV-MED STUDY In this study, 80 patients who previously received medical treatment were subsequently referred to the Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of the 80 patients, 21 percent had just been diagnosed with spinal disc problems, 12 percent had been diagnosed as requiring surgery and 5 percent had received emergency room treatment. Following chiropractic treatment, none of the patients were required to have surgery, 86 percent of the patients needed no further care, and the estimated health care savings in the group of 80 was estimated to be $250,000. The Av-Med Study - 1993. This will have to end part 1 as the message is too long. I'll be right back with part 2. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 11th, 2003, 3:45pm Here we go with Part 2: Evidence for the Effectiveness of Chiropractic For Acute Low-Back Problems: "For patients with acute low-back symptoms without radiculopathy, the scientific evidence suggests spinal manipulation is effective in reducing pain and perhaps speeding recovery within the first month of symptoms." - Clinical Practice Guidelines, AHCPR (1994) For Long-Term Low-Back Problems: "There is strong evidence that manipulation is more effective than a placebo treatment for chronic low-back pain or than usual care by the general practitioner, bed rest, analgesics and massage." - Spine, Van Tulder and Bouter et al. (1997) "...improvement in all patients at three years was about 29% more in those treated by chiropractors than in those treated by the hospitals. The beneficial effect of chiropractic on pain was particularly clear." - British Medical Journal, Meade et al. (1995) "Manipulative therapy and physiotherapy are better than general practitioner and placebo treatment. Furthermore, manipulative therapy is slightly better than physiotherapy after 12 months." - British Medical Journal, Koes et al. (1992) For Pain: "...patients suffering from back and/or neck complaints experience chiropractic care as an effective means of resolving or ameliorating pain and functional impairments, thus reinforcing previous results showing the benefits of chiropractic treatment for back and neck pain." - Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Verhoef et al. (1997) "...for the management of low-back pain, chiropractic care is the most effective treatment, and it should be fully integrated into the government's health care system." - The Manga Report (1993) For the Elderly: "[Elderly] chiropractic users were less likely to have been hospitalized, less likely to have used a nursing home, more likely to report a better health status, more likely to exercise vigorously, and more likely to be mobile in the community. In addition, they were less likely to use prescription drugs." - Topics in Clinical Chiropractic, Coulter et al. (1996) For Containing Costs and Getting Workers Back on the Job: "The overwhelming body of evidence" shows that chiropractic management of low-back pain is more cost-effective than medical management, and that "many medical therapies are of questionable validity or are clearly inadequate." - The Manga Report (1993) First contact chiropractic care for common low back conditions costs substantially less than traditional medical treatment and "deserves careful consideration" by managed care executives concerned with controlling health care spending. - Medical Care, Stano and Smith (1996) Synopsis of Cost Effectiveness Research Manga, Pran. "Enhanced chiropractic coverage under OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) as a means for reducing health care costs, attaining better health outcomes and achieving equitable access to health services." Report to the Ontario Ministry of Health, 1998. This study demonstrates the ways in which individuals in Ontario are deterred from the use of chiropractic care because it is not covered under OHIP. Greater chiropractic coverage under OHIP would result in a greater number of individuals visiting chiropractors and going more often. The study shows that despite increased visits to DCs, this would result in net savings in both direct and indirect costs. It is very costly to manage neuromusculoskeletal disorders using traditional medicine. If individuals were able to visit chiropractors under OHIP a great amount of money would be saved by the government. Direct savings for Ontario's healthcare system could be as much as $770 million and at the very least $380 million. Mosley, Carrie; Cohen, Ilava; Arnold Roy. "Cost-effectiveness of chiropractic care in a managed care setting." The American Journal of Managed Care 1996; 2: 280-282. In this study the cost of health care for back or neck pain for individuals belonging to an HMO who used chiropractic care or other methods of treatment were evaluated. In this study the cost of surgery, use of diagnostic imaging, and the satisfaction of patients were evaluated. Claims that were paid from October 1, 1994 through October 1, 1995 were evaluated and analyzed. The cost of healthcare for back and neck pain was much lower for patients using chiropractic care than those using other treatments. Surgical costs and the satisfaction of patients was nearly the same for those who used chiropractic care and those who did not. The conclusion of the study is that chiropractic care yields similar outcomes to other forms of care at a much lower cost. Turns out this part is too long, too. Stay tuned for Part 3 |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 11th, 2003, 3:48pm Ok, I think this should do it. I have noticed that the Canadian study has been repeated several times, but I was in a rush to get this out to you. Enjoy ! Johnson, Marjorie. "A Comparison of Chiropractic, Medical and Osteopathic Care for Work-Related Sprains/Strains." Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics 1989; 12(5): 335-344. This study analyzed data on Iowa state record from individuals in Iowa who filed claims for back or neck injuries in 1984. The study compared benefits and the cost of care received by individuals from MDs, DCs and DOs. There was a focus on individuals who missed days of work and were compensated because of their injuries. Individuals who visited DCs missed on average at least 2.3 days less than individuals who visited MDs and 3.8 days less than individuals who saw DOs. Less money was dispersed as employment compensation on average for individuals who visited DCs. On average, the disability compensation paid to workers for those who visited DCs was $263.66, $617.85 for those who visited MDs, and was $1565.05 for those who visited DOs. Nyiendo, Joanne. "Disability Low Back Oregon Workers' Compensation Claims. Part II: Time Loss." Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics 1991 14(4): 231-239. Report on loss of time for individuals who visited DCs and those who visited MDs for treatment of low back pain. Median missed days of work for individuals with similar severity of injury was 9.0 days for those visiting DCs and 11.5 for individuals visiting MDs. Individuals visiting chiropractors more often returned to work having missed one week or less of work days. There was no difference in time lost for individuals visiting DCs and MDs with no previous history of low back pain. The median of days missed of work for individuals who had chronic back pain and visited MDs was 34.5 days while the median of days missed of work for those visiting DCs was 9 days. Stano, Miron; Smith, Monica. "Chiropractic and Medical Costs of Low Back Care." Medical Care 34(3): 191-204. Comparison of health insurance payments and patient utilization patterns for common lumbar and low back pain for patients who receive treatment from MDs and DCs. The results found that there were lower costs for episodes in which DCs were the first providers. The mean total payment when DC's were the first providers was $518 whereas the mean payment for cases in which a MD was the first provider was $1020. "Utilization, Cost, and Effects of Chiropractic Care on Medicare Program Costs" Muse and Associates. American Chiropractic Association 2001. Study examines cost, utilization and effects of chiropractic services on Medicare costs. The study compared program payments and service utilization for Medicare beneficiaries who visited DCs and those who visited other types of physicians. The results indicated that chiropractic care could reduce Medicare costs. Medicare beneficiaries who had chiropractic care had an average Medicare payment of $4426 for all Medicare services. Those who had other types of care had an average of $8103 Medicare payment for all Medicare services. The per claim average payment was also lower with chiropractic patients having an average of $133 per claim and individuals who did not have chiropractic care had an average of $210 per claim. And this is just the tip of the iceberg Guys and Gals. NOW ON TO ACUPUNCTURE ! Tell you what, I'm going to give you a break here. Below are two links to the National Health Library outside of Washington, DC. This is a link to their home page http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nlmhome.html This is a link to the page on acupuncture with over 2300 entries. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/cbm/acupuncture.html#25 As I said before, my life is pretty crazy right now and I will not do ALL the work for you. I've got lots more to say if there are any questions or anything else. Just let me know PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by cathy on Jun 11th, 2003, 3:59pm [ PFDAN to all - even the uninformed, the beligerent and the bullies Dell[/quote] This is the sort of thing that lets you down....!!! Also this is a CH site not a back pain site. Cathy |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by brain_cramps on Jun 11th, 2003, 4:01pm I think I might have logged on to LowerBackPain.com by accident this morning. ::) grant 8) |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by oringkid on Jun 11th, 2003, 4:54pm Oh come on! We've had lots of different topics on this board! I find it all interesting. Now, I don't believe Chiro will help CH and Dellp has admitted to that freely! Did anyone look at the acupuncture links I posted? Dell, did you look at them? Ueli? Anybody? LOL One thing this has done. It has made me decide to ask you Dell about my neck pain LOL! Could you come and take a look? LOL Actually I'm not kidding. Course I don't have ins. or money right now. So even if you give me a referral to a good one, I can't go now, so, if you find yourself in Western AZ, or Southern NV or Southeastern CA could you come see me? I went to the ER a coupla weeks ago with terrible pain and stiffness (which I've had before) and numbness in both hands and arms (which I hadn't had before and why my hubby took me to ER) and the doc had me squeeze his fingers and he looked at my neck and that was all! Tried to give me a script for narcotics (I declined) and gave me a script for flexeril and some sleeping pills (when I asked how I was supposed to sleep with the pain) and charged me $245.00. No x-ray no nothin'. When I asked what he thought it was, he said "Oh you probably have some spinal disease" I know, ER docs are not supposed to be like reg. docs, but with numbness, I would have thought they would at least have done an xray! Oh well, what do I know? I think the cause is this damn computer! (But I can't live without it LOL) Now, somebody, read my links!!! LOL They address both sides and the problems associated with conducting traditional double blind controlled studies. Interesting stuff. I personally have my doubts about acupunture being effective in controlling or treating CH, but I sure wouldn't want to automatically rule out something that might, if not be the answer, be another part to the puzzle. Ok, flame me! I'm gonna go get some beer! Sherry |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by jonny on Jun 11th, 2003, 5:39pm Ok Kid....SHAADAPP...LOL ;D Theres your flame. How bout someone helping me out with the buldging L1 thru L5 and the damn sciatica that goes with it? Im dying over here! ............................jonny |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by oringkid on Jun 11th, 2003, 6:24pm Well, Jonny, IF you had read any of my links, you would know that acupuncture has been found to be NOT very effective on lower back pain. LOL Go have it sucked out. ;D (truly that is what they do now, if appropriate) Sherry |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by jonny on Jun 11th, 2003, 6:27pm on 06/11/03 at 18:24:09, oringkid wrote:
DAMN!!, You can write me a script anytime Doc Sherry ;D.....LOL ....................................jonny |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Mark C on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:08pm A Scientific Test of Chiropractic's Subluxation Theory The first experimental study of the basis of the theory demonstrates that it is erroneous. (http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/crelin.html) Includes the following.... "Chiropractic is defined in the dictionary as "a therapeutic system based upon the premise that disease is caused by the interference with nerve function, the method being to restore normal condition by adjusting the segments of the spinal column." [1] The International Chiropractors Association defines chiropractic as follows: The philosophy of chiropractic is based upon the premise that disease or abnormal function is caused by interference with nerve transmission and expression, due to pressure, strain or tension upon the spinal cord or spinal nerves, as a result of body segments of the vertebral column deviating from their normal juxtaposition. The practice of chiropractic consists of analysis of an interference with normal nerve transmission and expression, and the correction thereof by an adjustment with the hands of the abnormal deviations of the bony articulations of the vertebral column for the restoration and maintenance of health, without the use of drugs or surgery. The term "analysis" is construed to include the use of X-ray and other analytical instruments generally used in the practice of chiropractic [2,3,7]. The definition given by the American Chiropractic Association is: Chiropractic practice is the specific adjustment and manipulation of the articulations and adjacent tissues of the body, particularly of the spinal column, for the correction of nerve interference and includes the use of recognized diagnostic methods, as indicated. Patient care is conducted with due regard for environmental, nutritional, and psychotherapeutic factors, as well as first aid, hygiene, sanitation, rehabilitation and related procedures designed to restore or maintain normal nerve function [2,4,7]. "Of the 43 pairs of nerves that pass from the brain and spinal cord to the various parts of the body, only 24 pairs could ever be impinged or encroached upon by the displacement of one vertebra against another as the nerves pass out of the intervertebral foramina. There is a superior and an inferior articular process posterolaterally on each side of a vertebra. Anterior to each articular process there is a notch; therefore, when the processes articulate with those of adjacent vertebrae above and below to form the vertebral column, a series of holes is formed -- the intervertebral foramina. [Note: "Foramen" is the medical term for an opening through a bony structure or membrane. The plural is foramina. The intervertebral foramina are the openings between the spinal bones through which the spinal nerves emerge from the spinal cord to connect to other parts of the body.]" "This experimental study demonstrates conclusively that the subluxation of a vertebra as defined by chiropractic-the exertion of pressure on a spinal nerve which by interfering with the planned expression of Innate Intelligence produces pathology-does not occur. This is what should be expected when one recognizes that the vertebral column has been evolving for over 400 million years to support the body and protect the central nervous system. By a process of natural selection the vertebral column of mammals has evolved into one in which the articulations allow an overall range of motion so that individuals may function well for survival within their environment. At the same time the selective process has favored vertebral columns that have spacious intervertebral foramina in combination with the barest minimum of displacement between adjacent vertebrae-two factors that preclude impingement upon the spinal nerves as they pass through the foramina." |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Mark C on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:09pm "Chinese medicine," often called "Oriental medicine" or "traditional Chinese medicine (TCM)," encompasses a vast array of folk medical practices based on mysticism. It holds that the body's vital energy (chi or qi) circulates through channels, called meridians, that have branches connected to bodily organs and functions. Illness is attributed to imbalance or interruption of chi.. Ancient practices such as acupuncture, Qigong, and the use of various herbs are claimed to restore balance." "The conditions claimed to respond to acupuncture include chronic pain (neck and back pain, migraine headaches), acute injury-related pain (strains, muscle and ligament tears), gastrointestinal problems (indigestion, ulcers, constipation, diarrhea), cardiovascular conditions (high and low blood pressure), genitourinary problems (menstrual irregularity, frigidity, impotence), muscle and nerve conditions (paralysis, deafness), and behavioral problems (overeating, drug dependence, smoking). However, the evidence supporting these claims consists mostly of practitioners' observations and poorly designed studies. A controlled study found that electroacupuncture of the ear was no more effective than placebo stimulation (light touching) against chronic pain [3]. In 1990, three Dutch epidemiologists analyzed 51 controlled studies of acupuncture for chronic pain and concluded that "the quality of even the better studies proved to be mediocre. . . . The efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of chronic pain remains doubtful." [4] They also examined reports of acupuncture used to treat addictions to cigarettes, heroin, and alcohol, and concluded that claims that acupuncture is effective as a therapy for these conditions are not supported by sound clinical research [5]." "In 1995, George A. Ulett, M.D., Ph.D., Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, University of Missouri School of Medicine, stated that "devoid of metaphysical thinking, acupuncture becomes a rather simple technique that can be useful as a nondrug method of pain control." He believes that the traditional Chinese variety is primarily a placebo treatment, but electrical stimulation of about 80 acupuncture points has been proven useful for pain control [8]." "The adverse effects of acupuncture are probably related to the nature of the practitioner's training. A survey of 1,135 Norwegian physicians revealed 66 cases of infection, 25 cases of punctured lung, 31 cases of increased pain, and 80 other cases with complications. A parallel survey of 197 acupuncturists, who are more apt to see immediate complications, yielded 132 cases of fainting, 26 cases of increased pain, 8 cases of pneumothorax, and 45 other adverse results [11]. However, a 5-year study involving 76 acupuncturists at a Japanese medical facility tabulated only 64 adverse event reports (including 16 forgotten needles and 13 cases of transient low blood pressure) associated with 55,591 acupuncture treatments. No serious complications were reported. The researchers concluded that serious adverse reactions are uncommon among acupuncturists who are medically trained [12]." http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/319/7203/160 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=9717924&dopt=Citation That's enough for now. I am willing to investigate any and all claims made in the successful treatment of CH. I ain't no Doctor......but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night! PFDAN's Mark |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by jonny on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:12pm You have Way to much time on your hands, Bro!!...LMAO ;D ....................................jonny |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by 9erfan on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:24pm dell- what's the deal with all the lower back pain studies?? nobody here is disputing that chiropractic may work for lower back pain....but we DON'T CARE about lower back pain (sorry). What about clusters? I've tried several acupuncturists over the 18 years of clusters...not one of them worked. The last one told me "I have no idea what to do with you" after working on me for 18 weeks. You getting relief from acupuncture after 3 weeks really doesn't tell us anything except that you had 3 week cycles. I use to have 3 week cycles when I was episodic! I tried to stay out of this thread too...but just couldn't... Virginia |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 11th, 2003, 7:27pm The trouble with us is that the evidence for the usefulness of chiropractic from those on the board is pretty sparse. One thing I do know is that we’ve tried just about everything to kill the beast. If chiropractic worked, clusterheads would be running clinics or in the business. Believe me, when something is proven effective or somewhat effective, it gets lots of good attention. Oxygen is probably the best example of this. When something is found otherwise, we speak our minds. It keeps this a place of critical thinking and one that looks for plausibility. I wish it was an effective answer or some magic bullet but so far, our experience has been otherwise. Every time I see an article on acupuncture, it’s a different story. I have to think that we’d be all over it too, if it were effective. Think about it. Chiropractic has been around for more than 100 years and has been “persecuted” for just about the same. Chiropractors spend too much of their time telling us this. Lots of stuff in your post, and an awful lot of it from chiropractic sources but not all. Lots of work for you anyway. I can’t say you aren’t sincere. Mean old Charlie |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 12th, 2003, 1:21am Sherry, Would love to be able to help with a referral but I retired from practice almost 10 years ago. Ask everyone you know if they know any good chiropractors (or anyone to stay away from,) - more people see them then you know. I'll send some other tips by email tomorrow. Haven't gotten to your links yet, ISP kept dropping me and couldn't get on earlier. I will check them out - Promise. :D Mark, Good to see you lookin & searchin & doin your homework. I've only taken a quick look at the chiro info and found some major problems with the study: 1- Newborn infants do not have bony spines, they are mostly cartilage 2- ribs are removed. each rib attaches to two vertebra with a total of 4 articulations (joints) so all this stabilization has been removed. 3- distal section of nerves have been removed - any traction effect from the removed section changes the position of the nerve as it leaves the foramen. 4- as little as 5 - 10 mm/Hg of pressure on the nerve is enough to effect function and/or blood supply to that nerve. I did not see any referrence to any pressure measurements being taken. I'll take another look as time permits. Virginia, Sorry to disagree but Ueli said something to the effect that chiropractic is a sham and didn't work for anything - that's what started this whole thing. As for the acupuncture, only one method has worked consistently for me - the Five Element Technique as taught by Dr. Worsley. To be honest here, I know a Doctor of Oriental Medicine, now in CO, that has a very low regard for Dr. W and says she is far from alone in this opinion. All I can say is that it has worked for me. The three periods I went without this particular treatment, the cycles lasted from 8 - 10 weeks. The 3 week thing is a misunderstanding - the line referred to was an indication that one time it took 3 weeks to get total relief. Typically relief began after 1 or 2 treatments diminishing the severity of the HA. Total relief was most often achieved by the end of the second week. And I am STILL trying to find out if any CH treatment failure (or success) can be attributed to the Worsley application of the Five Element Technique. If you can find the names of those acupuncturists and their general location, I would like to check with them about the technique they used. Charlie, Wish I could say something good about chiro and CH but it just ani't so. I appreciate the critical thinking here, that is how I am approaching this acupuncture thing - just wish I could get a little more help. BTW, I can tell you're a real softy under that hard shell - is that an M&M I see dancing on your posts? ;D Think I'm going to try to get some sleep now. Had a tooth pulled today - totally unrelated to the HA - which has woken the Beast a few times. So it goes. Thanks y'all. You are appreciated. PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 12th, 2003, 6:34am Thanks I guess Dellp but I'm careful in my posts to you because I LOVE this this stuff and we haven't had many threads on the new board where we old cogers get to exercise our vitriolic natures. God, it's fun :D http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/WHIP SMILEY.gif Hope yer tooth is better. Sweetness and light old Charlie |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 12th, 2003, 8:02am Thanks Charlie, love your graphics ;D LMAO Dell |
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Title: FYI DellP Post by Ueli on Jun 12th, 2003, 9:50pm Up to now I thought FYI was used in cyber space meaning "For Your Information". So when I opened the thread that calls my name, I thought dell was going to inform me and others where my argumentation in the Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=meds;action=display;num=1036479389) post went astray, in his opinion. But instead of contradicting my arguments and answering subsequent questions, dell wrote many pages about the tribulations some alternative treatments had to suffer and how an extensive lobbying brought nevertheless some recognition of the scams. To this he added a lengthy commercial for his 'arts' - one of the kind we are used too from the 'alternative' side: Not building up on the own success (he can't as there aren't any) but by quoting some ridiculous numbers and generally slinging mud at the opposition. How about this: Of 300 million Americans how many see a MD in a year? 30 million, or 100 million? Most of them get a cure, or at least some relieve. A small fraction can't be helped, according to dell 0.15 million. Nobody ever said that western medicine was perfect, and have you ever heard of un-curable conditions? How many have to bite the dust because they seek medical attention far too late, having wasted valuable time as they fell too the lure of the 'alternatives' and realized only when it was too late they can't get help there? Record of the acupuncturists: A few deaths from infection of the needles, a small fraction cured from psychosomatic problems, some who believe their natural recovery was due to needlework. The big rest at least got slimmer, on their wallet. As I was no longer sure of the meaning of 'FYI' I went to http://www.acronymfinder.com/ and found the 6th Interpretation given there (the 'alternative' form) fits when I say: |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 13th, 2003, 6:57am Hello Everybody, Woke up 5AM this morning with some strong shadows running around my head. Decided to wait before using the O2. As soon as I sat down in the dark living room, it hit me - no, not the Beast - a thought, an intuition: Ueli has replied. No that’s an erroneous statement, let me restate that, Ueli has posted. The shadows started to recede - could there be a connection? NAH - couldn’t be! Not long after I started this thread people told me in both public and private - “Be careful with Ueli.” “ Don’t mess with Ueli.” “When Ueli makes a statement you’d better answer it.” “Ueli takes his number very seriously.” Well OK Gang - LET’S PLAY THE UELI GAME ! "So when I opened the thread that calls my name, I thought dell was going to inform me and others where my argumentation in the Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine post went astray, in his opinion. But instead of contradicting my arguments and answering subsequent questions, dell wrote many pages about the tribulations some alternative treatments had to suffer and how an extensive lobbying brought nevertheless some recognition of the scams." My first post was about Chiropractic and Acupuncture. Your first response to me was about both Chiropractic and Acupuncture. Before I answered, I made this statement, “So let me know now whether you are really going to listen and consider the possibilities or if you will just stand your ground and be beligerent” The answer seems pretty clear. You will just ignore anything you don’t like. "To this he added a lengthy commercial for his 'arts' - one of the kind we are used too from the 'alternative' side: Not building up on the own success (he can't as there aren't any) but by quoting some ridiculous numbers and generally slinging mud at the opposition." Commercials. You want to talk about commercials and ads? What about drug companies… no, let/s not. I don’t even want to open THAT can of worms. If I talk about my successes it would only be anecdotal evidence and you asked for scientific studies. (And for the umpteenth time, I have never - got that, NEVER said chiropractic was a good treatment for CH. Lots and lots of other successes for lots of other conditions, yes, but not one for a clusterhead. Ya got that one right.) Mud slinger, yup, that's me. Got that one right, too. "How about this: Of 300 million Americans how many see a MD in a year? 30 million, or 100 million? Most of them get a cure, or at least some relieve. A small fraction can't be helped, according to dell 0.15 million." How about THIS: I didn’t say this ‘small fraction’ ‘can’t be helped.’ I said these people are DEAD. Dead from taking PRESCRIBED medication AS DIRECTED. That small fraction of .15 million ranks up there with fatalities from heart attacks, cancer or automobile accidents. "Nobody ever said that western medicine was perfect, and have you ever heard of un-curable conditions?" Un-curable conditions - like cluster headaches? "How many have to bite the dust because they seek medical attention far too late, having wasted valuable time as they fell too the lure of the 'alternatives' and realized only when it was too late they can't get help there?" I don’t know. Do you? How about a statistic. You seem to need statistics provided to you yet I have not heard a single statistic to prove any of you claims. "Record of the acupuncturists: A few deaths from infection of the needles, a small fraction cured from psychosomatic problems, some who believe their natural recovery was due to needlework. The big rest at least got slimmer, on their wallet." All this hullabaloo over Chiropractic and now you want to start on Acupuncture? PuhLEASE! Seriously, Ueli, you sound like an intelligent man, angry, but intelligent. Any time you want to have a calm, rational discussion, let me know, I would enjoy that. I would like that a lot. Ranting and raving filled with unsubstantiated, emothional claims is tough to debate. PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by BobG on Jun 13th, 2003, 7:07am Damn, this string is getting old. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 13th, 2003, 7:14am And I thought it was just getting good. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by KenB on Jun 13th, 2003, 7:35am Chiro worked for me (see my post on the Medications, Treatments etc. Board). Aside from the fact that it did work I would also be an advocate of the Chiropractic philosophy which deals with the cause rather than the symptom. If you haven't tried it - give it a go - after all it may stop you having to pop, inject or inhale various heavy drugs for the rest of your life. |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by CJohnson on Jun 13th, 2003, 7:56am Dell, when are you going to post something useful about acupuncture? Oringkid has posted more information than you, and she did so just for the fun of it. You claim to have a desire to champion the cause of detemining if acupuncture has a useful prophylaxis for CH, yet you only produce a couple of generic links, and no supporting commentary. However, you go on at great length to support the legitimacy of chiropactic. It looks like all you want to do is defend chiropractors and "win" arguments. Whatever your objectives, you have failed to reach them. The idea that you want to find out if certain schools of acupuncture are effective is lost in the sea of irrelevant discourse. As far as I am concerned, all you want to do is argue. Here are questions that it would be interesting to see you answer: 1. Do you have any idea what the mechanism of CH is? 2. Does acupuncture act on any of these mechanisms. Do yourself a favor, and go into the archives and read some of Ueli's posts. Go ahead and go back to the 90's and read some of his posts there. When you are thus enlightened, please come back to the board and, after a heartfelt apology to Ueli, please champion acupuncture in a way that is not consistent with someone who is bitter over a lack of respect. PFDANs Curtis |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 13th, 2003, 9:20am Curtis, After I made that last post, laying in bed, I realized there was more to say and you bring up one particular point in particular: respect. I am not "bitter" over a lackof respect, but I have a really tough time showing respect to those how don't show it to me. Your are right and I will be the first to admit that I am the newbie here and do not know anything of what Ueli has done for the board in the past. All I know is that, from the little I have seen, it is he that is totally without respect. Every one who knows me knows I am a gentle, kind and very laid back individual. It is rare for me to get riled. About eight months after I came to San Antonio to manage a large retail operation, and the owner had asked several times if I ever got angry, I did get angry at one of the employees. After I told the 70-something retired Air Force Lt. Colonel what happened, he broke out in a huge smile, gave me a high-five and had to go into his wife's office to tell her all about it. After spending time and energy doing what was asked of me and having it basically ignored and insults thrown in my face, I got really pissed. Sorry, no apologies to Ueli, I think he is the one that should apologize to me. About the mechanism of CH, I know what I've read here. As for your other question, let me give you a quick answer before I am late for work. 2. Does acupuncture act on any of these mechanisms. A. Acupuncture and chiropractic are very closely related in that they both work to balance the body. Chiropractic works through the neuromusculoskeletal systems, Acupuncture works through a subtle energy system call Meridians. So the short answer is no, ACPT does not DIRECTLY affect these systems - it intentionally does not directly affect any of the body's systems. Give me some time and I will do some more research. Thank you for the respect and courtesy of civil questions without the attack. PFDAN and I'll be back later, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 13th, 2003, 9:59am Ueli, Look, Curtis is right. I am sorry to have flown off the handle here, but you HAVE been a little rough on me. I'm not here to piss anyone off, just trying to share what I can with other people that share a horrible malady. I understand there are a lot of charlatans out there, but I am not one of them. I am not here to run any scams, take anyone's money or to make enemies. All I ask is for a little respect. This is one of those times when a little can go a long way. If you can do that, you've got a new friend. PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 15th, 2003, 8:10pm OK, the time has come for me to admit that I am a computer idiot. This site is my first venture into a mb and I have never done any type of medical research before. I must be missing something. >:( :( I have found lots of abstracts on a large variety of clinical trials/research studies but have been unable to retrieve the full report. >:( ??? I have tried to cut and past Journal titles, study titles, id numbers and just about everything I could think of and couldn't do it. NIH, the National Library of Medicine, Acupuncture.com, .medicalacupuncture.org., acupunctureresearch.org., nccaom.org and many more. Nothing. Here is one abstract I was trying to follow-up on: Acta Anaesthesiologica Scandinavica, 1992 Aug, 36(6):519-25. (UI: 92383960) Pub type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article; Randomized Controlled Trial. AT: UCLA siomed W1 AC7175 (PE title: Acta anaesthesiologica Scandinavica.) Abstract: PURPOSE: Acupuncture treatment of patients waiting for arthroplasty surgery. METHODS: 29 patients with a total of 42 osteoarthritic knees were randomized to two groups. Group A was treated while Group B served as a no-treatment control group. After 9 weeks Group B was treated too. Analgesic consumption, pain and objective measurements were registered. All objective measures were done by investigators who were "blinded" as to Group A & B. In the second part of the study 17 patients (26 knees) continued with treatments once a month. Registration of analgesic consumption, pain and objective measurements continued. Total study period 49 weeks. RESULTS: Comparing Group A to B there was a significant reduction in pain, analgesic consumption and in most objective measures. In Group A + B combined there was an 80% subjective improvement, and a significantly increased knee range movement - an increase mainly in the worst knees. Results were significantly better in those who had not been ill for a long time. In the second part of the study, it was shown that it was possible to maintain the improvements. CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture can ease the discomfort while waiting for an operation and perhaps even serve as an alternative to surgery. Seven patients have responded so well that at present they do not want an operation. (USD 9000 saved per operation). There are many good sites for GENERAL INFORMATION on acupuncture; I particularly liked: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ (Ya can see I'm not a total idiot! ;D) Sherry's post awhile back does have some other good links, too. Thanks Sherry. If you are counting on me to get this info I am going to have to disappoint you. Sorry. I just don't have enough time to contiune the search - and besides, it's driving me absolutely BATTY ! Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Slammy on Jun 16th, 2003, 2:43am Fuck me! This is a great thread! One of the best I've seen in awhile! Keep it up! I have enjoyed reading it and the references! A Slammy tip, though.... Debate the issues, not the persons! ;D Slammy 8) |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 16th, 2003, 6:17pm The thing is Dell that with all those terrible, lethal, misused, and drug-company sponsored Frankenstein-like procedures, there is a remarkable body of verified evidence of success. This cannot be said, in any real sense, for spinal manipulation and replacing bolts and washers along our meridians. To be sure, you’ll find endless testimonies and studies by those with an interest in only good results. Lots and lots. The same cannot be said for that horrible western medicine. Both good and bad results are there for any being’s amusement. Keep it up kids. Like Slammy, (good to see you by the way) I like things like this. It’s a fun thing to read while we digest the other stuff. It’s good for the system. Charlie |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Peppermint on Jun 16th, 2003, 7:13pm on 06/16/03 at 18:17:44, Charlie wrote:
Well said Charlie & Slammy. This type of stuff is like roughage. Keeps all the garbage moving along. I better shut up now before I trip over my tongue. Later!! |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by dellp on Jun 17th, 2003, 8:44am OK guys, ya got me. Chiropractic is a fraud and there is no scientific proof of effectiveness. The Manga Pran Report is a hoax. The suggestion that the national health insurance program of Canada can save $380 million to $770 million by sending patients to Chiropractors instead of medical doctors was really drempt-up by a group of chiropractors (cleverly not mentioned in the referrence section of the report.) There was no scientific information used when reaching the conclusion: it was cleverly suggested by these chiropractors that the administrators could just take these monies, spend it on sex and drugs then write it off as a business expense. SOLD! ;D BTW - I called my father in Florida for Father's day to check-in and see how he is doing. (This is a true story here.) He's had back problems for over 4 years as a result of a serious systemic infection - been through a couple surgeries and the whole nine yards. He goes in next week for the 12th invasive procedure and has dicided that if there is no significant, lasting results like before, he is going to see an Acupuncturist at the hodpital and have Medicare pay for it. (I Swear to God I did not recommend this - several of his friends did.) After hearing all the sound, scientific evedence against ACPT on this post I am sure this guy just snuck into the hospital and set up shop in a janitors' closet. He must be submitting false bills to Mecicare claiming bypass surgery so he can get payed. I had better call my father and warn him! :o But seriously, while I have you here, I'd like to pick your brains about tryptophan. It all seems too simple and I need to know the flaw in my logic. (Not chiropractic, not acupuncture...tryptophan, we're talkin tryptophan here.) The technical stuff is from OUCH.com 1Imitrex is very successful in aborting CH 2Imitrex is the brand name for sumatriptan 3Sumatriptan is an agonist for 5htpt - serotonin 4An agonist is partially defined: "2. In pharmacology, a drug that binds to the receptor and stimulates the receptor's function." Therefore, for all intent and purpose, the body considers sumatriptan to be seratonin - it binds to the receptors and activates them. 5CH seem to begin in the suprachiasmatic nuclei in the hypothalmus which seemsto be mediated by serotonin QUESTION: Why would ingesting large quantities of tryptophan, the building blocks of serotonin, and increasing the blood levels of serotonin, not be effective as a preventive for CH? PFDAN to all, Dell |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by CJohnson on Jun 17th, 2003, 12:27pm Dell, I followed the same line of logic a while ago, and it does seem so simple. However, after thinking about it for a while, I had to ask myself the following questions: 1. Is it really a lack of brain serotonin which is the mediating factor in the mechanism of CH? 2. If so, is it because there isn't enough serotonin in my body, or is it too little of the serotonin that is passing the blood brain barrier and reaching the CNS? Medina et al (1979) found modest elevations of serotonin in whole blood during attacks of cluster headache, whereas platelet serotonin levels fall precipitously during migraine attacks. Waldenlind et al, (1985) found low whole blood serotonin levels among cluster patients both during an active bout and during remissions, comparable to levels found among migraine patients. 3. Is it an abundance of some other neurotransmitter or any other type of molecule active in the CNS, that is interfering with serotonergic neurotransmission? 4. Sumatriptan binds with 5HT1a and 5HT1d receptors. There are many other types of serotonin receptor. Furthur, during an attack, levels of vasoactive intestinal neuropeptide and calcitonin gene related peptides are markedly raised. Sumatriptan binding to 5HT1d receptors normalizes these levels just as they are normalized from spontaneous remission of the attack. Serotonin binding to whichever receptor it "wants to" may not normalize these levels, or act, in some way, to inhibit the CH mechanism. 5. Is it a problem of how a neuron behaves, during a cycle, when its serotonin receptor is activated? For example, the presence of some chemical keeping an ion channel from opening when it normally opens when its 5HT receptor is occupied? Or vice versa? Remember, verapamil is a first line preventative for CH, and its mode of action is to block calcium ion channels. It is definately worthwhile to pursue the tryptyphan route, and there would be much interest in how the ingesting of mass quantities affects CH. However, I won't be giving my credit card number to anyone any time soon. :) Hope you didn't get scammed. I wish your father the very best. PFDANs -Curtis |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by eyes_afire on Jun 17th, 2003, 5:56pm Hi DellP. My only guess is it's probably not effective for similiar reasons why SSRI's are usually not beneficial for CH. I've taken 3 or 4 SSRI's and none of them ever did anything good for my CH. Curtis... good observations. --- Steve, one of many... |
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Title: Re: FYI for Ueli and others Post by Charlie on Jun 17th, 2003, 10:01pm Sorry about your father and I too have reservations about back surgeries. I know too many people who have had very poor results and little help. It is something I'd consider after several opinions. As you well know, it's not a game. Good luck to you and your father. All we ask is one thing at a time. I have almost no experience with drugs for CH and the others here actually know what they're doing. By the way, Medicare is well-known to pay for all kinds of nonsense. So are some other health plans. Charlie |
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