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Title: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by Bob_Johnson on Apr 20th, 2003, 10:42am Drawing a few thoughts from my rather diverse experiences: 25-yrs as a mental health counselor, participation on CH.Com for a long time, and from other sites dealing with prostate cancer and, one breed of dog. What strikes me is how alike men and women are--in these very different settings--on how they cope with stress/distress/problems. Broad brush strokes here, to be sure, but: Women more than men, tend to express "guilt", "flawed", "inadequate", "bad mother" (in relation to their dogs!). Men more likely to respond with: denial/avoiding, fear, anger, or action (what do I DO?) Each style has its pros & cons but--for purposes of this message--I want to focus only on how the "guilt, bad, flawed" style affects the person--in the context of a highly personal disorder, cluster headache. Guilt--whether rational or non-rational--tends to move us toward: powerlessness (can't help myself), anxiety, depression, and withdrawal. Guilt over a disorder/disease is NOT a rational reaction. None of us can show how a moral failure (=source of guilt) has caused our cluster headaches. But both kinds of guilt will lead to emotional distress (if not outright suffering). (It's not unusual to see messages about -- "guilt" over my CH. I've never read a man write about "guilt" over having prostate cancer. Just one of the differences which stimulated this message.) I'd be interested in reading your thoughts about this before I write anything additional. |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by jonny on Apr 20th, 2003, 11:46am I have no guilt about any one damn thing, I just wish someone would return to me what is rightfully mine...My EZ bake oven with the many fruit toppings and that really cool light bulb inside. Mom never read the warnings to me so I was burnt often, one day I stuffed Mom in the oven and hooked up a high voltage enhancer, I calmly asked Mom "How do you like me now?" ;D File under "M" for mental case ;D |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by Roxy on Apr 20th, 2003, 12:00pm on 04/20/03 at 10:42:20, Bob_Johnson wrote:
From this woman's perspective, guilt has never entered into the equation. Shit happens. It's not your fault, my fault or anyone's fault (in the immortal words of John Wayne). Shit just happens, and when it does, you smile and make the best of it, then get on with life. There are only so many things we can control in this life, and how we deal with this condition is one of them. on 04/20/03 at 10:42:20, Bob_Johnson wrote:
I very much agree Bob. If you had lung cancer.....yeah, a little guilt over smoking might be warranted. If you were driving drunk and hurt someone.....yeah, definite guilt. Let me repeat myself......Guilt about something over which you have no control is a damn waste of time. Time that you could spend looking for someway to control the situation. Just my humble opinion, Tracey |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by catlind on Apr 20th, 2003, 12:49pm Bob, Very interesting thread. A couple of observations I have noticed in my life: 1. Women want to talk things out, express themselves, and work through things on their own terms. Men are fixers. You sit down to talk to them about something and they have an inherent desire to 'fix' the problem. 2. Women are born with the ability to manipulate. (My daughter is a pro and started at 4 months of age). Guilt is a classic tool used in child rearing. Mother's happen to be MASTERS at guilt LOL Other than that, everything you say makes perfect sense hehe. Guilt over an affliction that just is, is a waste of time and energy. Time and Energy that can be better used to focus on how to maximize the use of your 'up' time. I have psoriasis, an incurable skin disease now known to be an autoimmune disorder. It's no different than CH. I've got it, it can't be cured, move on. I can't tell you the mechanics of how to move on, each person has to define that themselves. But I bet Bandlers 120 foot argon green Jesus could teach some folks a few lessons :) (Disclaimer: If you've ever heard Richard Bandler speak that statement will make perfect sense, otherwise you should ignore it as there is no malice or other meaning intended) Cat |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by ave on Apr 20th, 2003, 1:04pm Bob and Catlind - in my 20+ years on a helpline I have found that MOSTLY, Men analyze a problem, come up with a probable cause and a possible solution, THEN phone you and ask for one tiny bit of information. Regardles of whether they were competent to make the assessment or recommend the solution. I see them do it on this site as well. Women see a problem, call you up and say, do you have any idea what this can be and then tell you at length and in detail what's going on. Men's problems tend to get treated wrong because they won't open up about it and think they can do it all by themselves. Women's problems tend to get treated wrong because dragging everything in, will detract from finding out what the problem really is. But hey, luckily the majority of men and women will listen when I talk to them. |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by BobG on Apr 20th, 2003, 9:22pm I'm kinda new to this board but, The bigest difference I see between the coping skills of women and men are that the women know more swear words (and use them without guilt) than the men. ;D |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by cluster0557 on Apr 20th, 2003, 11:01pm on 04/20/03 at 10:42:20, Bob_Johnson wrote:
To say the least in the years I have had Clusters I have not felt guilty that I have the damn Cluster itself but guilty to what it does to my family. I can't control what is screwed up in my head. Thus no guilt. Even though I don't feel direct guilt re: what I go thru I do feel very guilty when I see the pain my wife goes thru when I am in deep Cluster cycles. Others are correct when they note differences in that men tend to attempt to fix and not communicate and women communicate all the time. But not as it relates here. One thing I see here is that on this forum both Men and Women communicate in their own ways so that the sterotype is worth diddly. I have observed communication thru humor, anger, compassion and just plain and simple conversation. Everyone seems to have their own style but in fact it is all for the same purpose. To help each other thru the beast. Whether it is Man vs a Women the goal seems constant. My nickels worth....... |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by Not4Hire on Apr 20th, 2003, 11:19pm .....most interesting..... and since I agree that men and women are Entirely Different Species with completely different views of Reality/Relativity... I gotta say that Bob brings a question worth pondering... "What do I DO?" vs. "How do I FEEL?" (gross simplification alert!)...since MEN first ventured from the cave to look for something to eat, they had to either produce results or go hungry... guilt is just....counter-productive. WOMEN are more...intuitive(?) and I think they spend more time thinking. Which leads to SELF analysis more than "Damn, I'm hungry...think I'll kill that bear and eat him..." ...then ya got the previous posts.....and the WOMEN (so far) seem to agree with the EAT-THE-BEAR mentality. 'Course the WOMEN *here* are different than most I've met.... tougher and more willing to call "Bullshit!" than most. ave's post strikes a real chord: Quote:
"everything" is probably more productive ...in the long term... because the more ya know the better you can cope... as far as CH goes: I never felt *guilty* about it...pissed off, because it gets in the way of the rest of my life, but then, I'm a MAN...and that bear is lookin' to get his a$$ kicked... I hope this thread gets some more discussion...I'll be watchin'.... (got NO clue about the *dog* thing tho......?) |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by fubar on Apr 20th, 2003, 11:40pm Oh my God, what a great thread. You say guilt over something you cannot control is not a rational reaction, and I have to agree. In fact, I’d take it step further and say (to the MEN) that stress, anger and furor over things that you cannot control are equally insane. This is something I have to tell myself on a daily basis, as I find myself reacting to things that are completely not within my control. What a waste of energy and time! Clusters are certainly in this category. I don’t really even care anymore. I know I don’t control the headaches, and I also know they don’t control me. I think I’m the winner. Sure there are times they really mess with my life, but I can’t prevent that so I might as well deal with it. And the pain? God, I’ve stopped wondering where the ‘highest’ pain level is… I seem to find new levels so often. So what? I know this for sure… It can’t kill me me unless I let it make me kill myself, which just ain’t gonna happen, so it just can’t kill me. Knowing that, I buckle down for my little cluster-ride a couple times a day and have stopped worrying about *that*. Instead, I worry about what’s important, like my kids or making good use of my ‘up time’. -Fu |
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Title: Coping technique--#1 Post by Bob_Johnson on Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:37am Looks like the choir members are talking to one another. These responses are from folks who understand the problem of misplaced guilt. Going to post under, Coping technique--#2, a short section from a larger piece I wrote (but not posted) on coping. (The whole piece won't fit on the new ch.com format but you can write to me privately if you want it.) Ave: your comment about men avoiding is the primary reason that prostate cancer is the seond leading cause of cancer deaths: they avoid getting exams. Fubar: many thanks. |
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Title: Coping technique--#2 Post by Bob_Johnson on Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:39am (Before moving on, you may recognize this concept as the core of cognitive therapy or Rational Emotive Therapy. These therapies are rooted in the basic idea that how we think about an experience creates corresponding emotional reactions--for good or bad. The research on the effectiveness of this approach is very good; outcome research shows that it is an effective form of therapy for depression, anxiety, and addictions of various types.) Cognitive therapies teach people to recognize: A. These thoughts may be spontaneous and automatic but, B. They are not rational thoughts, and so, in their very lack of reason they, C. Stimulate emotions which are disruptive, distorting, and which intensify the difficult experience of CH and, D. This style of non-rational thinking and the associated emotions tend to spill out (generalize) into our larger lives affecting relationships, our beliefs in how effective we are, how well we are able to run our own lives, and so on. IF (and this is often difficult to both see and to accept!) we can begin to see HOW our thinking may not be fully rational and HOW these ways of thinking feed our SUFFERING--then it may be possible to change our thinking habits. The next step--past a willingness to consider that we may be thinking this way--is to learn how to dispute with ourselves, that is, how to argue that our own thinking is not reasonable, that it is self-harming. Then we learn how to change these thinking habits (with the goal in mind that by changing how I think about my experience will change how I feel, how my emotions affect me.) (Understand that this is an outline of a fairly involved process. I'm just trying to quickly summarize how this method of self-help works. Sources of material are at then end.) So, let's go back to the sampling of expressions which we see in our messages about CH and see how cognitive psychology would deal with them. 1. "CH is horrible; it never stops!" First, recognize the despair and hopelessness which arises from this statement: where will this line of thinking take me? So, we learn to respond more rationally, i.e., "Yes, it's hard pain--but it has always stopped even when I don't treat it. I can survive this attack as I have every other one. I need to do what I know helps." The long term effective of this change in thinking is to increase self-confidence and a sense capacity to benefit ourselves. 2. "I can't bear the pain!" Response: "I always have. I know pretty much what to expect; I've got some medication which helps. I can bear the pain because I always have!" Notice, this is not a denial of the pain; it's not a "let's pretend". The goal is to deal with the reality of temporary pain; pain which, as bad as it is, has always stopped with our return to reasonable well being. It is the denial of this, our personal experience, which arouses suffering and despair. 3. "It's not FAIR!", or thoughts of GUILT, or that I'm being PUNISHED. Response: "This is my body not working right; it has nothing to do with morality or sin or fairness. My job is to care for ME, NOW, not fret about fairness." (The consequence of an appeal to "fairness" is that we become victims. The problem with "guilt" is that we have to find a "sin" which justifies having CH or we must convince ourselves that we have chosen CH to avoid something or to hurt someone, hence, our sin. In the end, this line of thinking is not reasonable or rational and serves to create more suffering.) 4. "CH is the WORST thing in my life!" I often see folks express in their messages a sense of anticipation, of feared expectation about the next attack of cycle. There are few responses which lend themselves to the development of suffering better than this one: waiting for pain; looking for the next sign; assuming that it will come. Reflect a moment on what the impact is on our emotional well being and you may begin to appreciate why changing thinking habits is of value. How to respond? "It is the worst experience--when it's occurring--then it's over and I return to my full life. My whole experience says that I'll come through the next one--when and if it comes. I don't have to wait and look for it; there is living to be done, now." If you are interested in exploring this way of altering your thinking habits there are three readily available sources of information: 1. Go to Amazon.Com and put "rational emotive therapy" in the book search box. 2. Go to www.rebt.org and get the catalog. (This is the homebase for Dr. Albert Ellis, the founder of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.) 3. Look for a paperback, FEELING GOOD: THE NEW MOOD THERAPY, David Burns, M.D. While this title is written around the issue of depression, the general framework can be applied to coping with cluster headache. This is true for many of the titles you will find at #2; REBT and Dr. Burns' cognitive restructuring approaches have been used for a wide variety of problems--the general framework is fairly universal, in this sense. |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by cluster0557 on Apr 22nd, 2003, 1:06pm on 04/20/03 at 23:01:36, cluster0557 wrote:
Bob although your coping number two addresses the clusterhead and the direct issues they face the indirect issue of the guilt impact to others is still an open wound to me. I have learned how to cope with how clusters affect me. I have accepted how to cope with the pain. What is hard to accept is the affect on my family and the guilt of what I put them through each and every day they have to witness what I am going thru. This is hard to self focus onto myself. I can accept it, but, as a realist I see their pain caused by me dealing with the beast. Do I hide in a closet? My poor spouse wants to help me. How can she? That is the defered guilt that our supporters have to deal with each and every day they have a different sword to bear even though we can learn to individualy cope. So in a quick summary coping #2 helps the clusterhead, but we also need to help our support groups cope also. |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by oringkid on Apr 22nd, 2003, 2:08pm Excellent thread! I cope with my clusters without guilt or anger (I'm female) as I recognize them as a medical problem. However, I too, was raised and tempered with guilt. I have a terrible time shedding it. I think, that it has become more habit than actual feeling and that is VERY difficult to correct, although, I am getting much better at catching and switching and/or analyzing those thoughts. I think men tend to be misdiagnosed or remain undiagnosed (on any number of things) due to societies (or even natures) pressure to make man the "stronger" sex. Therefore, an admission of "weakness" or "infirmity" does tend to make a man feel guilty. But, as guilt, being prevalent and obvious in women, would be perceived as yet another sign of "weakness", men react differently to that feeling. Usually with anger. --an example-- my parents live on a steep hill down to a creek, rocky soil. My father had made steps, by leveling an area and putting wood around it. My mother, pregnant with my brother, slipped on some loose rocks and twisted her ankle, just one of those things... my father, instead of going to her and helping (once he saw she was not badly hurt of course) proceeded to angrily and violently sweep the steps, cussing the whole time. He felt guilty! I also have noticed, that it is mostly the men here that express feelings of guilt over the affect that their CH has on their wives/girlfriends and family. I believe that is also due to our (the females) sense of guilt!! When I have my CH's, my husband is supportive and will say "I wish there was something I could do to get rid of those" but, he does not fall apart, run around, cry, or give me the worried/sad/big eyes...... but that is exactly what many women would do! I think the female partners of the male CH'ers are feeling guilt themselves, at not being able to help their husbands! I bet, that they would act exactly the same if the husband had broken a leg or something. So, I think, it is really just in our natures (or at least has been bred into us) to act this way. No, it is not good and it needs to be changed, but I think I understand how it comes about. Sherry |
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Title: Rather, an opportunity to use #2 Post by Bob_Johnson on Apr 22nd, 2003, 2:19pm 0557: "Guilt" means that you set out to hurt your family or have done so by indifferenct carelessness. You know this is not the case. But this word carries an emotional loading, i.e., "I'm bad", increasing your distress. Isn't it more on target to say that you are hurt by their awareness of your pain? You are concerned that what they see in you will hurt them in some way? But we are not "bad" because of our illness. You cannot help them until you are clear in you thinking. When clarity comes, you can help them learn to understand and bear with their upset which they feel over your pain. "(W)e cannot love unless we also consent to be loved in return." Their concern for you is their expression of love; accepting their upset, helping them understand and bear it, is your love returned. |
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Title: Re: Male & Female Coping--A Difference? Post by cluster0557 on Apr 22nd, 2003, 2:27pm Bob, Thanks for the perspective. I agree. :D Thats why I am a computer jock and you do what you do. You do it well. :) Thanks. |
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