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Title: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:39am Im a peace protestor, and NO supporter of Saddam Huessein. I attend the protests because this IS STILL AMERICA, and i feel my voice is under-represented and SEVERELY distorted by the media. I have no probs with the soldiers, or them doing their job. I pray for their success and safety. My gripes are this .... the buildup to this war has been Totally Mismanaged from day one! Nobody is arguing that Hussein should stay in power ... he is a dicator and should be ousted. Our Great Country (no matter how important we feel we are) is STILL ONLY 7% of the world's Population and So if we are a democratic country in a democratic world - we will have 7% say in what happens. IF we REALLY believe in Democracy (in the USA and globally) then we should adhere to that process and not go if we don't have the votes. Just as in the situation in Turkey 90% of the population was against us basing operations there ..... so that's life, that's democracy in action. Love it or leave it & become an imperialist, lol. im not against military action to remove Hussein either ... but geez, why not just keep doubling the inspectors each month for 6 months, send in multinational UN peacekeeping troops to keep em safe and THEN knock off Hussein with a Drone? The UN/US would already be all over the place to keep the peace and then you don't have to waste troops lives, and destroy the friggin infrastructure with a full scale Invasion. not to mention we are SCARRING MILLIONS of CIVILLIANS FOR LIFE WITH PTSD from BEING BOMBED for freedom. (sure their lives already suck ... but now it sucks more) If we ARE so bad ass .... why be so heavy handed, why not be creative and careful in this internationally delicate situation? ALSO - how much of the iraqui military is VOLUNTARY? I would imagine quite a few of those "targets" we are killing would RATHER be home with their families, but have been forced to be out there getting blown up. So it sucks for them too ... they are not just Faceless haters of Freedom, they are people too ..... uneducated people living under propoganda for a long time. They have SOULS just like WE do, OK? If you are a Christian and you believe that humans have souls and are valuable to God, then EVERY CASUALTY, IRAQI or USA should counted as a vote against the success of this war. The more lives lost - the more pointless the war is. If the true Goal is disarmament and regime change (and not piles of dead iraqis) ..... then total death cont is a side effect by which to measure how efficiently/sloppily we were able to make that happen. For HALF the cost of the Payoffs to "allies" and the cost of this military campaign ....... we could have given every iraqi citizen 100,000 US$, a water purifier, 10 bags of grain, a microwave and a color sattelite TV that only carries USA propoganda. Then would they still "hate" us? These trade embargos have simply made the people of iraq more dependent on goverment services for their basic needs and unable to revolt. They are like the hostage victim that starts to be attached to their abductor .... shall we punish them further for this sad fact? part 2 next .... lol |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:42am Another post mentioned a story wherein a russian woman asks whats so great about America? and a young woman answers "I can come visit you in your country, can you come visit me in mine?' Well that's part of how our poorly thought-out reaction to 9-11 has gotten us going entirely backards. NOW *** NOW *** I can't just go visit that Russian woman and Gloat about my freedom, UNLESS I subject myself to microscopic inspection, racial profiling, a new Passenger "threat rating" that let's you fly or not depending on "factors not disclosed to the public" lol. So you cant fly but you dont get to know why ...... just like uh ..... Russia? lol. Maybe even based on the new legal warrantless snooping on what WEBSITES you visit. Sounds like were not as free as we think? What are we defending again? FREEDOM? What if just maybe .... just maybe "THEY" already WON? We have lost our guaranteed liberties, our privacy, become isolationalist, pissed off our allies, lost ALL world the sympathy that poured out after 9-11, pissed of the Arab league .... and now were over there freaking out the entire region against the advice of most other developed nations. Maybe this is the kind of Insane, Reckless, Self-destructive reaction that Osama Bin Laden was hoping for ...... check this for some IRONY "We should not march into Baghdad," George Bush Sr. wrote in his 1998 book, A World Transformed. "To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero...assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war. "It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability." - President George Bush Senior, 1998. It's not that simple as "freedom hating terrorists" friggin read some of the reports on Terrorism put out by the Dept of Defense, OK? The motivations are COMPLEX and POLITICAL and mostly have to do with US being over there messing around with their governments for the last 30 years! That's a Fact jack, they don't just blindly hate americans and freedom ..... any more that we sit around Eating apple pie and singing the national anthem all day. If we left them alone and phased out GASOLINE so they werent so rich ... things would change. the only "freedom" Bush is concerned with is the "freedom" to send Haliburton over there to put out the fires/rebuild and make his pals a big chunk of change ..... Anyone reading this notice ONLY USA companies were considered for the contracts? lol. heh. So ..... long post. Final Words. I support the Troops, I support All human Life, but There is more than one way to skin a cat - we can do better than this and should always strive to find NEW WAYS OF SOLVING CONFLICTS ....... I know youre gonna say weve tried everything on Saddam, BUT NO, you have NOT - There are 1billion ways to remove that regime other than haphazzard Invasion. And remember as this gets worse ..... we attacked first in this one (No - don't say 9-11, that was Osama, not Hussein) , against the advice of others who are normally WITH us! it's the first "pre-emptive" war in modern American history. So 'we' CHOSE to be there, nobody forced us .... the grim results are ENTIRELY our Responsibility. ok ... flame away, im ready. Beat me to death with american flags if that's what you want. I have reasons for my beliefs just as you do, and my hedaches hurt JUST as bad as YOURS! ~michael c |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by thsa/simon on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:43am Once upon a time it was thought that the world was flat. If left to a vote, it might still be. Don't be fooled into thinking that the majority is right, just as the most powerful isn't always right. The problem is that we have a global problem at the present time called terrorism. Its just not in the Middle East, it's everywhere. We (the US) have ignored it for the most part and someone finally brought it to OUR shores. Now for the most part, we were content to let others bomb us in foriegn locations (African embassies, USS Cole, etc.) because some silly Americans always say 'well, we shouldn't have been there'. Now that might be true that we shouldn't have been there, but that doesn't justify MURDER. Seems to me, that they didn't want to negotiate resolutions to have us removed. They already feel that death and destruction is the way to play the game, so we have entered the fray. Sorry you don't like it, neither do I, BUT IT IS HOW THE GAME IS BEING PLAYED. Terrorists cannot make missles; they can't make C4; they can't make biologics and nerve agents (remember the attack in Japan?); they have to have government ties with facilities to make these items or they must BUY them from others. This is a FACT. So now that we have identified a government that is suppling, training, and catering to terrorists we are trying to remove him. We know he has used biologics and chemicals on his own people from the many substanciated reports. Why would you want to leave this guy to the UN? Let me remind you that the UN has yet TO STOP ANY WAR in its long glorious (insert sarcasm here) history. They are like the parent that thinks you can reason with a two year old. YOU CAN"T. It's like the threat of a spanking that you are never going to go through with. As soon as the child figures that you will NEVER hit them no matter what they do, they do what ever it is they wish. Now as soon as someone who is against all this can come up with a plan that the other side will agree to we are stuck in this battle to remove a guy that has: 1) shown a desire to invade and occupy other countries, 2) murder his own population with chemicals and biologic agents, 3) condone rape and terror within his own borders by his own personal militia, 4) trained and financed terrorist to operate outside his borders, 5) AND SOME THINGS THAT I STILL CAN'T TELL YOU ABOUT. YOU ALL DON"T HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WITH WHICH TO MAKE A RATIONAL CHOICE. Let me tell you something, this guys isn't Hitler....he's STALIN. Get out your history books. NOT the ones from 1980-present with the revisionist's politically correct versions; get the ones from 1950-1980. No one could really reason with Stalin either. So when you all come up with a plan that Hussein will think is a good idea ( NOT JUST YOU THINK IS A GOOD IDEA ), feel free to enlighten all of us who have tried the negotiate peace though resolutions. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm convinced that many just don't get it. This guy doesn't care what you think, he wants you dead. Reason with that! simon |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by BobG on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:44am michael............ I disagree with almost everything you said but I'm not going to pick it apart. You have the right to say what you did no matter how wrong you are. But, I have to say this...........DUCK! There's going to be some IN-coming on your head :o Now go to the peace march and start a really big fire, beat the hell out of some pro-Americans and loot a few stores but do it in a peaceful manner. Have a nice day ;) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by cbolony on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:03am michaelc you and all your protestors should go to Iraq on the front lines and hold up your Stop This War signs. I will bet you that saddams people will put a bullet in your head.When the first American got killed in action all you left wingers should get behine the great USA and stop all the bullshit |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by sailpappy on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:36am ;D ;D I enter this thread with a great deal of hesitation,but I must address your point about us only being %7 of the world population, This may be correct, maybe not, however this small percentage, manages to supply humanitarian aide to about %40 of the rest of the world. We are FREE, in the ironical sence that we have self imposed our own restrictions and safeguards on ourselves with Democratic Procedure in a system that is pleagued with coruption at every corner and level of Government. It works to a %90 degree of effenciency. but as long as there is money involved there will be people that abuse their power. Your comment about being a Christain should bring to bear the thoughts, born out in the Bible, that the "Yellow Race" will rule the earth. Gee! I wonder who that could refer to? Asia has %73 of the world population and up to now their voices have been muted by regiemes like Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Linen Chairman Mao Tse Sung and the like that Mute their citizens with tactics all similar in methodology, speak out and die! Act out and die! Rebel and Die! Have to many Children and Die! Are you starting to get it? Did you also protest against Clean nuclear power or are you happy with polluting the world and being dependent on fossile fuels. I have done the same thing as many ,many thousands, or hundreds of thousands have done in the past, Fought for your right to have an opinion, protesting isn't the problem its ignorance of the reality of the affect of the protest. If we all had protested instead of defended your many might be a little asian sounding now! Like Asa Hole! JMHO! Pappy http://www.gifs.net/animate/sungulls.gif http://www.gifs.net/animate/sailboat.gif |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:40am Quote:
BINGO ! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:59am I must say michael, you have alot of guts to post that. I respect your courage to speak and act on your constitutional rights. I think you are dead wrong, but I respect your right to do so. Simon, you are so very right about all the things that the general population simply doesn't know. It's a shame we can't know it, but it's for the safety of lives that we can't. You cannot reason with a man that has to squat and lean on his left foot to shit. :-X Cat addendum: How much do you know about persia and messapotamia (never could spell that right)? How far back does your history go? Iraqis are a highly educated and cultured people. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by tanner on Mar 30th, 2003, 11:13am micheal, you seem like a bright enough guy but what part of Don't divide our public assets like police just to get your 15 minutes of fame don't you get. this should be a no brainer even for someone so obvoiusly lacking in the REAL LIFE understaning of how the world operates. I would wager that you and your kind would be the first to scream and cry foul if you get sniped by a dc sniper type or blown up by a suicide bomber while innocently sitting around with your martin sheen type lefty friends deciding where next to disrupt our lives! QUIT USING UP OUR POLICE AND HOME DEFENSE ASSETS WHEN WE NEED THEM MOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and when the current crisis is over i for one will be happy to debate your views on Freedom and Democracy and what they mean globally. in the meantime be careful what streets you lie down in with your peace signs, cuz i'm a real shitty driver........ tim |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Mar 30th, 2003, 11:31am I don't know if anyone knows this but I too am against this war. However, like Bob I too disagree with most of your post, Michael. And I agree with quite a bit of what Simon said here. One thing I disagree with Simon about is the assertion he made about Iraq training and supplying terrorists. Bush was asked quite often to supply information on this by the UN (and Americans) and he, via Powell, had nothing to supply. Don't you think if there was some proof of that and it wasn't just an unbacked accusation repeated daily until people started believing it because it WAS repeated everyday, that, if not the world, most of us against this war, would be completely for the war? Another thing that gets repeated over and over again is we don't remember or care about 9-11. That's so lame I'll let the ridiculousness of the statement fall on its own lack of legs. And a question for you, Michael. As far as only acting when the UN sanctions it, well, the UN (including the US) officially condemned Israel years ago for destroying an Iraqi nuclear plant that was making atomic bombs. SInce then the world has thanked Israel for what it did. Countries do have to do what they need to do to protect their safety, even if it flies in the face of the world. The problem is there's no evidence to show that's what we're doing here. If there was most of us would be for this war. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by nancyc on Mar 30th, 2003, 1:23pm This is a personal post from a military son's mom....STFU...at this point, i am against anyone protesting this war...NO, I hate war and so does everyone else here...but we are at war...every word you say, everything you do affects our sons and daughter's moral over there in Iraq....my son just called ..he is in the national guard..he shipped out to train in kentucky...he will be going to Kuwait around april 17th...he has a few short weeks to train to kill...they are failing all of their battle tests ...but they are still being shipped out...they are sending untrained men and women into war...but when I ask my son did he believe in what he is doing...HE said...YES...I am going to fight for my COUNTRY...so STFU .....if you care about the lives of our soldiers , then give them some postive strokes instead of negative ones..Do I want my son to go over there...Hell, NO...but I respect my son and I believe in my Country...as politically ignorant as I am, I do have enough sense to know that all the protests are effecting our soldiers....nancyc |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ree on Mar 30th, 2003, 2:51pm Michael.......ditto i disagree with you... another mom here and part of a HUGE military ancestry... can I ask you a question... Would you defend yourself if someone was trying to take your life, or the life of any member of your family, or would you idly sit by and let it happen? We know of the atrosities as well as those that happened in Germany long ago... this time we are reacting. Protest away Im glad your not my kid... and would proudly go to Iraq myself if it meant my kid could come home... Nancy you are in a panic!!! Of course they are not going to let him fight untrained hon... please dont panic. Your son is in great hands here. If not here he will be with seasoned people once he deploys... It will take him another month to get there by ship he is leaving on 4/17 you said... so that takes us to the midst of May... by then, hopefully he will be assisting in rebuilding whatever government is left and cooking for a bunch of happy to be alive men... My son was deployed a month ago and is just arriving this week... One Day AT A TIME Nancy.... like Sean said breathe and think of those there now and pray for them... love ya girly girl... but dont let this michael c guy think that we dont have things under control... be proud you did good kid! Your son is a hero... love ya me |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Mar 30th, 2003, 3:25pm Nancy, Ree, Fear not. We've got your backs. There is no one here that would DARE intentionally, or directly stand in your face. They would have nothing left to protest with if they did. Stand proud, you are wondeful mothers. Cat |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by thsa/simon on Mar 30th, 2003, 3:33pm Ted, Unfortunately, to divulge what info we have linking saddam to terrorists would make evident how we got it and then that door of information would close. I know this sounds like a rather lame excuse, but it is true nonetheless. During WWII, we had broken the axis code but had to pretend we didn't know of plans to keep that a secret. Many people died because we didn't act on information we had. Its not a thing that anyone can be proud of, but keeping the fact that we had broken the code a secret did save lives in the long run. I sometimes wish I could yell out all the stuff that I know to convince some people that what we are doing is right IN THE LONG RUN, but I can't even tell my wife. Just know, that I sleep well at night (when Im not having clusters.....and THAT we all know about =P) simon |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 30th, 2003, 3:46pm Ted, On the subject of disclosing intelligence (evidence)... Quote:
[snip] In one breath, Americans complain that we don't have enough 'intelligence' to stop terrorist attacks. In the next breath, they complain that the intelligence machine refuses to disclose sources of information. Maybe the American public is just a little too thick to understand that you can't have it both ways. Sure, you can have great intelligence machines that could possibly be misused (the great fear) or you could have no intelligence and be 100% reactionary to threats (after the fact). Part of me thinks the French were so forthright demanding the hard evidence from the intelligence community because *they* want to know our capabilitites and level of penetration in certain places. Even disclosing images is a tricky business. You really don't want the world to know exactly how capable our satellites are, do you? Maybe you have no clue what it takes to develop HUMINT in countries like Iraq. Imagery and communications intelligence can only give you so much, and even then, when it becomes obvious that those have been compromised, the enemy shifts tactics. Letting the world know what we know lets the enemy know how and who is leaking it, thereby compromising your own assets. We know plenty, and some of what we know would be hard to explain to the public, I'm sure. Doing so would also compromise the assets in place, leaving us even more vulnerable than we are now. Michael... although I consider you to be misguided, I'm sure your heart is in the right place. And, just because I consider you to be misguided, it's not necessarily so. It is still a free country, thank God. [snip] -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 30th, 2003, 3:57pm on 03/30/03 at 15:46:47, fubar wrote:
LMMFYBO!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ................................jonny |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by kissmyglass on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:04pm I'm ROTFLMAO Fubar.... ;D Kev C |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:20pm Well, I can't believe NOBODY even commented on the George Bush Sr. Quote ...... I thought it was very Interesting. Question: would I defend myself If attacked? Yes - of course, but would I also ...... go over onto their private property and beat them up, kill them, burn down their house, and then rebuild the house? Anyway my response to all the flame is simply what I ended that post with --- Quote:
Threaten me all you want (might makes right huh?).... keep on flaming ...... you guys probably think that FOX news is fair and unbiased, lol. But I wish you all the BEST luck in winning your personal WAR (against the BEAST) ~michael |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:29pm on 03/30/03 at 16:20:42, michaelc wrote:
from what I read nobody threatened you. What you are seeing is people speaking their mind just like you did.......got a prob with that? Me?....I say kill everyone with a towel on thier head. ........................................jonny |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by WendyHowe on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:36pm Michael I think you make some fair points but are terribly naive. You suggest that we should not have gone to war, rather that we should have put a lid on things and assassinated Saddam. Do you really think you are the first person to think this. Also, do you really think that it has been thought of but decided against. Do you really think Bush and Blair are so insane that they prefer to go to war and kill thousands. Wake up....... There have been consistent efforts to 'do away' with Saddam for years, efforts made by his own people and special forces from 'other countries'. One of the main reasons why we are now at war is because all attempts failed. Whilst this has been going on he has been growing in strength and gaining more support, allies and resources. He became too dangerous to leave alone, and seemingly too teflon-clad to be killed. I personally don't believe GB and TB are insane, nor power crazed. They are not wasting lives needlessly, they saw no other realistic option. I send my best wishes to our own board Mum's of service people, and all other Mum's out there on Mother's Day. Wendy |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by cathy on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:46pm on 03/30/03 at 16:36:03, WendyHowe wrote:
Ditto.... Cathy :) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Mark C on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:49pm |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 30th, 2003, 4:50pm Michael wants a comment on the Bush Sr. quote... Before I get to that, what makes you think people are threatening you? This is a discussion, and you have a right to your opinion. I thought it was extremely brave of yourself to post your views, knowing it would result in posts to the contrary, and possibly personal attacks. But I did not see anybody threaten you. Get over yourself. Secondly, George Bush (the father) is not the President now, nor was he President in 1998. He does not get briefs from the NSA, FBI, CIA or other agencies. He does not have access to intelligence that might sway him one way or the other. Before you assume that George W. is briefing his dad, you need to remember that would be an enormous security breach. Some information is for the President only, regardless. So, my comment is this. Bush needs and wants to explain why he did not finish Saddam off 12 years ago. He does not make or affect US policy with his current views. Regardless, I could find hundreds of quotes that seem contradictory if taken out of context. That comment was specifically in the context of justifying his previous actions, in my opinion. Most of your statements weren't worth debating. I don't care if the Iraqi soldiors are voluntary or not. They need to surrender or be killed. Pretty damn simple. They are the ones in control of their life. They can avoid all of this by standing up and helping take out the Ba'ath regime. If they do not, they will suffer. It seems to me they have a choice. We have done everyting possible to minimize civilian casualties. As for who gets contracts to rebuild... [snip]. Who is paying for the USA to rid the world of this evil dictator? I suppose we should let the French have all the rebuilding contracts, right? Or, are you assuming Iraq has that capability and we are 'forcing' them to allow American compainies to rebuild for them. Ugh. [snip] -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Lori on Mar 30th, 2003, 5:27pm I LOVE Fox News!! It's so nice to have a news outlet I can trust! on 03/30/03 at 16:20:42, michaelc wrote:
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jimbo on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:13pm Simon/Fubar Great retorts, 8)but lets remember: It is not fair to battle wits with unarmed people. ;D Seeya, Jimbo |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:13pm Quote:
I would if they were holding men,women and children hostage and torturing them. Or should I parade in front of their house with a picket sign? That'll scare em! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by nancyc on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:27pm This is nancyc's daughter in law , Ali. My husband is going to be shipped out on the 17th.And Ree, he has only had one week training...they are failing every battle test they do...so they really are sending guys in the national guard over there that are not prepared. My husband got in trouble with a commanding officer for telling them this. His response was "you are army now, boy, not national guard." But where is his full army training? My husband wants to go but he sure would like to be trained alittle better. He wants to come home to us. Ree, Nancy and I are praying for your son. Thanks, ALI |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by nancyc on Mar 30th, 2003, 6:29pm ps..jonny, ali and i love ya for watching our backs...and you too ree...smiles,nancyc ps teaching ali how to post on the mb so she can keep up with the protesters LOL |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:19pm on 03/30/03 at 15:46:47, fubar wrote:
FU, what a naive, gullible explanation. When the situation is that you don't want the other side to know what intelligence you have, even for fear that it'll dry up the source of information, you don't repeat over and over that we have any information since it is generally only a few sources that could provide it. And saying you have the info is as good as naming the source. I didn't mean to pick on just one naive, gullible statement of yours. Theirs an entire history of them to choose from. ;-) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Leesa on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:25pm Posted by Dave H. Let me start out by saying I am a Honorably Discharged Vet of Desert Shield and Storm. I served under Bush Sr. and LEFT when Clinton took office as I could not serve for a commander that I could not respect nor could he support me. Now Mychael lets talk about a few things. First you said: "im not against military action to remove Hussein either " If you are not against removing him then how can you say anything at all against the fight we are in. You can not remove a dictator by talk. You can not remove this dictator with his own people as they are affraid of him. He has already used chemical warfare on them once. Why do they have any reason to believe that he will not do it again. The only way to beat a bully is to show him you are not afraid of him and not turning the other cheek. Second: " send in multinational UN peacekeeping troops to keep em safe and THEN knock off Hussein with a Drone? Ok...We go in with a drone or special ops and knock off this dictator. How do you expect that to happen if we can not even get the backing of the UN now. You are telling us to do the same thing we are already doing but in a more underhanded way that can cause even more uprising from our so called allies or even the UN. Third"If we ARE so bad ass .... why be so heavy handed, why not be creative and careful in this internationally delicate situation? Do you not remember what lead to this war? We tried that road and the dictator did not want to play that game. He was able to remove his wepons of mass distruction before the UN could get into place to find them. There are several reports of a missing ship that has left Iraq just before the UN inspectors arrived. WHERE IS THE SHIP NOW? Why did a hospital have wepons and chemical suits on hand? Why are they finding schools loaded with wepons? Why are they finding historical landmarks set up as military bases? Why are simple families being torn apart yet again so that fathers and sons can be FORCED into fighting for someone they do not want in power? They lay down their arms and surrender so that they do not have to fight. I can go on and on picking you BS apart but one thing lays true You have the right to speak against WAR and you have the right to voice your opnions but threw out history your kind has caused more violance on our home land then any other. You are the ones who start the riots when you talk of peace. You are the ones who made our troops unwanted and hated on their home land when they were only doing what their goverment asked them to do! You are the ones who hurt our service memebers and make them feel unwanted in their home land. It is about time you started to think about who you are realy hurting instead of who you are speaking against!!!!!!!!!! Our service memebers and the Iraqi people need all of our support not your BS! Stand behind us or get the FU*K OUT. A PROUD US NAVY MEMEMBER AND US CITIZEN! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:31pm Ted, You and I come from different worlds. My background is 100% security-related, and I often lecture or train all over the world on security matters (D.C., Australia, New Zealand, UK, and yes, France among others). If you want to debate the naiveté of my statements, let's do it. If you had [snip] clue regarding what you are talking about, you would understand why it is so inflammatory. [snip] -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:42pm Im sorry to see Nancy's post about the soldiers being sent without proper training. Like I said ... I don't want to see any of our guys get killed and that sounds like they are just being sent out ready-or-not. As I said in the 1st post, I do not support Saddam and will be glad to see him gone. BUT I don't believe he was such a threat that we had no time to pursue other opitons for getting rid of him. The lead-up to this war was a load of Propoganda from our side on how easy it would be. this is from the washington Post: Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34283-2003Mar26?language=printer Sen. Robert Byrd Quote:
Commenting on the sudden resignation of Rand Beers, the National Security Council's senior director for counter-terrorism, the author of a book on the NSC, James Bamford, said that "There is a predominant belief in the intelligence community that an invasion of Iraq will cause more terrorism than it will prevent. There is also a tremendous amount of embarrassment by intelligence professionals that there have been so many lies out of the administration -- by the president, Cheney and Powell -- over Iraq." So whatever ... i'm not anti-US, OR anti-troops. I might not even be Anti-War if we had gone about it more TACTFULLY. I was suprised to see all the War discussion on this message board to begin with ... i thought this was a CH board. Gloat about your war when it's over and we see the real long-term effects. Hopefully they will be good and stabilizing for the region. I didnt really want to get into all this and will probably quit posting on or reading these threads, I'm here to help my CH not argue about politics. Anybody want to discuss ABORTION while we're at it? How about RELIGION? I'm sure we could all get into some good arguments over those topics too, lol. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:49pm on 03/30/03 at 20:31:45, fubar wrote:
FU, I see your rhetoric but I don't see you countering my points with any logical statements of why I'm wrong. Or do you think if you gave evidence of why I'm wrong in what I said it'll make your sources dry up? :-) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ree on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:53pm Michael you can argue with yourself... seems like thats what you want to do... Im done... ree |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 8:57pm Quote:
WTF are you talking about? Your comments are apparently misdirected towards me. If you'd like to actually discuss this rationally then ok. I live in nashville Tn and i will be glad to give you my address. I have friends in the military and i don't make them feel unwanted or unsupported. Nor do i start riots (you should look into COINTELPRO (look it up on google) and find out how the US govt infiltrates peaceful protests with provocateurs to incite riots, refer to the freedom of information documents/ court records that prove this stuff happens) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:44pm I Boston on Sunday there was a No War rally of 25,000. A large portion of the police, fire and ems were required to dedicate their time to the protesters. Left the city pretty vulnerable so that 25, 000 people of a city 5 times that size could rant, rave and bang drums. There was an unscheduled "die in" in the middle of Boylston street. A hospital access route. Our "protesters" refused to move. One protest sign read "Get Our Energy From the Sun". WTF ? Professional protester obviously got his protests mixed up. One sign read "American Troops Turn Against Your Commanders". A "Peace Activist" advocating violence. WTF ? Another had our nations flag emblazoned with a picture of Hitler. Do you really want us to take you seriously when you put lives at risk right here at home. Last time that happened was 9/11. We called them terrorists then. All in all your "Peace Rally", other than being offensive and endangering lives, was a good sound bite for Prozac. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Leesa on Mar 30th, 2003, 9:46pm As far as I know right now I'll be at the VA Hospital on April 4 and released on the 5th. You want to meet then be there in the morning! If anything changes I will post here to let you know. DaveH |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Mar 30th, 2003, 10:45pm Posting here as well "Regardless of how we feel about this war, we need to be responsive to and protective of any soldiers who take physical or emotional hits, as well as their loved ones sweating the operation from the home front. We all need to understand that the scars of war disappear from the hearts and minds of those who've either experienced them firsthand – or those who are their nearest and dearest – only when taps is finally played." David Hackworth |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 30th, 2003, 11:11pm Hi Dave H If you mean the VA over by Vanderbilt then sure. I work abut 2 miles from there and I'd be glad to get some coffee or whatever and discuss this because diversity of opinions is important - I am not going to try to change your mind about anything and will be glad to listen to what you have to say about all this. ~michael C |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Charlie on Mar 31st, 2003, 1:06am This administration loves this war and is the most secretive in history. They need to do better to get me on their side. It wouldn't take a lot either. People who are in possession of security information never reveal what they know nor that they have it. It's weird. I'm not one to run around carrying signs that I believe bring out the worst on both sides. Behaving like idiots, threatening deportation and other stupid stuff isn't the kind of thing people who support the war should point to as the way "patriots" should behave. Michael has a good heart, is a little naive but then that isn't bad and he does his homework. We can give him a hard time, but it looks dumb. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Mar 31st, 2003, 1:23am Charlie, Intelligence isn't always in the actual information that comes. For example, and in generics cause that's all I know: During operation anaconda freedom, Clark had to have his TS (top secret security clearance). It wasn't for the information he was getting, it was pretty much every day run of the mill stuff that anyone could know. But to sit in that briefy required TS clearance, becasue the SOURCE of the infomration IS top secret classified. Those are the things that as long as we live, I won't ever know. I'm probably not in the right mind to post this now, but I'm hoping I can get some of the idea across. Intelligence gatherins has many facets to ie, and most of the time, the infomation gained is not what is so secret. It's how it was gained. If you say we have an inside source the other side knows and starts killing people at random just in case. Just an example. I thought michaelc wrote a fair article, I deem it be wrong, be he spent some time understanding what he was writing, even if he didn't examine the whole picture. Okay, I'm done now. Cat |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Mark C on Mar 31st, 2003, 4:49am I have done a good job of staying out of this Policital Arena lately......but I cannot resist just one little shot at my friend Charlie..... ;D on 03/31/03 at 01:06:52, Charlie wrote:
That why it's called SECURE. ;D I hope none of you guys head is hurting, no matter what your slant. PFDAN's Mark |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by WendyHowe on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:46am Michael You suggest jokingly that we could debate Abortion and Religion as well. I'm afraid this and a lot of your posts suggest you are viewing this as some kind of intellectual debating exercise. This board is for Ch sufferers and it seems fine to talk about stuff that matters to us but: THIS IS NOT THE PLACE OR THE SUBJECT FOR INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION. You have the right to speak your mind, but beware playing debating games with vulnerable people. You know not what you do. They are hurting very badly at the moment and are scared for their husbands and sons. In my view you are making things worse in every way, not helping. Wendy |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by WendyHowe on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:47am Michael You suggest jokingly that we could debate Abortion and Religion as well. I'm afraid this and a lot of your posts suggest you are viewing this as some kind of intellectual debating exercise. This board is for Ch sufferers and it seems fine to talk about stuff that matters to us but: THIS IS NOT THE PLACE OR THE SUBJECT FOR INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION. You have the right to speak your mind, but beware playing debating games with vulnerable people. You know not what you do. They are hurting very badly at the moment and are scared for their husbands wives, daughters and sons. In my view you are making things worse in every way, not helping. Wendy |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 31st, 2003, 7:27am Debate is not a game ... it is a non-violent way for people to exchange ideas and communicate their feelings about important topics. did anyone think i was actually suggesting we debate those other topics? lol. That was my way of saying this shit is WAY off topic for this board, but if everyone is going to wave their flags, i'm gonna wave mine too. I have been very civil, refrained from personal attacks & insults and tried to say (in more than one way) that i am not Anti-usa or Anti-troops and have military friends. I simply don't agree with the way this whole scenario is being managed - IS THAT A FUCKING CRIME NOW? |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by echo on Mar 31st, 2003, 8:49am My 2 cents. Glad you were able to express your views. I'm glad I can disagree with you. American companies putting out the fires>> We can trust them not to flame our back sides. Haphazard invasion>> We only hear what the planners want us and the enemy to hear. If a graduate of the McNair war college tells us it's haphazard I'll tend to believe them. I hope that your statement of supporting the troops is true when these soldiers come home. I truly hope these men and women do not have to go through the crap my fellow Nam vets had to endure. I see someone dump a beer on one of these soldiers heads once they return and I know I'm doing jail time. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Mar 31st, 2003, 8:51am you and me both echo... Wonder if they have a CH ward in prison? Cat |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2003, 10:41am echo, Watching a returning soldier get dumped on would definitely make me do something drastic. Dunno if I'd end-up in jail, but somebody would end up in the hospital (probably me). -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Slammy on Mar 31st, 2003, 12:52pm on 03/30/03 at 20:19:25, Ted wrote:
I disagree with this, Ted. This is very over-simplified. Pretty much like: I slept with your sister, and only your sister knew. You confronted me with it, therefore, your sister must have told you. I spent most of the 80's working in the defense intelligence arena as an analyst of highly classified information. Most of these programs required clearances higher than top secret. As you know, the level of clearance one has is based on his or her " need to know". Many facets of that information can be the determining factor of the level of clearance it posesses. The source of the info, the info itself, who receives the info are a few of these factors. The source of the info could be from sigintel, satellite imagery, humanintel, or any other methodology. Saying you have the information does not divulge how you got the information. There were many times that I just had to laugh at comments made by "experts" or the press, who did not have access to such information. Their comments were very ignorant and seemed unintelligent on face value. But I had to remind myself that they did not have the information that I had to base their comments on. Now I say this to make a point. Our Intel capability is light years ahead of what it was in the 80's. Since leaving the defense arena in the early 90's, I have lost access to such information, but not the perspective. Therefore, I do not pyscho-babble on detail that I do not have access to. It has no value. But I base my position on a few simple points. As an American, I support what my country does, period. I might not agree on how it may arrive to a decision, but once the decision is made, I will support it. It may effect how I vote in the next election, but, nevertheless, I will support it. History will sort out the details, but it has no merit to argue positions of ignorance. 2nd, you cannot say; " I protest this war, but I support the troops". That is nothing but wishy-washy diatribe. To make the commitment of being prepared to give one's life to his/her country, making the ultimate sacrifice, is total and complete. The support they demand should be no less. I don't know what that means when one says they protest the war, but they support the troops. If a soldier dies as a result of the war, then you are saying that he basically died in vain. That's a hell of a way to support him. His/her death has been, is not, and never will be in vain. I'm sure that the Akbar was protesting something when he threw the grenades in the tents. When this country was founded, it's constitution was written over much debate. Spirited arguments were common, and protests were many. But once it was written, everyone supported it. Prior to going into Iraq, debates and protests were warranted and had merit. But once the commitment was made, that was the time to back the country. To protest after the fact is counter-productive and devisive. To think that such protests would have an impact on policy is nothing short of ignorance. Slammy 8) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Mar 31st, 2003, 1:09pm Thanks Slam dude. You are right on target. Now STFU ;D |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2003, 1:58pm Slammy, u da man. I think your comments hit the nail on the head. Can't wait to hear an entertaining (yet irrelevant) retort from the Ted wing. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 31st, 2003, 3:35pm http://tinyurl.com/8jfx |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by tanner on Mar 31st, 2003, 5:05pm slammy, i couldn't of put it better myself! actually, i couldn't have put it near as good,so WHAT SLAMMY SAID IN SPADES ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D tim |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by 2late on Mar 31st, 2003, 5:42pm slam...i agree 100%! don't think there's gonna be another Ted report in this thread ;D ........Jack |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 31st, 2003, 5:44pm on 03/31/03 at 17:42:21, 2late wrote:
LMMFYBO!!! ;D ....................................jonny :D |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:09pm Jonny, You been losing that yam bag a lot lately. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:11pm Ya, and its tough on me hole.....Damn thing hurts like hell!!!!! ...........................jonny |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:23pm Quote:
Gonna have to save that quote for when nobody knows what the hell it was really about. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:35pm James Webb, secretary of the Navy in the Reagan administration, was a Marine platoon and company commander in Vietnam. Commenting that there was a great difference between the expectations set up by this administration and the reality of what is happening. Quote:
ALSO why are we using depleted Uranium Shells still? Here is a Distinguished Military Man, patriot and Army Colonel who worked for the Dept of Defense in the 1991 Gilf-war cleanup commenting on it. "British and American coalition forces are using depleted uranium (DU) shells in the war against Iraq and deliberately flouting a United Nations resolution which classifies the munitions as illegal weapons of mass destruction. DU contaminates land, causes ill-health and cancers among the soldiers using the weapons, the armies they target and civilians, leading to birth defects in children. Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project -- a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defense with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up -- said use of DU was a 'war crime'. Rokke said: 'There is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction -- yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'Such double-standards are repellent. According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts. DU has been blamed for the effects of Gulf war syndrome -- typified by chronic muscle and joint pain, fatigue and memory loss -- among 200,000 US soldiers after the 1991 conflict. It is also cited as the most likely cause of the 'increased number of birth deformities and cancer in Iraq' following the first Gulf war In 1991, the Allies fired 944,000 DU rounds or some 2700 tons of DU tipped bombs. A UK Atomic Energy Authority report said that some 500,000 people would die before the end of this century, due to radioactive debris left in the desert A study of Gulf war veterans showed that 67% had children with severe illnesses, missing eyes, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers. Rokke told the Sunday Herald: 'A nation's military personnel cannot wilfully contaminate any other nation, cause harm to persons and the environment and then ignore the consequences of their actions." __________________________ So Fellow CH'ers: Not all Military people or Patriots are in exact agreement about this very comlpicated situation. Dont call me un-patriotic and stupid because I don't share your exact views, when you are perfect and omniscient -- then go ahead and cast your stones. ;) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:40pm I didnt even read your post but ill throw rocks at you just for posting a post that long.......LMMFYBO!!!!!! ;D .....................................jonny :D |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Slammy on Mar 31st, 2003, 6:50pm on 03/31/03 at 18:35:23, michaelc wrote:
Ok, Michael, I will only quote you so far: What is your position? Can't figure it out because it seems to change hour by hour? You first called yourself a " Peace Protestor" What the hell is that? One who protest peace? Then you ask to violate our laws in regards to political assassinations: remember, Saddam wasn't a legit target UNTIL we entered into war with Iraq. Then you argue that the miltary was too optimistic, then jump to why we are using depleted uranium shells! Don't stop there! Complain that we are poluting their air with our deisel tanks! We used Dolphins to find mines at the ports, AND we use birds as early warning on chemical attacks! You kill me! ;D Slammy 8) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 31st, 2003, 9:06pm Quote:
It is a term used to describe people who attend the protests over US policy in Iraq. There is no single 'party line' for people at these gatherings, other than the viewpoint that it's questionable for the USA to attack first, with apparently flimsy justification in a war in which many qualified intelligence analysts have warned could cause more terrorism than it prevents. Some are liberal, some are conservative some are religious, esp. catholic (now that the Pope has come out against the war) Quote:
It's against Policy because assassination of a leader is an act of War, but if we are the aggresors and Starting this War, then Really now .... what's the difference? except thousands more caualties? It's still against International Law but we violate that regularly, see post on depleted uranium. Quote:
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by thsa/simon on Mar 31st, 2003, 9:22pm According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission... Is this the same UN that tried to talk Saddam into playing nicely? :P Anyway.... Most of what I read about DU is from the same people that are convinced that the world is ending from global warming that we are causing....HELLO...kyoto treaty. I can dispell the theory in one simple statement: THE WORLD HAD TO WARM UP TO END THE ICE AGES IDIOTS!! Glad to get that off my chest. And oh...we weren't around back them. So screw the UN and most of their damn committees and findings. Most of those idiots failed science anyway. simon PS that first line was supposed to be a quote.....how do you all do that????? |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 31st, 2003, 9:47pm HELLOOOO? dude, did you happen to notice those statements came from the US Colonel in charge of cleaning that crap up? Not the UN? yeah, OK .... science is for eggeheads? Radioactive Uranium dust is just a UN myth right? then why not breathe some if it's so harmless? Science is the reason we have a military advantage over Saddam. It's what we use to make our bombs fly further and hit harder, and also to purify water, to increase crop yeilds and even maybe cure CH's. And while you're at it why not change the subject to something totally unrelated like "global Warming" theories -- whoops, that's exactly what you did. btw, the "quote button" is on the bottom row of square buttons, 2nd from right, above the row of smileys. Click it and insert the text between the html commands. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Mar 31st, 2003, 10:05pm Slammy, Wow! It's good to see a thought out post and one avoiding calling people names because they're not fanaticaly "patriotic," as FUBAR and jonny do. I can see you're one who actually thinks this through and doesn't just send out empty slogans. Actually, to the point of protesting the war but supporting our troops? That's why I've been pretty silent on this issue since the war started, although I may have one or two posts in there after reading a slew of naziesque propoganda from morons who want the heads of anyone against the war on a stick. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2003, 10:33pm [snip] |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Mar 31st, 2003, 10:34pm Ted, we may net even be close to agreeing, but thanks for being an adult about things and not resorting to personal insults, chiding and ridiculous guilt-by-association smears that are completely out of line. I think I have been very tolerant of the insults flying on this thread ... and tried to stick to facts and justify my opinions with information. peace, micahel c |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Apr 1st, 2003, 7:59am Fubar, don't you think that was kind of a windbaggy way to say nothing at all? ::) Also, I didn't mention you in the part of the naziesque posts. Sometimes self-realization makes people associate with descriptions mentioned even when that person isn't mentioned in a description. Sorry to hear you're cracking up, but glad I can be a part of it. ;) |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Apr 1st, 2003, 11:42am [snip] |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by SusanM on Apr 1st, 2003, 1:59pm As I read these posts.....there is one fact that stands out above all.... We live in a country where we CAN protest...whether for or against...as this is our right! Don't others deserve this right as well? |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Apr 1st, 2003, 2:28pm One more quick observation. MichaelC has his email hidden. Typical. Big mouth. No spine. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by CJohnson on Apr 1st, 2003, 3:24pm I think that I finally understand. This thread was a clever scheme to effect a rapid blood pressure change in the members of this community. A bold and unorthodox assault on the obscure machinations of our collective CH! Good form. -Curtis |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Apr 1st, 2003, 3:49pm ROFLMAO Curtis!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone loves an optimist! You are a great one! Thanks for the perspective :) Cat |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by brain_cramps on Apr 1st, 2003, 3:54pm I'm glad I saved this thread until 4AM when I couldn't sleep. No more Nitol for me. ;D grant |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by thsa/simon on Apr 1st, 2003, 6:32pm MichaelC Sorry, for being subtle..I really didnt change the subject. It was a shot at the UN inspector Hans Blix who said that Global Warming was more of a threat than Saddam Hussein. I just think the UN has a slightly different view on science than others. I, for one, started my adult life in geophysics before I got in medicine. You should read the 1999 Rand report on DU. It really is a little bit more levelheaded than the some of the other material out there about DU. Furthermore, I am a Gulf war vet. I have treated HUNDREDS of Gulf war vets. Of all those I know and have treated, NONE have had children with missing eye or fused fingers, and depending on the definition of severe illnesses and respiratory problems (these are rather vague), I am SURE that nowhere near 67% have problems. I would LOVE to read that study. Do some kids have asthma? (a respiratory problem). Sure, but so does the same percentage of children in the general population. Correlation is not causation. Anyway, I off to do things I must. Thanks to all for the support and comfort. Thanks to all for the stimulating debate. See you all when I get back online. simon |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Apr 1st, 2003, 10:09pm Sorry if anyone feels i was trying to piss anoyone off with my views of a protersor post. I have strong feelings about this just like you do and I have not deliberately attacked, insulted or flamed anyone on this board, look back at my replies. some of you have viewed my words as some kind of attack on their viewpoints, but that's not the case. Also my posts are wordy because these are complex issues and as I already have been lumped in with rioters and people that dont like soldiers - so I felt the need to over-explain myself. My apologies to sufferers, supporters and veterans. awesome post thsa/simon: I will check the RAND report, I know science is not always cut-&-dry. I'm open to new information so this is a refreshing post, I like facts. My opinons on this stuff are not final by any means - perhaps DU is not as bad as projected. RAND is a defense think-tank with close ties to armaments manufacturers so their report will *possibly* be a bit skewed as well. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Ted on Apr 1st, 2003, 11:21pm MichaelC, I can only offer you this. From what I read Den was one of the people who used to get his ass kicked for protesting against Nam. Me? I was a liberal in the good ol' Reagan days and sometimes got my ass kicked by the sons of the parents who worked at GE building the nukes I was protesting against and one time I got my jaw dislocated for protesting against nuclear power. Just for holding a sign. Not for being as assholish as I can be here. So, what I offer to you is if you believe in something, don't let a few flames on a friggin message board soften your view and make you apologetic. Stand for what you believe in. On the other hand, don't be stubborn. Don't fail to accept you're wrong because it would be a defeat. We fight for many things. Sometimes we're wrong and have to be open to that. Sometimes we're right and have to withstand the hatred of others while we try and convince them so. So, all in all, stick by your beliefs. Just allow them to be changed if logic dictates. But never from intimidation! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Apr 1st, 2003, 11:35pm Quote:
Could not agree more. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Charlie on Apr 2nd, 2003, 12:22am Just catching up here. I didn't make myself clear on the security post. When I said that those who are in security never divulge what they know and I said it was "weird," I did not mean that it was weird that they didn't tell us about things, but that anyone here would say they knew something. That's what I meant.....not that they never spill the beans but that they would. If you know something like that, you're supposed to shut up. So called "patriots" don‘t do conservatives a favor. John McCain is a patriot, and a he’s my idea of a conservative. These people have a long proud history. Unfortunately, nuts have taken over the right wing and populated the GOP with politicians who are good at pushing populist buttons, including labeling protestors traitors or America haters. They are also very good at avoiding anything serious.....It's why I crossed the aisle. It's not paradise either though. Democrats need to act like Democrats for a change. No need to apologize Michael. We need someone like you on this side of the trench. Ted and I bore the others with our pinko posts. Keep it up Michael. You’re doing fine. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Apr 2nd, 2003, 1:52am Thanks guys! Im not going to change my views .... I try my darndest to have my brain set to where they change regularly as new info comes in. But in my everyday life i'm the one people call in to diffuse tense situations, lol. So it was a bummer to see the more angry reactions to my posts and see this flame-a-thon happen. Perhaps I should have clarified that the protests I attended were all PRE-war. I have not been to any since the fighting started. Also I have never heard about or seen ANYONE disrespecting Troops at the protests I attended. I live in Tennessee ... maybe it's different here, but there were no riots, no huge police force(about 5 total), no pro-sadam hussein signs, or other idiocy. I know the ones in NY were out of hand and in a city that size you get all types. (I have to mention the pro-war counter-protestor who had a sign made from a Domino's Pizza(tm) box that said simply: "KILL IRAQ" So clearly both sides get infiltrated by idiots with nothing better to do than make dumb signs.) I honestly did not post this thread to piss anyone off or cause any form of psychological distress. It was a searing acidic response from "Don" (who wants my email addy for some odd reason) that made me say, Whoa - that's enough. THAT is why I am APOLOGIZING. I'm a peaceful person and a proud citizen of this country. |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by tommyD on Apr 2nd, 2003, 7:07am A few replies to comments on environmental topics: Global warming is real. And Blix is right: it is more of a threat to the planet than Saddam -- or George Bush, for that matter. Natural climate cycles may well play a part, but it is very likely that human activities contribute significantly; the big question is how much. By the way, the last ice age ended about 10,000-12,000 years ago. And there is also a hypothesis among geologists and climatologists that an inital warming period may serve as a trigger for a long-term cooling period: it could set the glaciers to growing and moving. Depleted uranium is nasty stuff. It is 60% as radioactive as fuel grade uranium...and that's damn radioactive. It is also a heavy metal and chemcially toxic. The Pentagon says it poses no health threat, but we'd have to suspend the laws of physics for that to be so. It is very effective as an armor-piercing shell and as armor, because of its density, and becuase when a DU projectile hits something, about a quarter to a third of it burns very intensly, resulting in uranium oxide dust. It is this dust, and particles of unburned DU from the shattered shell, that poisons the immediate area for millions, even billions of years. And the dust blows around. Children are most susceptible to both ionizing radiation and heavy metal poisoning. Gulf war syndrome is mysterious for two reasons: it is not one disease stemming from one cause. DU is thought by many scientists to play a part in Gulf War syndrome. There are other causes as well: smoke from oil fires, chemical weapons that were distributed into the air when Saddm's weapons magazines were bombed, perhaps even (tho I'm skeptical about this one) vaccinations or preventative drugs given our soldiers before they were deployed. (mercury used as a preservative in some vaccines is a possible culprit, but from what little I know the concentrations are too low). And it is mysterious because the government would rather it did not exist, and because conspiracy theorist and crack pots imagine things that are not true, thereby confusing the issue. enough rant, gotta go to work -tommyD |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by fubar on Apr 2nd, 2003, 10:59am Well, enough bashing my own head on the wall on this topic... I've removed any and all inflammatory remarks (mostly directed at one person) in order to clean up this board a little bit (in more threads than this one, btw). To my surprise, all that elicited from Ted was an accusation that I was trying to make him look bad, since his posts are all still there seemingly for no reason now. No Ted, this was an honest attempt to clean up this board. I'm not interested in public displays like that, even if I get drawn into them. And with that, I have written (I hope) the very last post of mine on the matter. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by jonny on Apr 3rd, 2003, 7:25pm STFU All of yous!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by Jade0395 on Apr 4th, 2003, 9:32am :-X You know, I've often wondered ..how come PEACE protests always end up in some sort of violence, kind of defeats the purpose if you ask me. Take your anti-war signs X them out and be true Americans and SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!! Another thing after 9/11 .. I've heard so many times a saying that I agree with .." The terrorist woke the sleeping Giant "(USA). Now this comes out of even mouths of people I know that do not support this war. Let me ask one question ...since agreement is made on that statement ...should the sleeping giant have just gone back to sleep? I THINK NOT Nobody likes war, but there comes a time to quit trying to stop it and to start SUPPORTING our men and women over there risking their lives every single second for you ..and support doesn't come from an unpeaceful "peace rally"! |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by michaelc on Apr 5th, 2003, 4:54am I have seen some of the violent events at rallies on TV, I don't know of any instances where there was widescale violence. Generally it happens in the much larger cities where you get all types of people protesting and are more likely to have some drunk idiots show up. All of the ones i have seen in person were entirely peaceful and well organized in terms of not casuing any disruption or traffic jams, etc. it's not fair to equate the average Peace activist with the 5% violent and misguided contingent that starts the bullshit "Dissension is nothing we shy away from--it should just be reported about more accurately" "Ed's talk from the stage centered on the importance of freedom of speech and the importance of supporting our soldiers as well as an expression of sadness over the public being made to feel as though the two sentiments can't occur simultaneously." "To the families [of soldiers] and those people who know those folks and are related to those folks and are married to those folks, we send our support. We're just confused on how wanting to bring them back safely all of a sudden becomes nonsupport. We love them, we support them. They're not the ones who make the foreign policy...let's hope for the best and speak our opinions." From Pearl Jam on the current contraversey |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by catlind on Apr 5th, 2003, 8:47am on 04/05/03 at 04:54:46, michaelc wrote:
BULLSHIT! It's not fair that I can't go to a town or city that has a peace rally because there's a DoD sticker on my Car!!!!! Don't spout about what is and isn't fair. Do you think the woman who's car was surrounded was treated fairly? Do you think Tim's 6 year old daughter was treated fairly? Do you think my best friends mother was treated fairly when she was psuedo shot at by an 8 year old protesting with his daddy outside the gate of a military installation? Define fair. These are just 3 examples that I personally know about and have been warned against. In fact, even talking to you is fully against what we have been instructed by the squadron commander. I quote: Quote:
Holy fuck, why am I even bothering. ::) I'm wasting my breath and good brain power on this. Cat |
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Title: Re: Views from a Protestor Post by don on Apr 5th, 2003, 10:29am Quote:
Quote:
2 quotes from same guy. |
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