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        New Message Board Archives >> 2002 Posts >> Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
        
(Message started by: Charlie on Sep 11^th, 2002, 6:33am)

Title: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Charlie on Sep 11^th, 2002, 6:33am

Yes, we must kill the murderers of 9/11, but without becoming murderers and without simply indulging ourselves. We must defend ourselves — without throwing out civil liberties at home, without barring every Muslim student from this country, without forgetting what a huge shadow a powerful America casts over the world and how it can leave people feeling powerless, and without telling the world we're going to do whatever we want because there has been a flood and now all bets are off.

Because imposing norms and rules on ourselves gives us the credibility to demand them from others. It gives us the credibility to demand the rule of law, religious tolerance, consensual government, self-criticism, pluralism, women's rights and respect for the notion that my grievance, however deep, does not entitle me to do anything to anyone anywhere.

It gives us the credibility to say to the Muslim world: Where have you been since 9/11? Where are your voices of reason? You humbly open all your prayers in the name of a God of mercy and compassion. But when members of your faith, acting in the name of Islam, murdered Americans or committed suicide against "infidels," your press extolled them as martyrs and your spiritual leaders were largely silent. Other than a few ritual condemnations, they offered no outcry in their mosques; they drew no new moral red lines in their schools. That's a problem, because if there isn't a struggle within Islam — over norms and values — there is going to be a struggle between Islam and us.

In short, numbing ourselves to the post-9/11 realities will not work. Military operations, while necessary, are not sufficient. Building higher walls may feel comforting, but in today's interconnected world they're an illusion. Our only hope is that people will be restrained by internal walls — norms and values. Visibly imposing them on ourselves, and loudly demanding them from others, is the only viable survival strategy for our shrinking planet.

Charlie

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Bob P on Sep 11^th, 2002, 9:14am

Civil Liberties - Tel Aviv airport is one of the safest in the world. Why? Because they profile with great predujice!

Gotta ask yourself the question, which do you want more, civil liberties or no more 9/11's?

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by oringkid on Sep 11^th, 2002, 10:48am

As long as there are human beings on this planet, we will be killing each other. In the name of God, in the name of peace, in the name of freedom, because of love, because of hate, because of pain, just because...
It is in our nature. Our civility and morality is but a thin veneer over our primitive anima1istic nature.
Is it in us as a device to control overpopulation? Or just a terrible and inevitablely terminal flaw?

My moment in silence today is spent pondering the terrible beauty and potential of the human race and the devastating sadness of its eventual self destruction.

Sherry

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Drk^Angel on Sep 11^th, 2002, 11:08am

If we could only stop all future 9/11-like events if we give up our freedoms... But if we give up the freedom that this country was founded on, wouldn't the terrorist win? Even if we did give up our civil liberties, we'd still be at risk of attack.

PFDAN............................ Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by 2late on Sep 11^th, 2002, 5:19pm

racial profiling need's to happen now!!! we know what the enemy look's like (for the most part- middle-eastern)but we're afraid of the a.c.l.u. & how we'll piss off other countries. the hell with them, racial profiling will greatly reduce our chance of being attacked. ...............2late

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Charlie on Sep 11^th, 2002, 6:00pm

I have a suspicion you people are reading Freidman differently than I. I read this guy all the time and when it comes to these towelheads and other terrorists, he has zero sympathy. He's tough on these bastards for what they've done to even their own people. From what I read, he has no problem with profiling and neither do I.

These schitheads don't understand just how dumb this thing was. They're learning now just how dangerous being too successful can be (can't say schitheads here?) WTF?

Fuck 'em

Sweet old Charlie

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Drk^Angel on Sep 11^th, 2002, 6:11pm

Y'all that's so hyped about racial profiling, and racism for the good of America and all that BS... Ya are forgetting that Oklahoma City was committed by a mid-western, redheaded whiteboy? Who are to say what races are good, and was races are bad? If you were to ban every race that has committed terrorism, there'd hardly be anyone left in this country.

PFDAN.............................. Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by 2late on Sep 11^th, 2002, 7:53pm

Drk, as i said in my post for the most part middle-eastern. i'm not saying it will eliminate attack only reduce it,& isin't that worth it? ..............2late

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Charlie on Sep 11^th, 2002, 8:03pm

Get real kids. Profiling has been around since the dawn of man. That we discuss it says a lot about how this country operates. Going after the Achmeds of the world makes more sense than patting down Granny.

It's ethnic more than racial now. Everyone gets his turn.

Really careful old Charlie

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Bob P on Sep 11^th, 2002, 9:05pm

Profiling doesn't mean banning someone. It just means that look extra hard at the ones who fit the profile.

Police departments use professional profilers to identify likely perps all the time.

If we have to give up the privilage of walking to the plane without being searched, then so be it!

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Drk^Angel on Sep 12^th, 2002, 2:44am

Investigative profiling isn't the same as racial profiling. And just because it's always been around forever doesn't mean it's right. Just think about this... This country was founded on certain freedoms. These freedoms should be natural freedoms granted to all men, but that isn't necessarily true. It wasn't true for the countries that this country fought to gain it's independance. It wasn't true for many of the countries that this country fought wars against since gaining our independance. It wasn't true for many of the countries that immigrants to this country came from. These freedoms are what make this country so great, and what these terrorists are trying to do away with. If we okay racism to weed out terrorism today... Tomorrow we'll go back to racism to fight drugs, prevent violence, stop crimes, to stop alternative view points, and finally stop free will. Allowed to go unchecked, we could very well become what we have fought so many wars to prevent. I don't like the idea that people could be unfairly singled out purely on the basis of their skin colour, or their name, or what god they pray to. I see so many ppl running around goin' on about the "ragheads". It makes me sad that we are at a point that it is acceptable to use such a derogatory word. I wonder how many of you who use this word on a regular basis would find the word "n-i-g-g-e-r" just as acceptable. Racism is racism... Pure and simple. Racism is bred from ignorance and hate... Two things I'd rather not be labelled with. You can do as you wish, but I will not be apart of it, I will not support it, and I'd hope that the American ppl would not be willing to be ruled by a government that would support it.

PFDAN............................ Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Charlie on Sep 12^th, 2002, 5:42am

I agree with your sentiments. I also agree that my use of "towelheads" is nasty shorthand. I can stop that.

The sad thing is that I'll have a hard time getting over looking twice at these people. Is it all my fault? I really don't know.

Charlie

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by oringkid on Sep 12^th, 2002, 8:07am

Here, here! Drk!

I agree!

Sherry

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Ted on Sep 12^th, 2002, 8:27am

I go back and forth on this issue of racial profiling in fighting terrorism. Unlike "the war on drugs," both sides have good points, some of which have been brought up here. But Drk, you need to define at least one of your terms. You said you're not talking about "investigative profiling." Racial profiling is selecting individuals to investigate because of their racial background. By default "investigative profiling" would be selecting individuals to investigate because they're being investigated. But since no one mentioned that I don't think that's what you meant. What do you mean?
And for what it's worth, I agree that this country and this board is becoming more bigoted and accepting of bigotry towards anyone falling under the category of "ragheads."

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by TomM on Sep 12^th, 2002, 8:45am

Ted--I don't think our country has become more bigoted just because someone used the term 'raghead'. I think our country, at least in my circle of freinds, is tired of the PC way to deal with issues. I'm sorry, the 60's are over and the Love & Peace movement has given us a generation of people who 'expect' things to be given to them and demand 'rights'.
When I taught high school a few years back, I informed my students they left thier 'rights' at the threshold to my classroom, they WILL stand for the pledge, and WILL be quite if they decide not to partake.
We earned each others respect and everyone's right were derived from that respect.
IMHO, PC is BS.
--TomM--

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Ted on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:00am

Tom -- I wouldn't think our country has become more bigoted either if someone used the term "raghead." One person using it isn't something you can base a trend on. It's the masses using it more and more that I'm talking about.
I'm sorry to hear that about your circle of friends but the 50s are over. The era of anything non-bigoted is PC, and lynchings and allowing "vigalantes" to mete out their own "justice" against anyone of a certain race because all they had as evidence of a crime (or even forgetting to call someone "suh") was the person's race should have died with it. I don't see how you equate someone saying it's wrong to use derogatory terms against everyone of a certain race as the same as "people who 'expect' things to be given to them and demand 'rights'."
Also, I think most teachers do what you do. I mean have that rule of "you'll either take part in what we're doing in the classroom or allow the others to without you acting up and being disruptive."
See, for me people should be treated with respect from the start. And earn the disrespect. Not the other way around. But then again, you know us commie-hippies. Would you like a flower?

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by TomM on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:19am

Actually, Ted, I think we are on the same page. One major reason you hear derogatory terms in the first place is when someone is angry. Many of us (all, perhaps?) were angry >:( about the attack on our nation, freedom, and way of life.
So maybe those terms are vocallized more today than a 367 days ago. Not an excuse; just a rationale. ???
I'll take your flower and I love S.F. but I won't wear it in my hair! ;)
BTW--I was born in '62. Now you know I'm only middle aged!
--TomM--

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by echo on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:19am

My 2 cents on profiling.
Done correctly it has the degree of accuracy to give law enforcement the headups they need to stop potential acts of aggression prior to happening.
Done incorrectly it becomes a waste of time and does nothing to stop acts of violence.
Case in point - during a recent trip I was randomly searched at the security check point - ramdom search at the gate, another random search at the connecting flight. Searched again twice on the return trip. Why was I picked -- I carried a laptop and nothing else. I was easy, white, late 40's. One on occasion there were mid easteners in front and behind me. Guess the guards were afraid of offending them. Hey -- you fit the profile, you get searched. Don't like it. Go back to your own country. I think they would prefer to be seached to remain in a country such as this. Life for them has got to be better here.

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by TomM on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:33am

I've flown many times since last September and I've had the priviledge of getting my shoes searched EVERY time I fly; at security check-in, at the gate, where ever. I'm white, 40, and male. Search me all you want as long as it makes our travel safer!
--TomM--

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Ted on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:46am

Tom, you're 3 years older than I so cut the shit with the middle-aged talk. :-)
Last time I flew I was searched, including my shoes too. That was probably because I was flying standby. Nothing wrong with that kind of profiling. And I'm still not sure if there is anything wrong with racial profiling in certain situations, if it's done right as Echo said.

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by echo on Sep 12^th, 2002, 10:42am

Agree. Search me if it makes travel safer for all. When they get to the cavity search I'll probably draw the line. Depending on the individual. :o

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Drk^Angel on Sep 12^th, 2002, 10:59am

Ted... I was talking about the use of professional profilers to determine a possible profile of a subject for a crime given the circumstances of the crime. You know, where they'll say that a serial killer is possibly a white male, 25 - 35 years old, 150 - 230 pounds. This information is compiled from statistical information compared with the MO of the crime to obtain the most likely profile statistically for that particular crime. But they don't take that profile, and search everyone with that profile. BobP mentioned them, and that's what that line of my last post was about.

PFDAN................................. Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by oringkid on Sep 12^th, 2002, 11:22am

What I have against the idea of racial profiling is what the common man will do when he hears that the government is saying this is ok. Right after 9/11 there were many incidences of perfectly innocent people who happened to look middle eastern being beaten and/or having their property destroyed. ONLY because they looked middle eastern. That is WRONG. But there are many in our country who would see a go on racial profiling as a go on blind vigilanteism (sp?).

I also feel that random searches are basically just doing lip service. If you are going to search, search everyone.

(course I can say that since I haven't flown since 9/11 and probably won't. I know it would cause horrible delays, but if you are not going to be thorough, why go through the motions?)

Sherry

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by jonny on Sep 12^th, 2002, 11:29am

8 flights in the last 14 months and not once did they single me out for a random search, they pulled what look to be a 80 yr old woman out of line that was in front me for a search one time. WTF is up with that shit?

................jonny

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Ted on Sep 12^th, 2002, 11:38am

OK Drk. Yeah. That's really the only way it should be done. With people who do know what an actual profile is and not just the one quality. That's how Israel does it. They don't look at only the factor of race (most of El Al's passengers have that Mideast look, afterall) but are they male, sweating on a cool day, etc...

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Drk^Angel on Sep 12^th, 2002, 11:51am

Well said kid!

PFDAN....................... Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by echo on Sep 12^th, 2002, 12:30pm

Jonny, you may have been behind my mother. She is "randomly" searched every time she flys. 5'2" white haired soft spoken great grandma type.
Now you on the otherhand probably scare the crap out of the $5.00 ph guards.

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by paul_b on Sep 12^th, 2002, 1:17pm

This thread started with Freidman's comments about norms and values. Lest we forget that OUR norms and values are only ours and at times like these they come into conflict with others, especially when the OTHERS, assert themselves. We may believe that our norms and values are more "noble/superior" to others, but I contend that norms and values evolve over time and circumstances. When other people's have a grievance, if not addressed over time, an explosion will occur. Too bad humans have no natural tolerance and acceptance gene. It would be heaven if we all could live in harmony. Yet, this is not a state of being that can be imposed---it evolves form within. God bless thoughs who posses it.

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by TomM on Sep 12^th, 2002, 4:28pm

Sweating on a cool day??? Shit--I sweat in the middle of winter.

And WTF is up with jonny NOT getting searched?? I ax you? ???

--TomM--

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by jonny on Sep 12^th, 2002, 4:45pm

Thats what im saying, Tom.....would you random search me or an 80 yr old lady?

Dont matter to me im the sky marshall on my flight!!!!

........................jonny

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by TomM on Sep 12^th, 2002, 4:55pm

jonny--I pray to have guys like you on my flight.

Before Sept 11, when da spousal unit and I would fly on vacation, I always looked around to find 'my allies' and now I pray to have people like those from Flight 93.

You and me jonny, we'd die trying!

I may look like Mr. Conservative, but my Irish temper is nasty.

--TomM--

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by BobG on Sep 12^th, 2002, 5:01pm

Ragheads, towelheads, camel jockeys...........

I use the terms all the time, usually prefaced with fuckin'.
It has nothing to do with their race.

It's what they are.

If they don't want to be called a raghead then they should take those stupid rags off their heads.

The ugly bastards should also shave those scraggly beards off. They look like goats.

If they don't like being called camel jockeys then they can come to my house and we'll talk it over. I'm in the phone book, they can find me.

And one more thing while we're on the subject of being politically correct.......

Not to long ago I was told I should not use one of those terms because it wasn't PC. But then someone else used the word "nazi" and only one person spoke up.

To me the word nazi is one of the most horrible words the world has ever known.

It ain't racial profiling if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and wears a turbin.

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by Charlie on Sep 12^th, 2002, 5:10pm

Thanks Paul for the reminder.

Thanks for reminding me of the reason for this thread. Friedman is the New York Times Middle East guy who thinks that too many of these people are victims of the success of extremists. They are exposed to very little moderate teaching, some very nasty leaders who find this kind of thing handy to keep things quiet, poverty, and the long shadow of the West. No one likes the rich fat cat, especially when the difference is so great.

They hate us for the effect we have on their culture but the mistake they make is believing that we’re nothing but secular monsters with no values. They couldn’t be more wrong. They don’t realize it’s our acceptance of so many points of view, faiths, and our treatment of women that we got that way. Our values are well defined.

The thing is; it’s not us who wouldn’t let more than a dozen Saudi school girls escape in a fire and die because they weren’t following the dress code. Because we’re villainous infidels, we don’t understand of course.

I don’t blame all Muslims, but they have to meet me somewhere. It doesn’t even have to be half way. I don’t like profiling any more than the rest but it’s nothing new and will go on. I hadn’t thought much about the different forms of profiling. That’s interesting. Let’s not go nuts and oh.....and I want my nail clipper on the plane.

Windy old Charlie

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by jonny on Sep 12^th, 2002, 5:10pm

LMAO, Bob.

You forgot "Sandbrotha"

From what I hear its PC if you use an "A" insted of an "ER"

What a fucking joke!!!!!!

..................jonny

Title: Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
Post by paul_b on Sep 12^th, 2002, 9:56pm

You have the right to be offensive and I have the sensitivity to be offended.