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        New Message Board Archives >> 2003 Posts >> Thoughts on vasodilation
        
(Message started by: CJohnson on May 15^th, 2003, 2:38pm)

Title: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by CJohnson on May 15^th, 2003, 2:38pm

My understanding is that dilation of blood vessels along the trigeminal nerve is the cause of CH pain, and that the cause of the dilation is unknown, but heavily speculated upon. Is this correct?
-Curtis

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by echo on May 15^th, 2003, 2:42pm

I'd agree that speculation of this being the culprit is an accurate statement. Then you dig deeper and come across some that want to open the head and bypass the vessels to prove the point. I for one - am not game for that. I've got enough problems the way it is. No need to go searching for it.

Signed - Echo, don't need a drool catcher yet, Echo

I know - 2 echos - stick with me. echo.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Drk^Angel on May 15^th, 2003, 2:43pm

It is considered one of the steps contributing to the cluster pain as far as I have read. Of course, there is also other steps in the series that lead up to the attack as well.

PFDAN.............................. Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by don on May 15^th, 2003, 2:50pm

The dialation does not CAUSE the pain but is a culprit by pushing against the nerve endings in your squash.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Mikey on May 15^th, 2003, 2:51pm

Of course no one knows for sure, that is the question.
I feel like it is one of the major parts of the problem, but just like DRK said, i believe that there are a lot more things that are involved. Such as the Hypothalamus and the signals it sends to where ever. It's just all a big question to me and i've racked my little brain just trying to figure it out, knowing i never will.

Mikey, ???

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Drk^Angel on May 15^th, 2003, 3:00pm

Don... It doesn't press against the nerve endings... It presses against the nerve itself. Sorta like if you hit your funny bone against the edge of a desk or something... It doesn't hurt because you hit nerve endings... It hurts because you hit the nerve that gets pinched between the desk and the bones of your arm.

PFDAN...................................... Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by CJohnson on May 15^th, 2003, 3:01pm

So then, the nerves cause the pain and the blood vessel dilation causes the nerves to cause pain? If we count the steps in reverse order would it go:
1.CH pain caused by
2.Compressed nerves caused by
3.Vasodilation caused by
4.Unknown

-Curtis

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by jonny on May 15^th, 2003, 3:14pm

on 05/15/03 at 15:00:35, Drk^Angel wrote:

. Sorta like if you hit your funny bone against the edge of a desk or something.

CHRIST!!!!

Keep that talk down, I hate when that happens...DAMN ;D

.................................jonny

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Bob_Johnson on May 15^th, 2003, 3:20pm

Just read an abstract of an article by Dr. May, one of Dr. Goadsby's primary associates. Their group's position is that Ch and migraine originates in the brain (exact mechanism still not understood) and that vasodialation is a secondary effect, but not causal.

But the focus is on nerves as the generator of the pain.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Elaine on May 15^th, 2003, 3:24pm

In Dr Goadsby book Cluster Headaches and related conditions on page 112 it says....

Cranial Vessels

In the main, patients with cluster headaches and its related syndromes complain of pain that is boring rather than throbbing, although this is not exclusively true. In a similar way to migraine, vasoconstrictor compounds, ergotamine derivatives, and sumatriptan have been shown to be effective acute anti-cluster-headache agents. However, the vascular action of oxygen are less prominent, and indeed lignocaine is not a general vasoconstrictor, yet both are helpful in cluster headaches. In the same way as migraine, cluster headaches is much more complex than merely due to vasodilation.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by BobG on May 15^th, 2003, 3:36pm

If you click on the OUCH web site button you may find some information on this subject.

Click this to get started then scroll down

http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/general/index.htm

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by cootie on May 15^th, 2003, 3:36pm

Note.....I am a supporter not a suffer but here goes....I don't mean to git out of my area here. I have a real nasty problem with 'brain freezes'.....ok.....there noted as simlar but caused by a situation.....not a disease. Comes from frozen drinks esp thru a straw that directly hit the veins in back of the throat (my terminology sucks in this area).....I get em so bad there disable'n and last several minutes (no I ain't whinein)....I got 5 today on the way home from errands from a frozen coke and one eye went blurry and teary and same with my sinus and eye pain (side of my rib cage also hurts so bad when I get them I can hardly breath )....and I only get them on ONE side of my head ever. I couldn't handle the car it got so bad and got one after the other tho which has been odd (even after I stopped drinkin the pop deal). OK...point is....is this the same vascular nerve "effect" deal......if so it does kinda prove a point with the pain and what directly causes with blood vessels pushin on that nerve....but of course not a CH with me. Tryin ta cover my ass so I don't get flamed fer jumpin in here curious Pam :-/

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Drk^Angel on May 15^th, 2003, 3:58pm

Never had a brain freeze, so I have no idea... But then again... I've never had a brain either, so dunno what's up with me..

PFDAN..................................... Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by CJohnson on May 16^th, 2003, 9:13am

OK. The role of vasodilation in CH is unclear. However, there is always the presence of vasodilation, therefore, it can be concluded that there is some relationship, however abstract, between abnormal vasodilation in the region of the trigeminal nerve and the acute pain.
Why, then, the vasodilation. In a very broad sense, there can be the following reasons:

1. The brain has decided that it is necassary. There are a number of natural and important puposes for vasodilation. Among them, temperature regulation, combatting injury or infection, etc...

2. A malfunction of some aspect of the mechanism which regulates vasodilation has occured.

Which of the 2 is it? Are there more possible reasons?
-Curtis

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Ted on May 16^th, 2003, 9:33am

on 05/16/03 at 09:13:07, CJohnson wrote:

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with this statement 100 percent. I mean, I think you're probably correct that there is a relationship, though it may be an abstract one. But I don't think we can absolutely conclude this until we understand why they've been able to detect the vasodilation begining after the pain has started in a few people.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by CJohnson on May 16^th, 2003, 9:35am

Have there been tests that show pain comes before vasodilation, or vice-versa?
-Curtis

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by Ted on May 16^th, 2003, 9:40am

Yeah. It's been a year or so since I read that paper but I think it's in the OUCH library.

Title: Re: Thoughts on vasodilation
Post by CJohnson on May 16^th, 2003, 10:29am

Following infection or injury, mast cells release vasodilators which increase capillary permeability allowing plasma and leukocytes to leave the bloodstream and enter the tissue
Appenzeller et al (1981) found that mast cells, the major repository of histamine in many tissues, are found in increased number in the skin of the painful temporal area in cluster headache patients; this effect is particularly striking within the first 10 hours after a cluster attack.

Does this suggest that the brain has somehow determined that injury or infection has occurred in the area where the pain occurs?
-Curtis

Title: from Drummer
Post by rumplestiltskin on May 16^th, 2003, 10:43am

Here's a link from the old board that may or maynot have some of the info you seek.

From it I cut this quote...so I have something to tell people who ask me "what's a Cluster?"

"Pain afferents from the trigeminovascular system transverse the ophthalmic
division of the trigeminal nerve, taking signals from the cranial vessels
and dura mater. These synapse in the trigeminal nucleus caudalis and then
project to the thalamus (ventroposterior) and lead to activation in cortical
areas, including frontal cortex, insulae, and cingulate cortex, RESULTING IN
PAIN."

They usually respond "yea...I used to get those too!"

ANYWAY...enjoy this.
http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages/47287.html