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Title: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jmorgan52 on Mar 11th, 2003, 1:15am 10 Ways to Avoid War by Deepak Chopra Avoiding war can be at once the simplest and most difficult thing to do. It is simple to see that war is always a failure, a perilous risk that leads to immense misery. But it is difficult to get out of the war mentality once the mind is infected by it. Even anti-war protests can inflame the war mentality by inciting more stubbornness and resolve on the other side. To be belligerent in the name of peace is a form of war. Therefore the dilemma about over Iraq must be resolved in a way that is neither pro-war nor anti-war. Is this viable? Recently I was caught by surprise when a newspaper reporter in Memphis said to me," You have stated that there is a creative solution to every problem. What's the creative solution to prevent the bombing of Iraq?" My answer caused a minor stir-both of outrage and support-because I suggested that if Pope John Paul, Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama, Nobel Peace Laureates, and other luminaries went to Baghdad, bombing would be impossible. My hope was that symbols of peace might be a startling reminder, if they physically traveled to Iraq, that human beings exist for a spiritual purpose higher than war, however justified that war seems. I'd like to expand on that argument. The war mentality is blinded by fear, which fuels aggression and violence to make the fear go away. That is war in a nutshell. The other rationales are pointless, and when we obsess over them, arguing whether the U.S. is acting as savior, aggressor, imperialist, peacekeeper, world policeman, or cynical oil power, the net effect is to forget that war is about fear and using violence to "solve" it. If you step out of the war mentality, there are not just a few creative ways to avoid an invasion of Iraq. There are dozens. If every person who doesn't want war sent in his or her suggestion about a better answer, tens of thousands of replies would flood in. Of these I 'm sure that five or six would be completely workable. Let me mention ten to begin with: 1. Congratulate President Bush on already succeeding. The presence of U.S. troops around Iraq has called Saddam's bluff. Disarmament has begun. If pressure is kept on with U.S. military presence, in the region, without dropping bombs, further progress will inevitably occur. 2. Assign prominent figures of peace to be present in Iraq constantly, along with the U.N. inspectors. Have these revered figures address the Iraqi people and the world every day on the value of peace. 3. Ask 100,000 well-wishers from around the globe to bring food and aid to Iraq's children. These people would carry humane relief in person to Baghdad. 4. Start a global Peace Corps of volunteers who will go to Iraq with the express purpose of fulfilling any humanitarian need asked for by that country. 5. Offer MTV, CNN, and Nickelodeon free to any Iraq household with a TV. Exposure to the world will make them feel like part of the world. 6. Sponsor 25,000 student exchanges for Iraqi high schoolers so that they can live for a year in Europe or the U.S. 7. Keep a tenfold number of U.N. weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq and have them report every two weeks. 8. Teach courses in all American schools on the pros and cons of globalization and multiculturalism, as opposed to instilling the false belief that nationalism is going to continue to work (war being a logical and horrendous extension of nationalism). 9. Withdraw the resented presence of U.S. troops from those regions where seeing an American army uniform inflames simmering hatred. 10. Open Disney World somewhere in the Middle East., a region where up to half the population is under the age of 15. These children are in enormous peril, not just from bombs but from cultural isolation. Let children breathe free air at a place where fun and joy abide. What better way to reduce fear and anger? At the same time, find a way to expose American children to the children of the world. Whatever you think of these particular suggestions, the most obvious thing is how easily they arise once you stop being infected by the war mentality. Weapons of mass destruction are disposed of when they are seen as irrelevant. That is what happened with the former Soviet Union. The same can happen in the Middle East once we put our hearts into it. The choice to change history or become its next victim faces us right here, right now. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by TomM on Mar 11th, 2003, 8:18am While we are on the subject... 1) I support the decision made by OUR commander in chief to place our service men/women in harm's way. 2) I support our troops. I realize I just stated that but it should be stated again. 3) I am a vet but have never been in combat. A few quotes form Flags of Our Fathers: "He talked about all the bodies laid out on the beach and how the Polish kid from Milwaukee was tortured. How they hammered his teeth, cut out his tongue, poked his eyes out, cut off his ears, almost dismembered him". "He had be bayoneted repeatedly. The back of his head had been smached in". And fianally..."They tortured my buddy. The Japanese stuffed his penis in his mouth". --Nice-- The quotes are from the forementioned book about the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima, most peticular Mount Suribachi, during WWII written by the son of one flag raiser. The only non-Marine; a Navy Corpsman and last "flag raiser/hero" of that battle to leave this world to hopefully a better, peaceful one. So, you ask, how can I support war if I think it's so tragic? I support the troops, thier families and the command. Sometimes we must do somethings we just do not want to do. This I learned the hard way on a few patrols in the Bering Sea and a few trips 200 miles off Cape Hatteras in a 44' small boat in raging seas just to save a few pleasure boaters lives. Sometimes you just gotta STFU and follow. Even Admirals and Gernerals take orders and MacArthur learned that the hard way. Is Dubya right in being such a war monger? I don't think so but obviously Sadam is liar that can be trusted about as much as a $5.00 crack sleeper. Does that mean the U.S. should march over there and show him what it means to be considered an upstanding member of the U.N.? Don't know. What do you think? I do not have the answers and am teetering on the fence. Here is my bottom line: I love this country with all my heart and soul. I love my brethren and thier families. Sept. 11, 2001 changed everything around the world. Thank you, religious zealots! I fear most for the families who must endure the pain of knowing thier loved one is gone. The loved one is peaceful; we will cry for them but it's the faimlies we cry for the most. And sometimes I take orders from my boss that I do not like. Just my humble opinon. TomM :) |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 11th, 2003, 10:42am We just need to relax on this Iraq issue. Trust me, there is MUCH insanity within it.... |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Woobie on Mar 11th, 2003, 11:53am Anybody read the book "Bush At War"? Just wondering. Gives his PERSONAL thoughts, and reasons ... i dont know if I agree or disagree.. but it was an interesting read. Tina |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 11th, 2003, 1:03pm I've not, Tina. But ya'll need to hear me out on this. There is NO way, not no how I do not support troops adnd veterans and folks who gave their lives for this country because I love this place. But I'll tell you this and I have just come to realize this: There is MUCH insanity in this Iraq thing. I am, quite frankly, frightened. We shall see, but you mark my words.... Maybe I'm feeling "weak" cuz my wife has exited teh picture, but as I said, we shall see.... I hope all of you are well.... |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Svenn on Mar 11th, 2003, 1:29pm just 1 ONE way needed remove both Saddam&Bush JR from the seat, Svenn |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Svenn on Mar 11th, 2003, 1:31pm Saddam is a mad despot and G,B is just a simple triggerhappy cowboy who want to end what he`s father was not able to do 12 years ago |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 11th, 2003, 3:21pm You all just sit back and watch America and friends take out a mad man that should have been dead twelve years ago, Then you will see why France is dragging and bribing certain countries to vote aginst this. You will see how much French writing is on aircraft part crates in Iraq and alot more. French economy?....Can you say "Toilet" LMMFAO ..........................jonny (JMHO:) |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 11th, 2003, 4:00pm 4th largest economy in the world. The world. Their opinion means something.... |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 11th, 2003, 4:07pm And growing at ONLY 1% a year, America boycotts means....Toilet!!! .............................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by RevDeFord on Mar 11th, 2003, 5:05pm There is not a single Iraqi who has faced the torture and oppression of Sadam's regime that will not welcome the liberation that will come from our forces. Ask the Pols, the Czecks, and any other country but France that we have liberated. Iraq is a repressive regime that would not allow the infiltration of Western Culture to be on the TV screens. We can not stick our head in the sand and do nothing. This is what happened before September 11 and is the reason why Iran and North Korea have developed nuclear weapons programs. And yes Jonny, as a French American, I say damn the french. Change the name of french fries to freedom fries, change french toast to freedom toast. Kick the UN out of Iraq, and quit giving 50% of the UN's operating budget. And, quit teaching french in school. It encourages tourism to that God forsaken place. W. has far more knowlege from intelligence sources than we will ever know. I bet they only share 10%of what they actually know so that they don't blow their sources. If you are terrified about what you have seen thus far, you will hear of far worse once that country is liberated. Many of those against this war are genuine. Others were totally for the war when Clinton was in office. Funny how they have changed now that W. is in. It is also funny that these same peaceniks would be shouting against any action against Afghanistan had we had the information put together before the September 11 attacks. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 11th, 2003, 6:27pm Rev, You win the prize: Quote:
Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Ueli on Mar 11th, 2003, 6:55pm Does anyone else see racism raise its ugly head in this thread ??? Why the fuck should the French, or anybody else for that matter, help to usurp the Iraqi oil wells for the GWB clan ??? I don't know what Toni Blair hopes to gain, but one thing is sure: He will lose his job if more than a few British soldiers come to death. After all the British, as a people, are opposed to this war like the rest of Europe, including the Italians and Spaniards who have chiefs too that govern against the majority of their people (I'm talking here of 70-80% against versus <10% for this war). Rev, are you sure to be still a proud Republican in half a years time? A final note: This message board is about cluster headaches, not to libel those who don't share your skewed political opinion. Peace, Ueli |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 11th, 2003, 7:15pm The Fench dont want to help cause they have billion dollars contracts for oil with Iraq, plus they dont want us to find all that they have given Iraq in parts to airplanes.....the same with Germany. Looks to me that Italy is sending troops in to help us....Am I wrong? Cant see Tony Blaier loosing his job when there is no one with credibility to run against him. Spain is with the US. The Pope is trying to cut a deal with Sadam, is that not enough for you to realize that this needs to be done? Stay the fuck out of the the way, America will wipe your ass for you if you cant do it yourself!!! ....................................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by M.R. on Mar 11th, 2003, 8:13pm My thought is some of those peace loving folks want to hang out in Iraq, move in where he posioned gassed his own people. I'm sure they would like the help. Bring your "Peace-no war" signs. I don't think they will really beat you with them. P.S. I will be a republican longer than a half a year from now. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 11th, 2003, 9:06pm Quote:
Great, but you evidently think that being a Republican is the way to go if you aren't peace-loving. This is a shame as Republicans are a pretty good bunch and just as peace-loving as the rest us. It’s the neo-conservatives that occupy the White House that are an embarrassment. It's a shame too, that so many of this bunch call themselves GOP. It's destroyed a great party and sent me across the aisle. Again, the almost giddy anticipation for the coming bloodbath, and the juvenile bashing of those who question this undertaking, and call for some restraint, is mind-boggling. I’ve never seen anything like it. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Jarvis on Mar 12th, 2003, 12:58am I am with Brian on this and an american. Who the fuck are we to tell someone else how to keep there house... .If the Iraqi people dont want sadaam then where in the hell are they in all this. Lets give them the tools if they want them. . I agree somethings fishy and very frightening here. There may be WMD over there in Iraq. BUT . It is up to the world body (UN) that we were instrumental in setting up to be sure people like bush and sadaam dont get there hands on the weapons and threaten others. . We are becoming very ugly americans indeed. . It is democracy we supposedly pride ourselves on and thats obviously failed with bush and co. Yet we spit on those countries that still believe. . China, France, Germany, Russia, all have intelligence agencies to rival our own. Do you think they would really just stand by and let a madman run amuck with the power to wipe them out. They are a lot closer than us to Iraqs borders. Our economy sucks worse than france. .... I have lost thousands in recent days because of this bullshit. The sad thing is that as americans we are just standing on the sidelines, waiting and wondering just as all the world is. And doing nothing to stop these two crazed Idiots that are holdin the finger over us all. ............"The choice to change history or become its next victim faces us all right here right now." |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by cerebus on Mar 12th, 2003, 1:35am In keeping with the original thought in this post about ten ways to avoid war, I have to say that almost all of those solutions are invalid, only because they are impossible to carry out. I hate the idea of war as much as the next fellow, but I support American service men and women in whatever capacity they participate. Here is another interesting thought......chew on THIS for a while, all you conspiracy theorists out there. In the 80's the "world threat" and all around "bad guy" was Moamar Kahdahfi. he was everything hussein is today. Reagan left office and we don't hear from "Lybia" again till recently. Bush Sr. becomes Pres. and Saddam is now the new threat. We wage a "war" and everything is fine and dandy for twelve years, minus a few attitude checks. Now George Jr. take office and suddenly daddies old nemesis is a problem again. So using a syllogistic method of reasoning, If GWB goes so does Hussein. And the world moves on. next.... Ramon |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jmorgan52 on Mar 12th, 2003, 2:26am This war is going to cost the American taxpayer anything upwards of 50-100 BILLION US$ Thats a shit load of money in anyones terms. War is not about winners and losers, it is about who can kill the most people on either side. It is the death of the civilised human spirit. I say take all that money and much, much, more and invest it in the right way to fix the situation using the so called genius strategists you have. Focu the enegry on peace instead of war. The problem is your boss (and my boss) does not want to spend all that money on something that does not satisfy his need to revenge Sept 11, which I doubt Saddam had anything to do with anyway. Rather get Bush nominated for the Nobel Peace prize for fucks sake! |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Ted on Mar 12th, 2003, 4:35am on 03/11/03 at 21:06:16, Charlie wrote:
Charlie. It is pretty scary. The bloodbath is coming. And the giddiness is repulsive. People talk like they don't realize others have been forced into sevice by the threat that their children will be raped if they don't sign up. Now, that's pretty much a good reason to fight this regime. It's absurd over there. But I don't see these people telling us to slaughter Iraqis because of some obscure threat and this disgusting regime telling us to to fight N Korea, who has nukes and is raping the daughters of any non-conscripts. Yes, we are going giddily into a bloodbath. Because we can do it in some abstract thought. And that's how we do it. By forgetting what and who is out there getting slaughtered. That Giddiness to the bloodbath. That's what I can't get over. Ueli, I once told you I was getting tired of you "Ugly American" And anti-American attitude. Watching the joy we are taking on the upcoming slaughter... not one side saying it has to be done, but the joy we are taking in it, makes me retract what I said. We're a nation gone mad and we're the most powerful nation out there. Please, as an American, accept my apologies for what we've become. We really were once a peace loving nation. But we've literally gone mad. There you have it. Two sides of the war spoken with me and Crash. And we both know that that top 10 list would be the worst thing to do. Unless you like people being tortured. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by TomM on Mar 12th, 2003, 9:11am Quote:
The war is inevitable; I don't like it but think it is a necessary action to counteract the evil one in Iraq. Quote:
Everyone says they know someone so here it goes. I work in Washington, DC and live in a MD suburb. I have freinds and family at the State Department , Pentagon, and CIA (when you live in this in this area everyone knows someone). Quote:
I don't write like this on this board very often but Fuck the French! Actually, this summs it up: Quote:
TomM |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by tommyD on Mar 12th, 2003, 6:22pm I support our troops! Indeed I do! And the best way to support them is to not send them into a foolish and counterproductive war. Here's one more reason to support the troops by opposing Bush's war: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,57959,00.html A few excrepts for the impatient: U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf may be armed with radioactive bombs and missiles hundreds of times more potent than similar weapons used during the Gulf War and the U.N. military campaign in Bosnia. As evidence that the United States is expanding its use of depleted uranium weapons beyond the relatively small 30-millimeter to 120-millimeter armor-piercing bullets and shells used by tanks and tank-killer aircraft in the Gulf and Balkans, weapons watchdogs cite the so-called "bunker-buster" bombs and missiles unleashed on Afghanistan. ...... Depleted uranium has a few drawbacks. It is 40 percent as radioactive as pure uranium and has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. In addition, the very volatility that makes it blaze like an atomic furnace upon impact converts a large percentage of the spent projectile into microscopic radioactive oxides that, when borne by the wind, may be inhaled by civilians miles from the battlefield. Despite this, Pentagon and Veterans Administration brass are adamant in insisting that depleted uranium is absolutely harmless to both combatants and non-combatants, and is in no way responsible for any of the symptoms associated with so-called "Gulf War syndrome." .......(end excrepts) The depleted uranium shells used in the Gulf war affected Iraqis, of course, but American soldiers taking over enemy positions, or checked destroyed Iraqi tanks, were also exposed. And if Bush intends to occupy Iraq, the contamination will be unavoidable. By spreading radiation, these are indiscriminate weapons, they kill soldiers on both sides, civilians, childen, even people who haven't been born yet. Such indiscriminate weapons are sometimes referred to as "weapons of mass destruction." The bunker buster bombs, where they made by or in the possession of anyone else, would be called "dirty bombs," conventional explosives designed to sprerad radiation or other types of toxic contamination. There is a conference in Vienna, as we speak, about how to keep rogue states from obtaining the radioactive material for dirty bombs. None of the news reports mentioned concerns at the conference that the US might already have dirty bombs. Sorry for the rant, but this has been buggin' me all day. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 12th, 2003, 6:34pm So what you are saying Tommy is we sit here like ducks doing nothing? Get real dude!!!! Kill or be killed no matter what it takes thats why its called "WAR" ......................................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by 2late on Mar 12th, 2003, 6:36pm this piece of shit needs taken out now, i hope all you anti-bush folk don't think the democrats would handle this any better, they had their chance & didn't do a fucking thing. i guess in your eye's they would do better, we wouldn't be going to war, clinton would be gettin' some head (the only thing i liked about clinton) & it wouldn't be long before a nuke comes knockin' on our door. .............Jack |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 12th, 2003, 6:39pm TOUCHE"......Jack!!!! ........................................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by tommyD on Mar 12th, 2003, 10:53pm Saddam has no capability of attacking the US. He's never been tight with Osama, has no terrorist infrastructure to pull of an over seas attack, and is vastly inferior in conventional military capabilities. Left alone, he would eventually have gone to war with Osama and the other Islamic militants, who hate his guts, and we could have been rid of two pains in the ass without throwing a stone at all. Yes, Jonny, sometimes it's much better to do nothing. And I was talking about the use of indiscriminate weapons. Depleted uranium is one such weapon (Others are chemical, biological, EMP, landmines, etc). Whatever the justification for war, it's usually not a good idea to use them. If you want a war, you must win it well. We're not talking the armor-piercing shells used in the Gulf War (bad enough - a cause of some of the Gulf War Syndrome). These are big explosive bombs that basically use DU as shrapnel. DU would harm our own troops as well as the enemy, non-combatants, even the damn wildlife. And the areas where DU weapons are used will be poisoned permanently. Not a good start for our supposed goal of building a democracy in Iraq. And Jack - what ever else you think about Clinton, he kept Saddam in check with a little cat and mouse deal (Saddam would turn on a radar set, and we'd promptly blow it up). And Clinton managed not to get the whole fucking world mad at us. Your boy Bush has used up a lot of valuable diplomatic capital already with his little crusade. If he goes it alone, he'll lose it all, and we'll be more of a target than ever. The most likely source of a nuke attack would be from Pakistan, by the way, which actually has nukes and is vulnerable to takeover by religious whackos who hate us. And Clinton getting some head doesn't bother me a bit. I like some head myself, and since I do get some, it doesn't bother me if Bill gets some, too. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by TomM on Mar 13th, 2003, 9:19am If your offering head, I'll take sum! ;D TomM |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 13th, 2003, 3:24pm It's so easy to sit here and look at this from some historical perspective and say "like Hitler, blah blah blah". That's poor scholarship. The point is that if you ARE going to learn from history, then understanding the balances you place on things in the here and now will allow for people to really have LEARNED from what happens in the past. Do you think the Arabs in the Middle East who clearly supported Hitler (as did we due to the possibility of a Jewish State...And look what came out of that...Germany's reparation was Israel had to exist.) would have continued to suport him if they KNEW that Israel would have become a state because of Hitler's crimes against Jews? I'll tell you this: They'd been anti-fascist faster than you can say "Kristal-Nachten". I do not think Washington is considering the implications of what they are intending to do (with the type of cavalier attitude they have) will destabilize the region and shift what happens WAY outside of Iraq's borders. And with that, comes their madness. Going in and "kicking ass" in America's name is pedestrian nonsense. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 13th, 2003, 3:33pm http://tinyurl.com/7fag |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 13th, 2003, 3:57pm Jonny, Touche!!!!. I like this one too. http://216.136.200.194/auction/Mar/20033131511752602826933.jpg |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 13th, 2003, 4:05pm Hmmmmm!!! So you think these two men are equal, Brian? ...............................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Brian_Y on Mar 13th, 2003, 4:19pm I do not. Never have said it nor would I have implied it. I think Hussein is a horrible despot, a violator of human rights, etc. And we need to work on his departure and/or containment, but softly, softly. But so is the royal family in Saudi Arabia. And the new guy in charge in Belarus (cannot remember his name), and so is Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe, and the Chinese, and the North Koreans, ad infinitum. I do not see us hammering their doors down. I think Washington is not considerig the broader implications. If they did (and this is not limited to Dubya--past Prez's too) then they would brokered a deal which would have made other Arab states topple Saddam themselves. Why do you think states like goddam Jordan and Syria and Egypt have clammed up on this issue? Cuz they are not taking the easy path of being "anti-american". They are counting their blessings. That's leadership we've shown in the past and resounds with their knwoing where their bread is buttered. It's shitty politics and as a result, I think Dubya is stupid and not toilet trained. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by TomM on Mar 13th, 2003, 4:31pm Quote:
Poor scholarship!!?? Are you kidiing me? ??? Have you read any newspapers from the era before WWII? I have. From circa 1934-1939 @ the Library of Congress. The U.S. not only stuck its head in the sand, they were dam close to the water table! Yes, learn from history and take out the wolrd's biggest threat before he invades other countries. Oh, I'm sorry. He did invade Kuwait so let's not worry until he gasses his own people...shit...he did that too...so let's wait until he demonstrates he has nukes...crap...so let's wait until he invades our soil...his operative did that. Yup. Let's just wait some more. Quote:
Quote:
Tom |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 13th, 2003, 5:25pm M. O. A. B. http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/9999/99993495F1.JPG Mother Of All Bombs!!! The USA may suck in some peoples eyes but Iraq will swallow MOAB......................LMMFAO!!!!! ................................jonny We even painted it cool ;D |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 13th, 2003, 5:45pm Saddam is shaking in his pointed sandals. He ain’t doin’ nothin’ as long as he has us and others hanging around the Persian Gulf. I support that. Great idea. Containment is working just fine. A hell of a lot safer and cheaper too. Of course this guy is a monster but to compare him to Hitler is ridiculous. For one thing, a big chunk of the German populace loved him. Even elected him. Iraqis have no love for this bastard. Dubya, who is running most secretive administration in our history, will get my support and the UN’s as soon as he proves his case. The jokes are that we know he has WMD because we have the receipts. Fine, show ‘em around. So far, we can’t prove Saddam had anything to do with 9-11. By the way, kids, Saddam has George Bush The First’s picture on the floor of a hotel in Baghdad. I think it’s the one where the journalists were in 1991. It really has an impact on things......... Seriously, I can see getting rid of Saddam and even invading the place but let’s not pretend we are retaliating for something we cannot prove happened. Bombing the shit out of Iraq is like shooting your dry cleaner because your milk was spoiled. By the way, Condolezza Rice has an oil tanker named after her. I kid you not. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by tommyD on Mar 13th, 2003, 6:32pm Saddam is hardly the world's biggest threat. He's more like a two-bit banana republic dictator. Hitler and Saddam have similarities ....totalitarian, secret police, genocide... But Iraq is not Germany in the thirties. Like Charlie said, he had popular support, and also headed a leading industrial power, with cutting-edge science and technology. Iraq is a backwater with a lot of oil underground. At the moment, not even his backwater neighbors are particularly afraid of Saddam. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 13th, 2003, 6:40pm on 03/13/03 at 18:32:16, tommyD wrote:
Can you honestly say that about Kuwait? If the US didnt step in then who would have? You seem to have all the answers, tells us? ...............................jonny |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by 2late on Mar 13th, 2003, 6:44pm Tommy, clintons time in the whitehouse a disgrace, kept saddam in check? a joke, he's had 12 years to rebuild and from what we know, he's much more of a danger today than back then. he also kept the world from gettin' mad at us? another joke, he didn't have the balls to take care of business before it got out of hand, wanted to be everything to everybody & fuck what's in the best interest of our country, he could have had bin-laden in '98 but didn't wan't to piss anyone off. you said we'll be more of a target than ever if we go it alone, doing nothing makes us more of a target! all these radical ragheads understand is an in yer face offensive. your Pakistan nuke attack risk is way of to,we're working hand in hand with pakistan the're is no nuke risk now, the're was definatley a risk in the clinton day's he was chasing interns around the white house instead of doing his fuckin' job! personally,head is one of my favorite things, but keep it outta the oval office & be a fuckin' leader! clinton was all about clinton, we're paying for it now & for the foreseeable future. ...........Jack |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 14th, 2003, 2:23am Ah.....time to blame Clinton for everything. This idiocy is a hobby of right wing internet cranks. It's gotten pretty tiresome. Not long ago, Bill Maher said that in the event of an asteroid collision, Rush Limbaugh would probably survive long enough to blame it on Clinton. Clinton didn't have time to do much as the lunatic fringe, which has destroyed the GOP, spent more than 30 million dollars of our money dragging us through an impeachment which had no chance of resulting in a trial. Not very many people gave a shit about it anyway. What a waste of time..... No one ever needed head like George Bush. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Ted on Mar 14th, 2003, 7:43am "No one ever needed head like George Bush." Hey Charlie. Hope you don't mind. That line is a riot and I'm adding it to my sign-off line. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Hound_Dogg on Mar 14th, 2003, 8:50am "United we Stand...Divided we Fall." Well we are definitely divided on this issue. I am against a war at this moment. Saddam has to be taken out of power, eventually. But I don't understand the immediate rush. We should have more time to lobby support and also use the extra time wisely in order to obtain intelligence that could save a few of my Brothers & Sisters in arms. I just hope that everyone that is in love with sending our troops in asap to "Kick some arse" realize that this is not going to be as "easy", as Desert Storm (Desert Shield) was. This is going to be a blood-bath for everyone involved due to the objection of this strike. Desert Storm was initiated with the only purpose to push Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. Aerial Bombardment was used extensively, in the onset, since this was our only objective. When massive ground forces were deployed most of the Iraqi's had already pulled out or were ready to surrender for a decent meal. This impending war will have the objective of invading a country that is almost 25 times the land mass of Kuwait. Yes, we can use aerial bombardment much the same way...but once we do involve a large ground force the region will definitely not be secure. Ground forces will be forced into areas where firefights will be numerous. Also, they will have the added dificulty of not knowing who are the enemy and who are our allies. (Particularly in urban settings, where snipers and ambushes will be numerous). Eventually, I have no doubt that we will prevail and either kill, capture, or force Saddam to flee the country. But please remember...I believe that it will be at a very high cost in terms of Allied casualties. Being a Desert Storm/Shield Veteran, I have done some deep soul-searching on this issue...and I don't believe the ends (Tens of thousands of killed or maimed Allied Fighters), justify the means (Ridding Iraq of Saddam ASAP). I'm guessing on the amount of casualities, but I don't think it will be that far off. Saddam must eventually be removed. But we have time on our side. There is no reason to rush into this. Iraq does not have the capability of launching a serious offensive strike against us. Yes, terrorists may purchase weapons from Iraq...but can also purchase them from numerous other countries, as well. I am not ready to watch the bodies of 18 year olds come to Dover Air Force Base. Not for this reason, not when we have time to try other means. Jim |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by RevDeFord on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:38am The same people who are demanding more proof, that we cannot go to war without first allowing UN Inspectors to discover all this crap that we know he has, are same people who complained that the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, and the administration did not connect the dots before 9/11. They wanted to know, "How much did Bush know and when did he know it?" The problem is, what if the dots had been connected before 9/11. What if a week before Bush had come out and in a somber tone said "We have credible evidence that Osama Bin Laden's terror network, based in Afghanistan, under the protection of the Taliban regime, is plotting to destroy major symbols of our great country by hijacking planes and using them as missiles. As a result, we are launching a preemptive strike against this network." The liberal crowd would have been screaming against it, saying they needed proof. The fact is, even if they found a 30Ton Nuclear Warhead loaded and aimed at our troops in France, or Germany, or Israel, or Saudi Arabia, or our country here, it wouldn't be proof enough. Most of those who are decrying Bush had no problem supporting war when Clinton was in office. In fact, Puff Daschle and Little Dick Gephardt were die hard supporters of military action against Iraq. Our president has been in communication with hundreds of Iraqi civilians who defected. All of them are not only for action but they are demanding it. They know first hand the torture those people have experienced. And if he tortures his own people, he will have no problem attacking those whom he hates. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Hound_Dogg on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:57am To me ...this is not as simple as Democrat vs. Republican. It is a matter of strategy. I am a die-hearted Democrat...however, I completely stood behind George Bush the first when I fought in Desert Storm. Politicians will always use these issues for their own personal agenda. It disgusts me. Whether the politician is Democrat or Republican. Especially when it comes to war. Jim |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by TomM on Mar 14th, 2003, 10:37am A few things strike me: 1) Charlie--you have my utmost respect for keeping a cool head (look out for that word rises up again!) and keeping it real. 2) Hound_Dog--I have deep respect for your experiences, too. Both of you have some experience I do not have, most will never have, and hopefully will never see. Last: "No one ever needed head like George Bush." ;DThat, my freinds, it the quote of the month! Thank you, Charlie! 8) TomM |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Jarvis on Mar 14th, 2003, 10:57am Rev wrote "Our president has been in communication with hundreds of Iraqi civilians who defected. All of them are not only for action but they are demanding it." ............................................................ . This is like listening to only one side in a divorce. These people are "defectors". Of course they are demanding and full of spite. Where are the millions of good folks who still live in Iraq. I really dont have a problem with going into a war with Sadaam if thats what it takes to rid the world of a few weapons and lose a few of our own at the same time. I do have a problem with a war on the Iraqi people. My issues are what happens after a couple weeks. We become the dictators? . Do we move into our neighbors house because we dont like the way they raise there children? No. Five years from now when the oil is flowing free what then? Does the american military/industrial/ corporate complex maintain control? Is the military still battling in the streets? Russia has been the only one assured of there interests remaining there. Are we now going into war with the european countries because they have lost contracts and want some better prices? The problem is after. Maybe we can have a "democratic" islamic religous regime take over. Yeah right. Another Osama perhaps. The threat would remain. Wish I knew the answers. Or at the very least had some solid evidence as to why we should be there. Now the Korean deal thats another story. Drop the big bombs there and then just get the hell out of the way. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by RevDeFord on Mar 14th, 2003, 11:01am The answer to the Korean problem is simple. Give Nukes to South Korea and get our troops the heck out. By the time they get done with each other, we just post a sign saying "No Admittance for the next 50 Years". After 50 Years, move in a drill for oil. ;D |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by BobG on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:11pm I wish Clinton was still in the White House. She'd know what to do. ;) |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:32pm Can't say I see any "GLEE" on anyone's part. That is media spin and does not mirror any knowledeable voice (on either side).... :) I guess folks gotta do what folks gotta do - after all election day is another day ;) C'MON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who are you kidding? |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:33pm Can't say I see any "GLEE" on anyone's part. That is media spin and does not mirror any knowledeable voice (on either side).... :) I guess folks gotta do what folks gotta do - after all election day is another day ;) C'MON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who are you kidding? |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:40pm A couple things: Quote:
Osama with a bomb now, would be enough for me. Comparing things to pre 9-11 doesn’t work. This whole argument wouldn’t exist without it. You can do the same thing with Pre-Pearl Harbor. Homeland Security is more danger to us than terrorists. Never trust anyone on the Korean Peninsula. It’s not all their fault but I think that’s a good rule of thumb. It’s not stable. Giving nukes to the south? Why add to proliferation? Not clever. It’s not hard to consider that by threatening a veto, France may be encouraging us to attack sooner. Certainly Saddam thinks otherwise but maybe he doesn’t get it. I still think bashing the French, in the “let’s see how stupid we can be,” mode, is as asinine as it gets. They are not evil. Too, I think Europe misses the cold war. When the East-West conflict was in its heyday, they were part of almost everything and were needed. Today, it isn’t the same and some European powers, rightly or wrongly, think we no longer care what goes on on the Continent. This may be one explanation why the French and Germans, aren‘t rolling over for Dubya and Tony. Still, I think we should let up on them a bit. They’re not stupid and in fact have been playing this game for thousands of years. They’ve had to deal with a lot of nasty stuff in their long history. They were pretty successful. Loosen up a bit. After all, the American system is a creation of those terrible people. I still think we could have done things differently. Going to the UN while at the same time loading up the Persian Gulf with troops, to me, looks bad. (unless there is some reason for this timetable. No one has shown that so far) Sadly, I’m aware that too many of us have no respect for the UN and it’s too bad we have to aggravate our relationship. I do not think we are terrible. We may even be right. It’s just that the White House won’t tell us anything and isn’t listening. I can't say it surprises me. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 16th, 2003, 1:39pm The current situation is a GLOBAL situation. Why is it that the responsibility falls (in our eyes) ENTIRELY upon GW and the current administration? Laughable that AMERICANS can speak this way during a time that reaches FAR beyond our own backyard!!!! Those who criticize the current action being initialized to disarm (under a GLOBALLY recognized agreement!!!) our OWN government who, to date, has taken things upon OUR OWN shoulders in the name of WORLD PEACE -- PLEASE -- stop barking your brains out amongst yourselves. The burden MUST be on whose shoulders it belongs - and that is of Sadamm Hussein. Period. We are all behaving in a manner that I assure you he is laughing his ass of at. This is 12 years!!!! I am SICK and TIRED of the FAT MOUTH NO NOTS who have fed the disease that has insiduously wormed it's way through "diplomacy" to put us all at risk for Global catastrophe. I would like to see ONE post where Americans can stand up together and quit beating up their own government in the name of Liberal/conservative and see TOGETHER the tremendous effort that is being put forth!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jonny on Mar 16th, 2003, 2:24pm Hee Hee Hee !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 16th, 2003, 5:00pm How DEGRADING!!! A libelous LIAR has had the AUDACITY to insuate that an honest spoken opinion is to be held LIBEL...........FOR WHAT may I ask????? No one has made such a personal attack towards the protection every personal freedom you hold dear.....you would so wish that we were as vulgar as you "imagine"....a PITY!!! Every expression of art; every expression of pure brilliance (that we shall be PERMITTED to debate...), every exquisite piece of music that we may share together as a species.......... The United States is not your enemy and has no wish to ever ursurp that universal point of excellence within each of us. You are arrogant and insipiently WRONG TO ASSUME that we are your enemy.................we are "LIBEL"???????????You IDIOT!!! PS: Hi Ted :) Back to Rachmaninoff (such a beautiful pice of music that I am free to listen and comment on.).............Hey UELI< why don't you take a cat's piss in Iraq? We'll be sure to tune in to you Libelous poo poo upon return. I don't think you are as interesting as all get out. So shoot me, MEEEEEEEEEEEEEOW. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 16th, 2003, 7:39pm Quote:
I have to agree and it’s great that others, who have been traditional isolationists, are coming out of their shell and joining the east and west coast internationalists. Quote:
Not Saddam Hussein, he isn’t laughing. He’s scared to death. It’s others who are doing the laughing at our juvenile rhetoric and bashing of the French. They find it hard to believe that idiocy such as “freedom fries” can originate from adults. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by cerebus on Mar 16th, 2003, 7:48pm well, well.... seems the debate in here is quite heated. I've been reading some good arguments on both sides of the ball on this one. I must say though that there are a few oddities that I do not find so coincidental. Many say = we need more proof.....well how much proof is enough? Rev is right on this, it would take nothing short of Saddam himself on worldwide tv promising an attack of some sort ,to be enough. Many say = Saddam is not a legit threat......Neither was Bin Laden before Sept. 11th. Many say = Clinton this, Clinton that.........fact is that Clinton did bomb Iraq briefly, the difference is that CLinton DIDN'T ask for a full invasion and had the nuts to NOT ask the rest of the world for permission. Many say = Iraqis this, defectors that....... another brief fact fer ya.......if the situation wasn't bad in Iraq , no one would need to defect. Also, the median age of the working male in Iraq is 15, I'm not afraid of unarmed, starving, poor as dirt 15 yr olds either, why should Saddam be? What I get outta this?......... FUCK France, Fuck Germany, and FUCK The U.N. and the rest of Europe. We need to take care of #1 the fucking U.S. of A. and if the rest of the world wants to roll over so Saddam can scratch thier bellies ....so be it....but don't expect the U.S. to come running when you need help later. Plain and simple. Now ...do I expect the world to change their minds and suddenly agree with our policy on Iraq? NO! But I do expect ,at least, SOME considderation for what we have done FOR Europe and the rest of the world financially and militarily. Everyone keeps mentioning Hitler, well, the world would be Germany if we hadn't gotten involved, no matter how accidental it was at the time. The big problem with Europe is that every country wants to be the politically, ecologically, and financially correct one but NO ONE wants to assume the responsibility it brings. The U.S. has embraced that role for lack of anyone else stepping up and now we are becoming the L.A.P.D of the world? I think not! if you arent willing to get dirty in the name of the greater good then quit yer bitchin' and get the hell out of the way. How is it that we say...."hey you know that pesky Saddam Hussein thats been a thorn in your side for the last 20 years?" "how about we get rid of him for ya" all you have to do is help a little financially or let us use some of OUR abandonded military posts.......in reply we are hailed with shouts of "BULLIES" and "trigger happy Americans". You want an accurate picture of how Americans are percived abroad?......Ask a Canadian! And as far as world safety goes.......we were never "SAFE" before, whats going to change? Everyone is glad to have our money and our military when and how THEY want it. Sorry folks nothing is free, this time we have the trump card and we are going to use it whether you like it or not. Most of the equipment, arms and troops the U.N. employs are U.S. made anyway. so Fuck 'em. I'm sick and tired of everyone bellyaching over methodology. The End result is going to be the same its just a question of how and when we get there. Giving more time to Saddam is plain stupid. Is the rest of the world ( the ancient powers of the past) to naive to see whats going on? If they are then I'd rather they be on the opposing side, Idiots make great enemies, they are easier to defeat that way. Dubya may or may not be right, but the sun even shines on a dogs A**hole from time to time. Ramon |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by cerebus on Mar 16th, 2003, 8:06pm another brief note.... there is alot of talk about Post-war Iraq and what reponsibilities the U.S. has when we achieve our goal. whatever that truly is. I personally say give em what they want. Post-war Iraq will be what it is now and has always been, a freakin DESERT! Go in, handle our business, and leave. After all, it was our occupation of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia that pissed the Fundimentalists off in the first place. If the Arab world is going to get mad that we are actually trying to help re-build afterward then just leave and let THEM handle it. Ramon When a mushroom cloud in the shape of Saddam Hussein's head appears over western europe, I don't want to hear any Europeans complaining about it. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 16th, 2003, 8:17pm You quoted me twice..........okay................not very fatual anyhow......... Charlie you know WHAT OF WE WERE SPEAKIN/// >:( |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 16th, 2003, 8:17pm You quoted me twice..........okay................not very fatual anyhow......... Charlie you know WHAT OF WE WERE SPEAKIN/// >:( |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by kim on Mar 16th, 2003, 8:17pm You quoted me twice..........okay................not very fatual anyhow......... Charlie you know WHAT OF WE WERE SPEAKIN/// >:( |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by cerebus on Mar 16th, 2003, 8:49pm Kim, no offense intended, but I don't believe that I QUOTED anyone ;). I agree with many of the views offered here, I just wanted to state an opinion as it seemed to be the trend... Ramon |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Jarvis on Mar 16th, 2003, 9:20pm In the end if war comes I feel confident that at least the major majority will stand together as one in support of our commitments. Untill then we are all going to have an opinion that varies. After all that is the american way, argue like mad and then sit down shut up and and let destiny lead the way. Hoping everyone had a say to help to quide our direction. Ok we will probably still argue. Cerebus - Canadians dont live abroad. ;) |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by cerebus on Mar 16th, 2003, 9:39pm Yeah.....I know Jarvis...kinda sucks to be joined at the hip with a bunch of trigger happy rednecks huh? LOL! Ramon |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Charlie on Mar 16th, 2003, 10:06pm Your post that says I quoted you twice, was posted three times. Did I quote you twice? I'll have to look again. I never tell you that you don't know anything that your are talking about. What is it with neo-conservatives that shut out even the possibility that not everything they say is etched in stone? As I posted earlier, It was George Bush The First that created this mess by not finishing the job in 1991. By pulling out, he allowed this murderer to remain in power to contunue his work. Bill Clinton had nothing to do with itl. Charlie |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by jmorgan52 on Mar 17th, 2003, 1:03am Have you noticed anything fishy about the inspection teams who have arrived in Iraq? They're all men! How in the name of United Nations does anyone expect Men to find Saddam's stash? We all know that men have a blind spot when it comes to finding things. For crying out loud! Men can't find the dirty clothes hamper. Men can't find the jar of jelly until it falls out of the cupboard and splatters on the floor.... and these are the people we have sent into Iraq to search for hidden weapons of mass destruction? I keep wondering why groups of mothers weren't sent in. Mothers can sniff out secrets quicker than a drug dog can find a gram of dope. Mothers can find gin bottles that dads have stashed in the attic beneath the rafters. They can sniff out a diary two rooms and one floor away. They can tell when the lid of a cookie jar has been disturbed and notice when a quarter inch slice has been shaved off a chocolate cake. A mother can smell alcohol on your breath before you get your key in the front door and can smell cigarette smoke from a block away. By examining laundry, a mother knows more about her kids than Sherlock Holmes. And if a mother wants an answer to a question, she can read an offender's eyes quicker than a homicide detective. So... considering the value a mother could bring to an inspection team, why are we sending a bunch of old men who will rely on electronic equipment to scout out hidden threats? My mother would walk in with a wooden soup spoon in one hand, grab Saddam by the ear, give it a good twist and snap, "Young man, do you have any weapons of mass destruction?" And God help him if he tried to lie to her. She'd march him down the street to some secret bunker and shove his nose into a nuclear bomb and say, "Uh huh, and what do you call this, mister?" Whap! Thump! Whap! Whap! Whap! And she'd lay some stripes across his bare bottom with that soup spoon, then march him home in front of the whole of Baghdad. He'd not only come clean and apologize for lying about it, he'd cut every lawn in Baghdad for free for the whole damn summer. Inspectors my ass... You want the job done? Call my mother. |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by BobG on Mar 17th, 2003, 1:36am Good one :D I'd laugh out load but I'm afraid your mother would hear and smack me with her wooden soup spoon. Bob(LMAOquietly)G |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Lenny on Mar 17th, 2003, 9:47am Ramon ( cerebus ), I have been sitting on the sidelines following this post and promised myself not to get involved, But i just want to let you know that , YOU get my"STANDING-OVATION". I THANK YOU !!!! |
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Title: Re: 10 Ways to Avoid War Post by Jarvis on Mar 17th, 2003, 11:12pm OK!!!!! THAT"S IT. I'm tellin everybodies moms. ;D ;D ;D |
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