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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by lonenightowl on Feb 10th, 2003, 8:40pm THANK YOU !!! And another thank you to the famalies of theese brave men and women!!! Billy |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by ShariRae on Feb 10th, 2003, 8:59pm IMHO...those that dont like it here, GTF out! huggzz Shari |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by BobG on Feb 10th, 2003, 9:02pm I'm very thankful for those that have served and those going into harms way today. What did the material s-l-u-t and Seanie do now? I'm behind in my glorify-the-stars-newspaper-hype. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Roxy on Feb 10th, 2003, 9:15pm The town I live outside of has a very large AF Base. It's a training base, and home of the NATO pilot training school. We see these men on a daily basis. They are somewhat worried, but also courageous in their thoughts, and in what they know they are going to have to do. We always shake their hands and wish them luck. And, God...they are all so young...... |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 10th, 2003, 9:23pm No matter what this thing means....Sean Penn...I guess. What dope by the way. Material s. l. u. t. ....Madonna? Not sure of that one. Anyway, you can add my name to the list. I know a ton of people to thank; some of whom never made it back while making sure our little contract is pretty much intact. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 10th, 2003, 9:25pm Were they married? It just hit me. Never gave a shit either Losing it old Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ree on Feb 10th, 2003, 11:37pm I only have one thing to say... UNCLE SAM TAKE GOOD CARE OF MY BOYS AND TO SEAN GOD SPEED SON... IM GONNA MISS YOU... REE |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 10th, 2003, 11:43pm I spent some time at that wall reading names for an hour or so, middle of the night, dead silence. Even at midnight, a steady stream of reverent and silent visitors seemed all at once full of sadness, pride, respect, disgust, you name it. Emotions run high along that wall. Freedom is an amazing thing to have, and easy to forget when you have it. It would be a good thing if everybody understood the price of freedom, and the price of complacency. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Roxy on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:09am I honestly think that every American should be required to spend at least 3 mths. in a third world country....a country where you have no rights or freedom. We are complacent and spoiled, and we take most of our freedoms for granted. When you live in a country where there are no freedoms...you become very grateful and respectful of them. Sometimes you will even gratefully kiss the ground when you get off the plane. After living it...I'll never bitch about taxes or anything else again. This is something I take very seriously. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Jarvis on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:24am I too shed a few tears at that wall... I visited at 2 am on a silent snowy night. There was no one around. I walked through the korean war monument in the dark and stood with the soldiers cast in bronze, I felt what they felt and I went to the wall, I read the names of some I knew and many others who had lost there lives. I sat at the feet of Abraham Lincoln and looked down on our capital and I returned to the wall. It was one of the most moving experiences of my life. One that words can never describe. . Freedom is not free! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by dannyboy on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:54am You know jonny, when I read your dumbass posts some times i yearn for a return to facism. Quite right my brother... it's not free, no I just hope that nit wit Bush errs on the side of caution... so far so good... but he's a bit of a hillbilly, never know what the goofball will do next. knida like you Now shut up before I have you fukken killed GBA Danny |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by BobG on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:16am I saw in the paper a few days ago where the ACLU wants to stop the placing of religious symbols on federal property. You know, Christian crosses, Star of David, those sort of things. Kinda gonna fuck up Arlington Cemetery a little ain't it >:( |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Linda_Howell on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:55am Hey...BobG..............have I told ya lately that I love ya? Linda Howell |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Linda_Howell on Feb 11th, 2003, 2:09am Oh!......and a P.S to Dannny boy. GO AWAY...... Go far far away............... LindaH |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by suzy617 on Feb 11th, 2003, 2:55am on 02/11/03 at 00:09:52, Roxy wrote:
So true Roxy. My son used to call me from Bosnia, telling me stories of how the little kids would beg for food all the time and the parents would come home from work never knowing if their houses were still standing or just a shell from being bombed. I cried to think of all the suffering. I greatly admire each and every one of our service men and women and I pray for each of their safe returns to their families. suzy |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cbolony on Feb 11th, 2003, 5:03am Anybody who is far left in this country wants freedom with out war forgetaboutit kill them.Any country thats not with us nuke them.We lost a lot of americans for other peoples FREEDOM.Dig up the graves of our men in France and bring them home. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Hound_Dogg on Feb 11th, 2003, 6:34am Uh oh...do I smell political debate...No wait...that's just me! Forgot to shower again. I would fight for this country again in a heart-beat. But I would make sure it's put into my contract..."I believe in my Country, and will fight to the death for her. But I'm not doing this for our CHICKEN-HAWK President. I'm doing it for her." If you don't like what's happening in this Country GTF up and do something about it. Rock the Vote. Jim |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by TomM on Feb 11th, 2003, 7:52am Quote:
jonny--relax. You're preaching to the choir, man. TomM |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Mark C on Feb 11th, 2003, 8:58am |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 11th, 2003, 9:01am Dannyboy, What Linda said with a long long list of expletives. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE YOU FUCKHEAD. My husband, and many of the people on this board have gone and fought for your fucking right to even say what you said. How dare you tell Jonny to shut up or threaten him when he is giving all of us something IMPORTANT to think about and remember. GEe, do you think I'm pissed?? You are nothing but a little scumbag, Aussie is leaving this board to go there, my girlfriends husband left on Sunday, my husband will likely have to go a AGAIN. He's done Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo Afghanastin, ....most of these fucking places ASKED THE US TO COME AND HELP. We didn't insert ourselves they asked, we went then they fucking shit on us. My husbands life and Rees son's lives and the lives of every other service member is the cost of that fucking statement carved in granite. How dare you , you disgust me in a way I can't begin to describe. Crawl back under your fucking rock and keep your mouth shut. Better yet, MOVE TO FUCKING IRAQ Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 11th, 2003, 9:08am To everyone else, Myself and my family spent time looking at those bronze cast statues....with hollow eyes that are haunting. The names on the wall that never seem to end, a family that left a loved ones medal at the base of the wall, watching my daughter cry at the wall as she comprehends the enormity of the sacrifice. Reading the walls in the lincoln memorial. It's a moving experience in a way I never imagined I would be moved. The haunting eyes of those statues will forever remind me of all the names and lives that allow us to be free. Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Melissa on Feb 11th, 2003, 9:12am With a history of both of my grandfathers in WWII, my father in Vietnam, and currently 2 brother-in-laws and a first cousin in the United States Marine Corps., I can't help but be thankful and grateful to them for the jobs they have, or are currently doing. At this certain time, we need to back all of our military, no matter what happens, or what political party thinks they're right or wrong. For those men and women in the military are the ones making the true sacrifice, that we here in the USA can speak, act lawfully, think and demonstrate freely without duress or consequence. .....Mel |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by kissmyglass on Feb 11th, 2003, 9:54am Yes, Thanks to all the men & women in our armed forces...You are what makes us the greatest country on the planet & allow me to do what I want when I want....Thanks you! Lets Roll..... Kev C Maybe if Dannyboy were on the 100th floor of one of the towers, like my friend, He'd have a different attitude... Fuck You Dannyboy |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by dannyboy on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:17am Having a bad day are we? Guess the satire passed you by eh? Tell you what sugar pie/s, start by reading jonny's posts and then read mine, if that doesn't work, try the shrooms. GBA ... God Bless America Danny P.S. Did I just explain myself? it must be your lucky day, I Never do that for anyone ever. Oh well |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Roxy on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:33am dannyboy, I would add a few words here if I thought they were needed.....http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/soapbox.gif but, I think Cat took care of it very well. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cootie on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:39am FREE AS THE " WIND "............thanks to everyone that is or has tried to preserve freedom...............Pam |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by dannyboy on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:46am Bush is a goofy. He chokes on pretzels, can't say neuclear... what more do I need to say? The guy is goofy I didn't say don't go to war. On the contrary, Powell summed it up perfectly when he said "When Hitler marched into the Rhineland, good men said, 'don't go to war'", and that decision was the start of the second world war. I say go to war, but do it carefully. If that offends you, then God Bless America, here's one for freedom of speech...fuck you Danny |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Leesa on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:51am Being an Air Force brat, married to military men in the past, having LOADS of friends in the military I thank them each and every day for what they do and have done for me and my family. I've lost many family members (most I never knew) and friends in the wars and "conflicts" as some call them that this GREAT country has been involved in. My father said it best. "If you don't like freedom of speach, press, reliegon, and your right to keep and bare arms then GET THE FUCK OUT" Without these men and woman whom have lived and died for US we dont have these freedoms. Without our Military men and woman fighting to keep us safe from people like Bin-Lauden and Hussain then where in the hell would we be. I can tell ya, try DEAD!!!! I for one dont want to be dead just yet. So for all the Military all over the world that protect myself and my family I THANK YOU and SUPPORT YOU 110% GOD BLESS OUR MILITARY AND THE FAMILYS!!!!!! To the folks that are talking anti war it clear to me that they would rather live WITHOUT their freedom & they can kiss my lily white, peach fuzz ass! >:( IF ya don't like then LEAVE IT!! The door is thata way----------------> and dont let it hit ya on the way OUT!! I LOVE MY FEEDOM ;D |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:54am Dannyboy, your ignorance is showing through in flying colors. The president has nothing to do with the oath that the service members take. They swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America. It doesn't matter who sits in the white house, our service men and women defend our constitution. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by dannyboy on Feb 11th, 2003, 11:02am Apology accepted Catlind |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by JDH on Feb 11th, 2003, 11:11am I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. God Bless America!!! Jim |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 11th, 2003, 11:34am Dannyboy is goofy. Can't even spell nuclear. What more do I need to say? -Fu on 02/11/03 at 10:46:45, dannyboy wrote:
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by brain_cramps on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:09pm on 02/11/03 at 11:34:04, fubar wrote:
Bahahaha! ::) ;D |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cbolony on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:23pm Catlind loved all your posts. Dannyboy is one of the far left people in this country that i am talking about KILL THEM ALL the USA will be a better place |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by don on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:31pm Quote:
Been there done that and GOD BLESS AMERICA. Don't want to sound ignorant but Fuck It, where is the location of that wall? The wall that just became my wallpaper. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 11th, 2003, 12:41pm Don, That is carved in the wall at the Korean war memorial in the national mall in DC. Going to those places are life changing in many ways. I tried to capture a photo of the soldiers cast in bronze to show the hollow haunted eyes, but it just doesn't show on film http://home.twcny.rr.com/clind/korwarstatue.jpg Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by BruceD on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:01pm Amen Jonny... Freedom is not free at all. It was earned & paid for by the blood sweat & tears of men & women before me. Unfortunately, that freedom was not "paid in full" and continues to require constant diligence & "payment" to maintain. Unlike others here I, myself, haven't served in our military. However I have countless family members who have proudly served (and a few who have unfortunately died) for our country. Although I haven't been to DC I can only imagine the emotions that visiting any of the memorials must elicit. I read a newspaper article by a writer from St Louis who was out at the Superbowl. He talked about being in one of the bars the night before the game and seeing football fans having fun, but also noticed a table of rather somber men & women drinking in the corner. He went over & talked with them and found that they were military and shipping out the next morning. The one line that touched me most was when one of the men was asked about the game. He said something like "Those guys get paid millions of dollars to play a game ... you know how much I made last year? $14,000 .. I get paid $14k a year to take a bullet" Kinda' makes you think about priorities. Thank you to all who serve and also those that they leave behind. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by BobG on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:12pm Hey Hound Dogg...Chicken Hawks....check this out. During my first tour in Vietnam I worked at a medical laboratory. One of my buddies was a combat photographer assigned to the pathology department. His job was to take pictures during autopsies. You know, brains destroyed but bullets, guts opened up by shrapnel, that sort of thing. Today he owns the New Hampshire Gazette and runs a list of Chicken Hawks. http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ted on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:20pm on 02/11/03 at 05:03:32, cbolony wrote:
Of course we do. I'd imagine everyone would want freedom without war (well, the sane people, of course. There's some far-right that want war for any reason). Unfortunately, that's not always possible. Now, when you imply the far-left are the only ones against THIS war I wonder if you consider Bush Sr.'s National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft, who was very involved in the war in Iraq 1, part of the far left? Or Kissinger? |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by don on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:20pm Thats RIGHT! Now I remember. Thanks Cat. Of all the memorials in DC, the Korean Memorial had the most profound affect on me. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Lenny on Feb 11th, 2003, 1:26pm Germany,France and South Korea,fuck these countries,look what we have done for them and for them to say anything about us or for their citizens to burn our flag. I say boycott anything from these countries.France and Germany are filled with towelhead's,FUCK EM ( hopefully i am not offending any of you,just how i feel ).How about paying some respect to Mr.Bush and Mr.Blair ( London has a ton of towelheads aswell ). Again i hope i did not offend anyone from these 3 FUCKED up countries ( its your gov.). Last but not least,this is the greatest country in the world and i thank god that i am free to say what i feel and do what i want,last but not least,thank god that i am an AMERICAN !!! Say a prayer for those men and women that will be putting their lives on the line for our freedom and please never forget 9-11 :'( :'( !!!!! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Hound_Dogg on Feb 11th, 2003, 2:06pm " If you don't like it...GTF out, don't let the door hit you in the ass, or whatever lame saying ends it"... This statement is the most Un-American, Non-freedom quote, if ever I've heard one. But I've heard at least two or three people use this statement in this thread. I'm sure King George III, would of loved to use this quote to the American Patriots in 1775. "Hey, you don't like Taxation without Representation...well then GTF out". or General Lee in 1862 " Hey, you don't like to own humans as slaves, well then GTF out." I usually don't like to discuss politics with anyone because no matter what you think, half the Country disagrees. But this quote just kills me. Do you realize how arrogant that makes us look. That quote has nothing in common with 'freedom". If you don't like it in this wonderful place...yeah, you're free to leave, you're also free to protest, free to attempt to change it or just free to do nothing. You're free. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by TomM on Feb 11th, 2003, 4:13pm Quote:
First...I HEARD nothing. The statelment read... Second...Equating this to being Un-American? Please. Third...We did GTFO long before 1775, my freind. That is why it's the U.S. of A. Forth...Just becasue 50% may disagree is no reason not to have an opinion and dicsuss the issues intelligently. The most disheartening part of your post is the Un-American statement. That comes from someone who never served and has no idea what it means to be an "American". Your ignorance shown through, my freind and you demonstrated to me very clearly that you have no idea what freedom is and what it takes to get it, polish it, and maintain it. You struck a cord with this VETERAN! TomM |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cootie on Feb 11th, 2003, 4:25pm OK...back ta bein patriotic.....here is the poem on the Biker Memorial Wall in Hopedale Ohio....."many-many" of these people were also Veterans which is why I'm postin it here......we had my freinds names put on this year and have several freinds already there (almost all of them Veterans).....we ride with a group and the family as an annual event now ta visit and pay respects. Hope this fits in here ok......it is an EXTREME expirience one never forgets.............le-honk- Pam.....God Bless ! Poem by Dan Waterfield : Within this quiet and shaded grove are written the names of those brothers and sisters who have gone before us. It is fitting that their names are carved into this rock as they are so indelibly etched in our hearts and minds. As you read these words listen for the far off rumble of thunder for it is the sound of their steeds of steel streaming through the heavens. Feel the gentle touch of the summer wind and know that it is the warmth of the love that binds us together. And if your eyes become misted, shed tears for yourself and not for them. For the road they ride puts the sun in their faces and the wind at their backs. God has blessed us to have known these souls when they were among us. We pray he will bless us to be reunited when it is our time...................to take the final ride. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ted on Feb 11th, 2003, 4:30pm on 02/11/03 at 16:13:28, TomM wrote:
Isn't that exactly what his point is? How do you get an intelligent conversation or show your opinion when you're talking to people who are telling you to blindly follow AND believe everything the government tells you or leave the country? Believing people should go into exile because they have a different view than their govt's is NOT showing respect for freedom. Many totalitarian nations do that (and worse, of course). ANd that's crap saying if you're not a veteran or presently serving in the armed forces you have no idea what it means to be an American. I never served and I know JUST what it is to be an American. For what it's worth, neither Cheney nor Rumsfeld (Nor many prominent chickenhawks in the gov't today) served either. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by TomM on Feb 11th, 2003, 5:09pm Herein lies the problem with BB's and IM. I did not mean to imply that ONLY veterans, active duty, or reservists know what it means to be an American. Please accept my apologies if that is how my statement is read. Quote:
TomM |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ted on Feb 11th, 2003, 5:15pm on 02/11/03 at 17:10:46, pigeon wrote:
Well, since this is an international board with many, many nations represented here, I'd have to say no. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by 2late on Feb 11th, 2003, 5:49pm thank you veterans!! patriotism has been lost for years while i was thinkin' about "real" important shit like movin' up at werk, scooter time & the list goes on & on all of wich would be impossible without FREEDOM! i for one, since 9-11, will never ever take it for granted again!! ........2late |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cbolony on Feb 11th, 2003, 6:04pm I just hope that nit wit Bush errs on the side of caution... so far so good... but he's a bit of a hillbilly, never know what the goofball will do next. Dannyboy he's going to drop this http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/images/daisycutter_110701.gif |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 11th, 2003, 6:12pm The difference between a patriot and a zealot is a patriot says my country because I believe it's right, a zealot say my country right or wrong. That's my hubby's quote. What is it to be American? I support the troops from more than one country in the fight against terrorism and the price they pay for freedoms. For what it's worth, I am not an American Citizen. I'm a Canadian Citizen. I am a permanent resident of the USA and will take my oath sometime after April 6 of this year. My anger at Dannyboy's post is because he displayed a total lack of understanding at what the meaning of Freedom is not Free is. That is not a political statement. I said earlier, the troops in the US take an oath to uphold the constitution, it doesn't matter who sits in the white house. Politically I try to avoid discussions as no one will ever agree 100%. But Freedom is not Free, that is not just American, that is true for every free nation on this earth. The price is blood and it's a high price, but I for one, believe our soldiers and sailor's and airmen and marines, pay it willingly to allow us all to be able to say exactly what we are saying on this board. Freedom is not Free does not apply just to a potential war with Iraq. It applies to all who value Freedom. In war, no one wins. But there are times when war is the price of maintaining our freedoms. I do not like war, and would love to avoid it. But if my husband is called to duty, I will support him 100% whether I agree with the war or not is a seperate issue. My husband (and all other military members) answer the call because they believe in their service to their country. Okay, I think I should probably STFU now :) Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cootie on Feb 11th, 2003, 6:27pm Life and death is what gives this life a point.....Pam |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ueli on Feb 11th, 2003, 7:18pm I too think Freedom is one of our most valuable goods. (You Americans have no monopoly on it; after all in our country we started to kick out the usurpers 712 years ago ;)) But what is beyond my grasp, is the prominent notion in this thread that freedom can be preserved, or even advanced, by killing thousands of children and women in a far away country. Can somebody enlighten me, please? To me, the main purpose of many posters here is to preserve, or even advance, the picture of the Ugly American. :'( Peace to the whole world, Ueli |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cluster0557 on Feb 11th, 2003, 10:11pm Ueli In some ways you hit on the nose. Americans are not the only ones in the world who are, but, we are one of the few nations in the world in the 20th century who has gone to bat at a high cost for other free nations. In the 21st Century we see those same nations saying fuck you to us over current world conditions. I am ex Military and damn proud of the values it instilled in me. Am I a war monger no I am not. But I believe as a nation we need to deal with the issues Busch is going after. Semperfi Do and Die. |
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Title: freedom of expression Post by rumplestiltskin on Feb 11th, 2003, 11:09pm In my country the law protects this freedom. This law is often broken by those who have vowed to uphold it. When I watched the "great society" followed by the Nixon's Rangers try to silence and break the spirit of those of us who said "Stop the war" in the sixties...I woke up...and have watched and mistrusted them ever since. They do not disappoint....and they have gotten a whole shitload scarier. I use that freedom to shout "Stop this War" and use my other freedoms to support all efforts to thwart it. I hear what yer sayin Ueli.... Freedom is a birthright of every earth citizen....it just costs more in some places. Peace den |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Marc on Feb 11th, 2003, 11:28pm My 12 year old daughter is a very kind and sensitive child who watches politics closely. She uses a simple one word description for people who feel that Iraq is not a problem and that we should mind our own business: Ostrich How we deal with it is the question - not IF. Marc |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Jarvis on Feb 12th, 2003, 12:08am Ueli - as compared to some countries we are but children. As many posts here show we are the teenagers in the world. We are 16 and know everything that there is to know. Spoiled at that. . How could the rest of the world not love us. They call us the ugly americans and I think this ones pretty damn good looking. Hurts my feelings. . Oh hell I'm just gonna blow them all up install a new world government and make them like me. Gonna put my picture up everywhere too untill the whole world agrees "I'm not ugly". I just got a haircut so the time is now. This cant wait! >:( .. ;) |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by dannyboy on Feb 12th, 2003, 4:38am "Neucluer".... now that was funny!!!!!!! No thanks, I don't want a pretzel Danny |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Bob P on Feb 12th, 2003, 9:16am War sucks, but somebody has to do it. We're not concerned because we want to spread our freedom throughout the world. We're just trying to stop some nutcase dictator before he supplies terrorists with weapons of mass destruction that will be used to kill Americans in their own country. Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do. Now, get out there in that rice paddy young man and take care of business. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Riccardo on Feb 12th, 2003, 9:54am OK ....my thoughts.... Is anyway a risky matter ..... but let me state some points: Sometimes, USA started (or partecipate) wars for some commercial interests. OK.......but... Many times, USA started (or partecipate) wars and saved millions of innocents. In any of these cases, americans have given their lives for the wars, they have paid with their own lives! Moreover, the 11 of September has given the political, religious, moral, logical authorization to USA to start ANY war against those that did that thing. Saddam Hussein is involved with Osama bin Laden, is a FACT. So, the war against them is a right that USA paid with 11 September. UN or not agreeing..... And who the fuck said "We will use atomic bombs"? Is very different to say "I will destroy you in any way, at least (AT LEAST!) with nuclear weapons" This don't mean that nuclear will be used! And million of innocents? Saddam himself killed more than half a million of people during the IRAQ/IRAK war!!! Who started this? AMERICA? And why America have to kill a million of innocents? Doesn't exist the "intelligent" bombs? Are the militar chiefs so stupid to massacre Iraqui people just to do something? I think not! To be against the war is so easy, but those that are against the war have to remember that the most of the Nations they live in were helped from the US Army to be FREE (10, 100 or 200 years ago, doesn't matter!) NEVER FORGET THIS! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Lenny on Feb 12th, 2003, 10:16am Riccardo, Great Post !! This american would like to "THANK YOU" !! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 12th, 2003, 10:20am Riccardo, that was well put. But the US does not hold the monopoly on helping to free suffering peoples, the US just has the largest military. Ueli, I hope you don't think of all of us ugly americans. I have posted in this thread a few times to try to preserve the point of the thread, that Freedom is not Free. Preserving and advancing freedom is not something proactive, but generally reactive, i.e. sept 11. While the US has been the largest player in responding to the war on terrorism, it is not the only member. I support ALL the countries and service members who pay the cost of the freedoms for each and every nation on this earth that is free. I don't think the point of this thread was ever intended to be (Jonny's original message) a political debate, a right or wrong, or to show Americans as good bad or ugly. It was to say thank you to ALL who have paid the ultimate price for our freedoms, in the US, in Canada, in Australia, in the UK, in Italy all over the world. IMHO it is a reminder to all that there is a price for what we take for granted. The right to even discuss our disagreements. Freedom, many definitions for many people in many places around the world. But none can be defined as having been free. There was a very high price paid, and that is what I believe people all over the world should remember. The price, the names that go with that price, and the families that carry on because their loved ones paid that ultimate price. Okay, this time I really will STFU Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by jimbo on Feb 12th, 2003, 11:05am Frenchman says in a whiney little girlie voice. "Uncle Sam! Uncle Sam! Please help us, we are being invaded by the nazi's and they are going to take over our country" Uncle Sam says, "Sure! no problem! we will be right there. (U.S. saves their country for them at the cost of 1000's of American lives) Frenchman says, "Who is going to repair our country? Who will pay for all this damage? Uncle Sam says, "We will! no problem." (Billions that we are still owed and will never collect) Frenchman says, "How can we ever repay you? (Even though it was probably never said) Uncle Sam says, "Maybe sometime down the road, we will need a little help ourselves" Frenchman says, "GO FUCK YOURSELF" >:( Jim |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Hound_Dogg on Feb 12th, 2003, 11:24am Tom, First let me say...you are very, very wrong about me not serving...Served in both the re-flagged Kuwaiti issue in 1987 & Desert Storm. I've killed 3 humans for my Country. Countless more if you count the 16" 50 cal. shells we used to bombard Iraq with. I am not proud of this fact. In fact, it will haunt my living days & nights like only someone who has done this, would understand. www.ussmissouri.com Maybe I went a little far in saying Un-american...but the statement upsets me in that it's not Patriotic to Blindly go where your Government leads or if something is wrong to not want to change it through your vote or through whatever way we are allowed. To just say to someone, "if you don't like it Get out." is not what America was founded on. In fact, to me it sounds like a bad Archie Bunker comment. I believe it was "If you don't like the way things are going, Do something about it." That the Free World, not just America, is founded upon. Maybe my post came off as not the way I intended. If that is the case I apologize. Jim |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ueli on Feb 12th, 2003, 1:22pm jimbo, you've got the last line wrong :D, it should be: Frenchman says, "We are old enough to know you need no help to test your new un-manned tank robots (and we hope they can distinguish terrorists from civilians) and we don't feel obliged to help Mr. Bush to pay back the election campaign contributions." BTW, I'm glad to note that the most ugly post has been retracted again, the one full of racist and fascist ideas. There is hope :) Ueli |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by cathy on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:06pm on 02/12/03 at 11:05:16, jimbo wrote:
I have thought long and hard before posting on this but feel a that I must firstly point out that the USA did not enter the second world war at the request of the french...they entered the war because of a pre-emtive strike by the japanese on 'Pearl Harbour' on December 7th 1941 by this time France was already occupied by the germans and had been since 1940, after the fall of Dunkirk. US and Great Britain and it's Empire Forces liberated France. Im sorry and this is only directed at you, but it is this sort of ignorance and arrogance that perpetuates anti-american feelings around the world. Now I've got that off my chest.....Freedom does not come for Free and I am grateful for all those soldiers, sailors and airmen who have died and who may die to preserve my freedom, I thank them all and my thoughts are with all their families here and with you all in USA. Cathy |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Bob P on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:26pm Ain't nuttin' worse than a ignernt merican. Right hub? |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by ZAIRA on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:37pm Well done Ricky, I think about the matter exactly as you, and hope that the devil in Iraq will be “Killed”! Zaira on 02/12/03 at 09:54:08, Riccardo wrote:
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by brain_cramps on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:39pm on 02/12/03 at 14:06:32, cathy wrote:
I was going to point this out, but didn't want to be labeled as 'un-American'. Hey, wait a minute. My name is Grant and I AM CANADIAN. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:49pm I have read some of this with great interest. I am a liberal, but I think we have reached a crossroads in history with specific regard to foreign policy. GWB's tactics may yet prove to be the right ones; however, all of that being said, I am not sure he is taking us down the right path. This is the antithesis of "speak softly and carry a big stick". He is talking VERY loudly and I think that may get us into more trouble than we want. The backlash against American foreign policy is not unjustified. We have strong-armed lots of people in the past and left their asses out in the wind when we were done. This is due, in large part, to corporate influences over the past 60 years or so. Eisenhower warned of the military industrial complex and he was a Republican....and ex-General... Had we been more interested in building Afghanistan in the 1970's and 80's instead of wanting to tow the party line and see communism defeated, al quaeda may not have taken root (or, at the very least, the anarchistic state it was left in after the Soviets pulled out). We'll see.... I certainly think that our top priorities right now are this: 1. bin Laden...He needs to be killed. Period. 2. N Korea 3. MAYBE Iraq. In reality, they are a minor player in Middle East policy. You wanna shake up things over there? Twist the Saudis' nuts. Did you see how much they bristled when they were accused of paying suicide bombers' families? They hate being labeled as terrorists. Plus, they (not goddamn Iraq or Kuwait) control OPEC and oil in that region. At any rate, this "love it or leave it" stuff is absurd. I thank the troops of the past and present every day for their sacrifices. I NEVER thank a govt. for putting me in harm's way. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:56pm My aunt always told me never discuss politics or religion with your friends. But what did she know? She was a stupid republican catholic moron.... |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 12th, 2003, 2:56pm My aunt always told me never discuss politics or religion with your friends. But what did she know? She was a stupid republican catholic moron.... But it's fun, ya know!!! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by CathiP on Feb 12th, 2003, 4:27pm Okay, well, I'm pretty much conditioned to keep my mouth closed in regard to religion, politics & sex- at the very least, keep my opinions to myself :-X.... BUT, as Brian Y pointed out....this has to stop! Marc's daughter gets it, and she's 12....HELLOOO! I dunno about everyone else, but I positively dread the thought of war....but each day that goes by, my knees get shakier, my stomach does more flip flops, and I have to wonder how close we are to another 9/11 disaster? Are we not just awaiting the inevitable? Plenty of my childrens' friends are serving right now, as well as my nephew- I'd like to know that they, along with Aussie, Catlind's husband & friends, and so many more, do not have to fight this- but they will be joining with men & women from other countries as well, over there, to prevent this rabid force from destroying not just OUR nation, but many nations...not caring one bit about what they leave in their wake. One of Cathy's MB mates in UK left a few week ago. KellyDawn is on the UK board, and in the RAF ( if I remember correctly)- you might have posted in threads with her. I hate that they ALL have to go fight for our countries- but I'm glad to know that someone will......maybe that's what I believe....Hussein, Bin Ladin the Al Qaida must be destroyed, before they are capable of destroying all of us. To all who have fought, or will be fighting now, thank you. I'm smart enough to know freedom, as well as peace comes with a price. And, still, I will pray for peace. Cathi |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by oringkid on Feb 12th, 2003, 5:43pm I shouldn't, but I will...... I am an American. Born and raised. I have served my country (in the Navy) and loved it. I am a mother, and mothers have an inbred instinct to protect their young. (yes even most humans) I thank those who have in the past fought for our freedom and continue to do so now. However!... I believe that killing other humans is wrong. "Two wrongs, do not make a right" I also believe that we, as a species, will, due to this predeliction for violence, destroy ourselves. And what a waste that will be! There is such potential in our species....but it is negated by our indifference or active hostility towards the miracle of life. The amazing wonder that we are at all! As many of you know, I do not believe in God as most do. But I do believe in the miracle of life and love and beauty in everything. So this is not a religious rant. Just my humble opinion. But for those who do believe in God and the Bible, (I didn't become an atheist without checking all the possibilities) how many have read and remember Revelations?.....nuf said there I would think. Now to balance all this out...I also believe that we are in a quandry. We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. The best we could hope for is some sort of intervention where all possible tools of destruction were suddenly and immediately removed from the earth!! Course if that happened, I would be typing in the air as computers would suddenly disappear! LOL ;D (the ultimate fence-sitter) Sherry |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 12th, 2003, 6:18pm Jonny's original post, I thought, was directed at the ABSURD mis-guided media fuckheads like Madonna who are using their hypnotic grasp on their congregations to lead them down clearly anti-American paths of thought. Shit, that thingy is so anti-American, she has adopted a fake euro-british accent. She's as twisted as Michael let-your-boy-sleep-in-my-bed Jackson, albeit in an entirely different way. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 13th, 2003, 2:19am Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. Sir Winston Churchill (not what one would call a weak-kneed liberal....actually he switched parties once or twice) I don’t think anyone here would argue with this. The man knew what, when, where, and why, when it came to old men sending young men off to war. From what I see, this thing is going to happen. It’s nothing to approach with glee...too many of those who are in charge, behave this way. George Bush, who makes Ronald Reagan look good, and uses language that makes it inevitable. I think it’s too late and I hope we don’t become the victims of the very weapons he has hidden. Someone said that invading Iraq is like putting up a recruiting poster for bin Laden. So far, I still think that. Give the rest of the UN a few weeks; name a cutoff date to come on board, without Germany and France perhaps, but not necessarily. I’d like to have information but it‘s unlikely George Bush will explain it because his administration is the most secretive in history. They are dangerous too...perhaps more so. If we have to go, the military has my support. Nevertheless, George Bush will have to work harder than they to get it. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by tommyD on Feb 13th, 2003, 8:05am All praise and honor to our military, they have defended America well for more than 200 years, providing us the security needed so democracy and freedom can grow. I see a lot of people giving credit to the military for our freedom, but I'm afraid they take it a little too far. The military can only provide the security. It is necessary, but not sufficient, for freedom. Freedom and democracy is up to us civilians, and it isn't free. We have to work at it, constantly. The USA, following a tradition and philosophy established by the British, has always kept a wall between politics and the military, and this has served us well. Nations without such a wall suffer repeated military coups, and these often lead to dictatorships, because generals want to run nations the way they run armies. And a democratic army would be a failure as well as a contradiction in terms. Troops don't get to vote on when to advance or retreat - an army can't operate that way. Are Saddam and Osama threats to our freedom? Only indirectly, if we civilians let them be so. Are they capable of invading and occupying the US? No. Can they frighten us into giving up our freedoms voluntarily? I hope not, but our "leaders" apparently hope so. To me, there is a bigger, more direct threat to American Democracy, and this war Shrub's insisting on is serving as an excuse. John Ashcroft's Justice Dept. is working on draft legislation that, if adopted, would count as the biggest loss of freedom and liberty since... hell I don't know since what... Don't know what I'm talking about? Not surprising, the news media is only beginning to cover this. It's being called Patriot Act II (official name: Domestic Security Act of 2003), but there's nothing patriotic about it, in my opinion. Here's a link: http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lewis.html What does freedom mean: investigative reporters uncovered the Patriot Act II, and you can download the actual draft legislation Ashcroft's people put together and read it for yourself. Look for links oon the PBS site, or go to www.publicintegrity.org/ Want to defend freedom? Participate in democracy. Write a letter to the editor, write your Congressman, visit his office in DC or local. Run for town council, school board, county commissioner. (Democracy in America is surviving best at the local level -- at state and federal level, where you have to be a politician to be there, there's too much buying and selling.) Freeedom is up to us. We count on our military to provide the security so we civilians can build it. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by TomM on Feb 13th, 2003, 8:49am Can I say one more thing? CH + meds = wierd posts that do not articulate clear thoughts. Tuesday and Wednesday were bad days. In other words, kuddos to Hound_Dogg, Ueli, Riccardo, and Catlind for setting the record straight. TomM |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by woobie on Feb 13th, 2003, 10:26am on 02/12/03 at 14:49:30, Brian_Y wrote:
I'm sorry.. i told myself I wasn't going to chime in on this.. but this kinda got me in a tizzy!! IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL!! Ya know, if in a year or so, Osama and Saddam get together and decide that 9/11 just wasn't good enough.. and we get bombarded with chemical / biological agents, who's gonna be bitchen that the government KNEW about their capabilities and their INSANE and ruthless leader that HAD them, and did NOTHING to stop it?? The same people bitchin that we don't need to stop Saddam.. that's who! France says.. "Let's give the inspectors a chance." Germany says "We need MORE inspectors to get the job done." Opposers in the USA say that "He is no threat to us.." (because you KNOW that AMERICA is ABOVE getting attacked! Right?? are we STILL sleeping?? Did 9/11 NOT wake us up to the fact that we, too, are vulnerable? we are NOT the only ones in this world immune to attacks.. but we ARE strong enough to stop them and protect ourselves.. THAT's the difference. But now we're bullies.. UGH!) Saddam has gone to great lengths to hide his weapons from the inspectors. I dont care how many inspectors you put in that country.. he's smart.. and he's not going to let them find anything. He's smart, but he's a LIAR and a KILLER, You CANNOT negotiate with people like him .. you cannot reason with him, you cannot sit down and have tea with him. He is a bully, ,and the only thing bullies understand is FORCE. We have threatened him, and he's STILL not doing what he's supposed to do.. so WTF is it that people want Bush to do? just sit here and wait?? See what they do next?? Then go thru another year of political debates on what to do about it THEN?? WOW, I dont think so. Yes, I think that Bush is going/ and WENT about it the wrong way. He should have NEVER announced that he was going to do it.. he shouldn't have given Saddam any time to hide his weapons. He shouldn't have given him time to think about what he's going to do to us when we invade. He should have just DONE IT! Shit, Saddam had at least two week notice that inspectors were coming.. Geeshh. The world will thank us later. Right now, they can say what they want. Even if you don't believe in the war or it's reasons, we should still support the military. THAT"S what this thread was about - they are the ones who have to go and do whatever the adminstration tells them to do. They dont ask for it.. God bless them all!! so i'm sorry to go off like that.. but DANG.. it's NOT about OIL!!! (Although, I'm sure they've thought about that, as a BONUS! ;)) And I do support the military, and am thankful for them every single day. sorry i went off .... i will STFU now. ;D go ahead.. flame me. geeeeez :-[ JMHO!!! tina :-* |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ted on Feb 13th, 2003, 11:17am OK. Where to start? I haven't heard or read anyone saying he is not a threat to us. What has been said is he's not the most serious threat to us and taking Saddam on now, so early in the war on terrorism, will make the fight more difficult and bloody for us since we'll lose a lot of support internationally and it'll enrage so many people in the Arabic world that many more terrorists will be recruited. Yes, Saddam is a threat to us. There are many threats to us and Saddam was being contained. Even our own intelligence agencies have said Saddam would never use his chemical weapons against us unless he thought we were going to go in there and remove him from power. HE WAS contained. MAybe at this point and time we'll have to go to war to contain him again since all of Bush's blustering and actions is showing him that he's not long going to remain in power, or possibly alive. Bush put us in that position, if this is so, however. Also, a preemptive war without an iminent threat is a dangerous precedent for the world. India or Pakistan can both now follow the precedent and start a nuclear war when one invades the other for some ellusive "preemptive" reason. Or, as we've seen North Korea say, if ew build up our fleet further in the Korean Penninsula, he may launch a "preemptive" strike against us. Bush is letting that precedent be made and it's going to bite us and the rest of the world right on the ass. I have yet to ese any proof linking Iraq and al-Qaeda. What Powell provided was that there are there members in Iraq. Well, there's members here in the US too. As a matter of fact, I fully expect we'll be getting hit hard with dirty bombs, chemical and/or biological weapons within a week by al Qaeda. Now, however, I think if there is a real link with Iraq and al Qaeda, we should be going into Iraq right now. Today! And not waste our time trying to win over France. We all know the Iraqi soldiers in the outer ring will surrender en masse to CNN film crews like last time. And French soldiers will surrender en masse to the approaching Iraqi POWs. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 13th, 2003, 12:21pm Tina, Don't be silly, of course it's about oil. And that's OK by me. America cannot afford to have a madman in control of our lifeblood, OIL. We can argue about how/when/why America should reduce it's dependence on foreign oil, but the fact is we cannot live without it today. Of course, there are many reasons Saddam has to go, and they are all valid. But you can't tell me he's any worse than other brutal dictators that we ignore (or support). The only difference with Saddam is that he has the potential to actually choke off our supply of oil. We cannot allow that to happen, of course, so there we are. The difference between me saying 'it's about oil' and the anti-war people saying 'this is blood for oil' is that I agree with the premise that blood may well have to be spilled to maintain the stability of the world economy, which unfortunately is based on OIL. Tell me how Saddam is different from Arafat. Arafat murders civilians DAILY. Why aren't we going in to kill him? Guess what, he doesn't control anything but terrorists. If he had oil fields and had demonstrated a desire to control the entire oil region, we'd probably take him out too. Saddam is clearly evil and needs to have his head handed to him. I don't think anybody disputes that. But please, don't put your head in the sand and fool yourself into thinking this isn't about oil. For us, it's about oil. For them, it's about US support of Israel, or our offensive practice of actually tolerating religions we don't agree with... or whatever radical-religiously justified fatwa. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by woobie on Feb 13th, 2003, 12:43pm me again...wanted to explain what i meant in some things.. i was in a hurry last post..lol ted said "I haven't heard or read anyone saying he is not a threat to us. i just heard that on the news.. from people at "peace" ralleys. and it pissed me off! i didn't mean that it's a general thought. i guess i should have said "emminent threat". Ted also said " Also, a preemptive war without an iminent threat is a dangerous precedent for the world. India or Pakistan can both now follow the precedent and start a nuclear war when one invades the other for some ellusive "preemptive" reason. Or, as we've seen North Korea say, if ew build up our fleet further in the Korean Penninsula, he may launch a "preemptive" strike against us. Bush is letting that precedent be made and it's going to bite us and the rest of the world right on the ass. i agree completely! BUT - if it were your loved ones killed in the next attack by terrorists, and you knew that the terrorist were getting their stuff from Iraq.. would you be givin a shit? ted also said I have yet to ese any proof linking Iraq and al-Qaeda. What Powell provided was that there are there members in Iraq. Well, there's members here in the US too. What he said was that Iraq is HARBORING them knowingly, and lying about their presence. We do not harbor them. That's the difference. and whoever said this ... Believing people should go into exile because they have a different view than their govt's is NOT showing respect for freedom. i agree.. IF that govt did not engage in inhumane treatment of their people - frequently, and makes it common practice. and IF that govt did not starve their people, and IF that govt did not strive to gain access to weapons of mass destruction to use against theirs or others. To me, that is different. There is such a thing as righteous indignation. Saddam Hussein's oldest son, Odai Hussein heads Iraq's Olympic Association and tortures athletes for poor performance, or losing a competition. There is a special room at the training facility specifically set up for "punishment". There's shock and torture equipment in there. (all of this is proven..) And that's just for the Olympic atheletes. The international Olympic committee is "investigating" this, but who knows what that will do for them!! WOW - This whole issue pisses me off!! I'm really done now. :) this is why i tried to stop myself from posting to this issue. i knew i wouldn't stop. I need help! (Hey JOnnny.. sorry man! ) tina :-* |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by woobie on Feb 13th, 2003, 12:48pm Hey Fubar.. ok you made me think .. again.. stop it!! Geez.. it's my day off! i could sit here and type for a long time!! LOL Tina :-* |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 13th, 2003, 1:20pm Woobie, I never said it was about oil. I used the Saudis as an example (i.e. oil) because it's about keeping the region stable. To say it's about oil is a pedestrian argument. Right up there with it's Dubya getting revenge for Hussein making his father look like a jackass. IF (and I say big IF) it has anything to do with oil, it has to do with the accumulation of wealth. Money can get you a lot if you are a despot. I'd also like to respond to the Arafat issue. Sharon (and Dubya) are trying to make Arafat out to be inconsequential. If Arafat says he has nothing to do with suicide bombers (which I actually do not think he does) then his role in the Israel-Palestinian question is irrelevant. If he DOES have something to do with it, then it justifies Israel's incursions into the West Bank. Additionally, Sharon needs an Arafat because without a Palestinian state, Israel is able to hedge their own position better. Sharon is not going to destabilize the region by A) giving into the demands of terrorists (see England and the IRA) or B) force Israel into a secondary position by getting in bed with Arabs. Not to mention that whole religious clap-trap nonsense... I am NOT in agreement with the way Dubya is handling Iraq because of Ted's point about it being precedent setting. That's why we don't assassinate people any more too. It sends the message that sovereignty is irrelevant. He IS, however, doing the right thing by laying back (which surprises me quite frankly) because his big talk is, as we speak, changing the face of NATO. Is France weak? Yes. But you DAMN sure need them on your side. This is the 4th largest economy in the world we are talking about. Granted, they may not be there without the US's synergy, but I for one am sick of corporations running geopolitics. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cut the head off and the body will die. bin Laden should be public enemy # 1, NOT Saddam Hussein. He is TOO smart to do things "out in the open" anymore. He is dangerous because he can USE Al Quaeda. Get rid of them, and you have less of a problem. Hussein is small potatoes in my estimation... |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 13th, 2003, 1:40pm Brian, To claim that it has nothing to do with oil is ignorant. Like it or not, this entire world is fueled by oil. We need to address this, of course, but the fact is we rely on Iraqi oil more than anybody will admit to themselves. Here in California, 28% of our DAILY oil supply comes directly from Iraq. Saddam has shown his feelings toward the west, and I'm sure he enjoys our money, but he would much rather see our economy in ruins and our 'civilization' punished for the objectional and disgusting afront that we represent to the Muslim world. We ONLY care about this because of his demonstrated desire to control far more than he does now. There are many examples of 'bad' leaders but we only focus on Saddam... why? It's about oil my friend. Without the oil, he has no vast supply of money to fund his mission to destroy us. I do not mean to imply that he is the only leader hell-bent on destroying the US. He just happens to show more capability to carry out those threats. This would not be possible without oil. It's all about oil. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Ted on Feb 13th, 2003, 2:07pm Ted also said " Also, a preemptive war without an iminent threat is a dangerous precedent for the world. India or Pakistan can both now follow the precedent and start a nuclear war when one invades the other for some ellusive "preemptive" reason. Or, as we've seen North Korea say, if ew build up our fleet further in the Korean Penninsula, he may launch a "preemptive" strike against us. Bush is letting that precedent be made and it's going to bite us and the rest of the world right on the ass. i agree completely! BUT - if it were your loved ones killed in the next attack by terrorists, and you knew that the terrorist were getting their stuff from Iraq.. would you be givin a shit? I also said "I have yet to see any proof linking Iraq and al-Qaeda...if there is a real link with Iraq and al Qaeda, we should be going into Iraq right now. ted also said I have yet to ese any proof linking Iraq and al-Qaeda. What Powell provided was that there are there members in Iraq. Well, there's members here in the US too. What he said was that Iraq is HARBORING them knowingly, and lying about their presence. We do not harbor them. That's the difference. But saying it and proving it when you have center stage are two different things. Nonetheless, he's probably right. SO have Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Do we go to war with them over this next or take out those few who are being harbored. In Pakistan it's more than a few so that would be more difficult, I'd imagine. Believing people should go into exile because they have a different view than their govt's is NOT showing respect for freedom. i agree.. IF that govt did not engage in inhumane treatment of their people - frequently, and makes it common practice. and IF that govt did not starve their people, and IF that govt did not strive to gain access to weapons of mass destruction to use against theirs or others. To me, that is different. There is such a thing as righteous indignation. Nothing like being taken out of context. LOL. You do know when you copied and pasted that that we were talking about the exiling of Americans from America for not agreeing with the gov't. Saddam Hussein's oldest son, Odai Hussein heads Iraq's Olympic Association and tortures athletes for poor performance, or losing a competition. There is a special room at the training facility specifically set up for "punishment". There's shock and torture equipment in there. (all of this is proven..) And that's just for the Olympic atheletes. The international Olympic committee is "investigating" this, but who knows what that will do for them!! There are a lot of evil dictators out there. There are a lot of murderous, torturous leaders out there. I'd love to see them all drop dead. But I don't want to go to war with all the countries out there that have pure evil running their country. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 13th, 2003, 2:14pm fubar, I think we are on the same page; however, if (IF IF IF) it's about oil, it's about what oil can BUY you. Hussein himself admitted pretty much that Kuwait was a stepping stone to Saudi Arabia. That's my point too. You wanna keep that region stable. Keep the Saudis in check. And if REALLY was about oil, why don't we just BUY it from Hussein? Our money spends as well as anyone else'.... And I think (and I need some back up here) we only get 10% of our oil from the middle east. The reason we are seeing high princes at the pump right now if cuz of Venuzuela (did I spell that right?) B |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by fubar on Feb 13th, 2003, 4:15pm Brian, You hit the nail on the head when you said "You wanna keep that region stable". Why is that? Oil. Nothing more, nothing less. If there was no oil there, this would all be very simple. Now, with that goal in mind (stability) how can you not see the need to eliminate this murderous bastard who will take every opportunity to lie, cheat, deceive and cajole the world until he has enough power/money/weapons to complete his vision of how it ought to be? He has shown, overtly, covertly and contemptuously (sorry, but the word fits better than any other) that he will not change his ways. What is the fucking problem with people that they can't see what is going on? He *is* an imminent threat, because he WILL strike when he is able. He may do it via proxy, but rest assured he will do it. Hang the bastard. -Fu (I'm done ranting... sorry) |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 13th, 2003, 4:46pm The cable “news” channels are bizarre this afternoon. They’re all showing people running around wrapping houses in duct tape and plastic. The terrorist threat crap is a pretty handy diversion for Bush. Don’t tell me this isn’t partly to keep us busy and to not pay too close attention. Then, that horrible excuse for a human being, Tom Delay, wants us to boycott French products. Great. Idiocy at this level is rare but not from Delay. Send back the duct tape which is made by a German firm, French wine, German cars, the Statue of Liberty, and everything we import from China, which is fence sitting as well. This is the kind of shit we get from Washington. There are serious things to worry about kids, but don‘t count on DC. The war is going to happen. You don’t drop 200,000 people in an area for nothing. Probably the only reason it hasn’t as yet, is that all our materiel isn’t in place. It takes months to drag our military industrial complex around--and then they like fighting in the dark and the next new moon is around the 1st of March or so. Fine, but once we get there, we have to set up a democracy among three tribes of people who hate each other. What fun that’s going be. This will take months or years, not weeks. Maybe there is a reason but it would be nice to know it. Shit, we tell Saddam to get ready, how about telling us a little something? That Bush doesn’t, it what pisses me off. The U. S. imports something less than 20% of its oil from the Middle East. Not that that is insignificant but Canada is our biggest single supplier and Venezuela is right up there. This war isn’t all about oil. George Bush & Co. are taking advantage of 9-11. All governments do this kind of thing. It’s sad to give a horror like John Ashcroft, something to use, however. You won’t find me at peace rallies, hating the military or running down the country. It’s the jerk in the White House whom we didn’t elect as President, that scares me. Dump Saddam, but I hope we know what we’re doing when we drop bombs in the Tigris and Euphrates basin, which was called the Fertile Crescent and the cradle of civilization. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 13th, 2003, 5:28pm Clark just shows to go ya how conscientious Swedes can be :D 8) He has my thanks too. Good for him and that women that posts here now and then......... :D She has to put up with cross border politics. FUN :D From the military men and women I've met, I find 99% of them to be the nicest and most caring people, I've encountered. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by catlind on Feb 13th, 2003, 5:30pm Jonny, You know not how much that means to me and Clark. I don't believe anyone but a service member and their family can understand how much that means. Veitnam vets are the ones who understand the most. Who thanked them? I for one, and Clark, thank every vet we see. They did the job they were told to do, and suffered as much pain and attrocities if not more, when they came home. Thank you everyone, all citizens all people all nations all service members for the freedom loving nations in the world. But for me, I will always hold a very special thank you to all veterans of Vietnam war. Cat |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by tommyD on Feb 13th, 2003, 6:11pm We went into Iraq before to defend one corrupt dictatorship against another. We won all the battles and lost the war. When it was over, Saddam had a tighter grip on his country than before, and he went on committing genocide. And Kuwait was/is still a dictatorship. Now we will attack Iraq again. I predict we will again win all the battles. But then what? In order to effect "regime change" we will have to occupy Iraq. Regime change does not just mean "kill Saddam," because it is likely the character of Iraq's government will not change without removing all of Saddam's loyalists, as well as those of his enemies who think the same way he does. I saw a story recently on an exiled Iraqi leader who can't wait to see Saddam removed so he can set up shop. This fellow is an Islamic fundamentalist with the title Ayahtolla. Sound familiar? And in order to establish freedom and democracy in Iraq, we then will have to rebuild its economy. It will take massive amounts of aid, though we could always trade for oil. We have won, and are winning, all the battles in Afghanistan. But already we are failing to rebuild that country, and some of the Afghanis there are wondering if the Taliban was such a bad bunch after all - at least you could join up and get a pair of boots. Then, we will likely have to DEFEND Iraq against Islamic fundamentalists, who will NOT want to see Iraq allied with the west and structured as a democracy. And this will be a guerilla war with terrorist tactics. Have we thought this through? When would it end? Will we have more enemies or fewer? Will there be more suffering or less? Will there be more freedom in the world or less? All the good intentions and patriotic fervor don't mean a lot to me. I want real and lasting improvements in the human condition. Is this the way to do it? Now Powell is claiming Saddam supports Osama and the tape on TV seems to say Osama supports Saddam. But this was never the case until this year. Those two hate each other. Always have. And it's not personal, but philosophical. What support they give each other is happing only because they now have a common enemy. And if you watch the news carefully enough, you'll see there is another tape of Osama, and in tis one he is calling for Islamic fundies to overthrow Saddam. With a little subtlety, a nudge here, a hint there, we could have had Osama and Saddam destroying each other. But Bush's foreign policy has all the subtlty of a beer fart, and all the utility of bull tits. I recommend y'all study the Art of War by Sun Tzu, and the philosophical work it was inspired by, the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu. But I doubt it would do much good, because I don't think the Shrub is interested in lasting improvements to the human condition. He is interested in winning the 2004 elections, and he did learn a little from his old man. He learned not to end a war until the election is over. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by jonny on Feb 13th, 2003, 6:46pm I have never removed any post of mine but i just removed all of them from this thread. All I wanted was to say thanks to the people protecting us and I get this bullshit debate. Wanna debate?.......go to who gives a fuck.com I dont! .........................jonny |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by tommyD on Feb 13th, 2003, 7:36pm As it happens, just checked my e-mail and found this forwarded to me. -tommyD Report from Iraq By Charlie Clements I am a public health physician and a human rights advocate. I have just returned from a 10-day emergency mission to Iraq with other public health experts to assess the vulnerability of the civilian population to another war. I'm also a distinguished graduate of the USAF Academy and a Vietnam veteran, so I have some sense of the potential consequences of the air war we are about to unleash on Iraq as a prelude to the introduction of American troops. The population of Iraq has been reduced to the status of refugees. Nearly 60 percent of Iraqis, or almost 14 million people, depend entirely on a government-provided food ration that, by international standards, represents the minimum for human sustenance. Unemployment is greater than 50 percent, and the majority of those who are employed make between $4 and $8 a month. (The latter figure is the salary of a physician that works in a primary health center.) Most families are without economic resources, having sold off their possessions over the last decade to get by. Hospital wards are filled with severely malnourished children, and much of the population has a marginal nutritional status. While visiting a children's hospital, we were told about newly emerging diseases that had previously been controlled when pesticides were available. (Current sanctions prohibit their importation.) Later I saw a mother who had traveled 200 km with her young daughter, who suffered from leschmaniais, or "kala azar" as it is known there. She came to the hospital because she heard it had a supply of Pentostam, the medicine needed to treat the disease. The pediatrician told her there was none. Then he turned to me and, in English, said, "It would be kinder to shoot her here rather than let her go home and die the lingering death that awaits her". Our interpreter, by instinct, translated the doctor's comments into Arabic for the mother, whose eyes instantly overflowed with tears. The food distribution program funded by the U.N., Oil-for-Food, is the world's largest and is heavily dependent upon the transportation system, which will be one of the first targets of the war, as the U.S. will attempt to sever transport routes to prevent Iraqi troop movements and interrupt military supplies. Yet even before the transportation system is hit, U.S. aircraft will spread millions of graphite filaments in wind-dispersed munitions that will cause a complete paralysis of the nation's electrical grids. Already literally held together with bailing wire because the country has been unable to obtain spare parts due to sanctions, the poorly functioning electrical system is essential to the public health infrastructure. The water treatment system, too, has been a victim of sanctions. Unable to import chlorine and aluminum sulfate (alum) to purify water, Iraq has already seen a 1000% increase in the incidence of some waterborne diseases. Typhoid cases, for instance, have increased from 2,200 in 1990 to more than 27,000 in 1999. In the aftermath of an air assault, Iraqis will not have potable water in their homes, and they will not have water to flush their toilets. The sanitation system, which frequently backs up sewage ankle deep in Baghdad neighborhoods when the ailing pumps fail, will stop working entirely in the aftermath of the air attack. There will be epidemics as water treatment and water pumping will come to a halt. Even though it is against the Geneva Conventions to target infrastructure elements that primarily serve civilians, this prohibition did not give us pause in Gulf War I -- and, based upon current Bush administration threats, will not this time. Pregnant women, malnourished children, and the elderly will be the first to succumb. UNICEF estimates that 500,000 more children died in Iraq in the decade following the Gulf War than died in the previous decade. These children are part of the "collateral damage" from the last war. cont.... |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by tommyD on Feb 13th, 2003, 7:38pm More from Charlie Clements: How many civilians will die in the next war? That is hard to say. One estimate for the last Gulf War was that 10,000 perished, mostly during the bombing campaign that led up to the invasion. That figure will surely climb because our government has promised that a cruise missile will strike Iraq every five minutes for the first 48 hours the war. These missiles will seek out military, intelligence, and security-force targets around highly populated areas like Baghdad, Basra, and Mosul, Iraq's largest cities, where "collateral damage" is unavoidable. Unable to meet the acute medical needs of the country's population now, the health care system of Iraq will be overwhelmed by such an assault. This scenario is conservative. I have not taken into account any use of weapons of mass destruction, or the possibility that the war will set loose massive civil disorder and bloodshed, as various groups within the country battle for power or revenge. I have also ignored what would happen if we became bogged down in house-to-house fighting in Baghdad, which could easily become another Mogidishu or Jenin. There was a lot that made me angry on that trip. I have worked in war zones before and I have been with civilians as they were bombed by U.S.-supplied aircraft, but I don't think I've experienced anything on the magnitude of the catastrophe that awaits our attack in Iraq. Still, as deeply troubling as this looming human disaster is, another issue troubles me far more. If the U.S. pursues this war without the backing of the U.N. Security Council, it will undermine a half-century of efforts by the world community to establish a foundation of humanitarian and human rights law. Such an act on our part would also violate the U.N. Charter and make a mockery of the very institution we have helped to fashion in the hopes it would help prevent crimes against humanity. Many might define the consequences of such an attack on the population of Iraq as just that. Saddam is a monster, there is no doubt about that. He needs to be contained. Yet many former U.N. weapons inspectors feel he has been "defanged". His neighbors do not fear him any longer. There are many Iraqis who want him removed, but not by a war. Against the short-term gain of removing Saddam, we must take into account that idea that we may well unleash forces of hatred and resentment that will haunt us for decades to come in every corner of the world. I can just hear Osama Bin Laden saying now, "Please President Bush, attack Iraq. There's nothing better you could do to help the cause of Al Qaeda!" |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Jarvis on Feb 13th, 2003, 10:45pm A note on the issue of is it oil... French German and Russian companies are holding millions if not billions of dollars in contracts regarding the oil in Iraq. Why would they not want to maintain these huge economic assets and delay the wars. The likliehood of losing the contracts is huge. This is the reason they are not joining with the anti Sadaam coalition.. When U.S. companies had those contracts then Sadaam was an allright guy. . There is no corner Sadaam gas stations here. ................... Beyond that its just politics. Ugly f@#n politics at that. |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Charlie on Feb 13th, 2003, 11:28pm Interesting, sad and scary. So your saying that Saddam and bin Laden don't necessary have each other on speed dial? (I really wish that one were mine) My fear is that if we don't get him, he'll be on lots for wacko speed dials Charlie |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by Brian_Y on Feb 14th, 2003, 1:10pm http://borowitzreport.com/ It's NOT about oil after all. The military industrial complex coming to a theatre near you!!!! |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by KingOfPain on Feb 17th, 2003, 6:33am jonny, Thanks for the thread. My replies were for thanks, support, agreement, & (2nd one partly) clarification. I apologise if my replies were taken/understood for other reasons than stated above. KingOfPain |
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Title: Re: Hmmmmm!!! Post by jonny on Feb 17th, 2003, 11:57am Dont sweat it Bro, I knew there was a good chance the thread would turn that way I was just hopeing it wouldnt. Life goes on ;D ................jonny |
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