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        New Message Board Archives >> 2002 Posts >> Ok, far fetched idea here....
        
(Message started by: catlind on Aug 18^th, 2002, 11:42am)

Title: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by catlind on Aug 18^th, 2002, 11:42am

I know alot of the folks on the board are vets. I know there are many others that serve active duty now. I know the location I grew up in - Sombra Ontario, was right down river from Dow Chemicals.

Now comes the Far Fetched idea, Dow in SArnia was one of the companies that produced Agent Orange.
Do you suppose there could be any link to chemical agent exposure and CH's?

Cat

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by jonny on Aug 18^th, 2002, 12:36pm

Not unless that shit flowed through out the world.

We got green shit in Boston but no orange.......LOL

......................jonny

Oh, BTW.....That green shit is money and its going in a hole called "The big dig" no matter where you live your money is going in that hole.

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by sailpappy on Aug 18^th, 2002, 12:44pm

;D ;D Not to be contrary to my friend Jonny,
I will dig it out, I got a letter from the V.A. stating imphaticly that they had linked several of my health problems, including my headache syndrome to my excessive exposure to agent orange.
Like I said I have it filed away but I will pull it out and scan it and post it for you al to see as soon as I locate it, it was at least 10 years ago so I have a lot of digging to do. I have approximently 30 2inch 3 ring binders full of documentation from the V.A. and several from headache clinics and private doctors I have seen! be patient and I'll get to it! Pappy
http://www.gifs.net/animate/sungulls.gif
http://www.gifs.net/animate/sailboat.gif

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Svenn on Aug 18^th, 2002, 12:53pm

Sorry Cat
Cant see any conection there
The first written case of cluster was back in 1300 or something.First real diagnose was in the US back in 1940-55 somewhere.
Think that was a long time before US started with "agent orange"

Guess

i had a simular idea over here in Norway.Had contact with 19 clusterheads here that got their first symphtoms in the late 80s

My idea was that could this be something from the "downfallarea"from the Tjernobyl-dicaster back in 1986.

Of course there was no hold in that.
That is what i also think of your idea.
Sorry Cat,but thats it

Your friend Svenn

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Melissa on Aug 18^th, 2002, 12:57pm

I look at it the same way I view a few other diseases...
I think that it lies dormant in our systems, it just takes a certain trigger to make the disease apparent. Some may never experience clusters, because they have not come across that one certain thing that triggers it for them. I don't think there is an exact pinpoint cause, especially since our locations, exposure, habits and diet are different.

Just my opinion.... :)

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by catlind on Aug 18^th, 2002, 1:02pm

Like I said, far fetched, but just thought it might have been the trigger for some. Svenn, never apologize for giving information *bonk on head* Info is what gives us power and means to look for the answers :)

Cat

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Donna on Aug 18^th, 2002, 1:19pm

Tuesday, June 29, 1999 Published at 11:20 GMT 12:20 UK

Health

Headache's secrets revealed

Scientists have linked brain structure to brain function

A certain type of headache may be caused by structural
abnormalities in the brain, researchers have discovered.

The finding could revolutionise
approaches to all primary headaches,
which had not been thought to be
caused by factors in the physical
structure of the brain.

But using a new scanning technique,
doctors have established that cluster headaches are
likely to be caused by excessive growth of grey cells in
one part of the brain.

It is the section that governs the body clock, which could
be responsible for the regularity of the headaches'
appearances.

Male condition

Cluster headaches are characterised by a sudden
excruciating pain on one side of the head around the
eyes, temple or cheek, and can last for 15 minutes to 3
hours.

Affecting 0.1% of the population - mainly men - they
recur over a period of weeks or months before
disappearing, hence their name.

Professor Peter Goadsby, of
the headache research unit
at London's Institute of
Neurology, published his
team's discovery in the
journal Nature Medicine.

He told BBC News Online
that the finding revolutionised
scientists' perception of
headaches.

"It's like the first time
somebody said the earth was
round - you have to step back and reconsider," he said.

This was because whereas with secondary headaches -
where there was a known structural cause such as a
brain tumour or bleeding - primary headaches had been
thought to be caused by chemical factors alone.

"The dogma is that primary headache, like cluster
headaches and migraine, are due to abnormal brain
function with completely normal brain structure.

"Our study shows this is simply not the case," he said.

Revolutionary discovery

In the past, high-resolution brain scans have shown no
abnormalities in the brain structure of cluster headache
sufferers.

But using the latest imaging techniques, Professor
Goadsby and colleagues found an increase of grey
matter in an area of the brain known as the
hypothalamus on the side where the headache occurs.

Whereas standard high resolution scans take a picture
of the brain that doctors can examine, the new technique
takes pictures of many brains.

A computer then analyses the pictures down to the
finest detail, making extremely subtle differences
apparent.

Because the differences were seen both when the
patients were studied while they had a headache and
also in a headache-free state, changes are likely to be
permanent.

Professor Goadsby said:
"We also found that the area
of the brain where these
structural abnormalities were
seen, the hypothalamus, is
the same area of the brain
where functional studies
show that activity is
abnormal during the
headache state.

"This complete correlation of
functional and structural
abnormality is striking."

The hypothalamus is the part of the brain associated
with circadian rhythms - the 24 hour rhythm of the
human body.

"Our results demonstrate for the first time the precise
location in the brain involved in cluster headaches and
help to explain why this condition shows such striking
seasonal variation and clock-like regularity," said
Professor Goadsby.

"The findings have profound implications for
understanding how the brain is affected in primary
headaches."

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by BobG on Aug 18^th, 2002, 6:56pm

As a cause, No. As a trigger, Yes.

We know that other chemicals will trigger an attack.

Alcohol, perfumes, fuels and many others have been mentioned on this board. So why not agent orange?

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Slammy on Aug 18^th, 2002, 7:45pm

on 08/18/02 at 11:42:14, catlind wrote:

Now comes the Far Fetched idea, Dow in SArnia was one of the companies that produced Agent Orange.
Do you suppose there could be any link to chemical agent exposure and CH's?

Cat

No.......jeezus Cat, now you are begging!

Slammy 8)

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Drk^Angel on Aug 18^th, 2002, 8:58pm

I think it'd be easier to link CH to pesticides than agent orange, but even that would be a stretch...

PFDAN..................... Drk^Angel

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by NancyMcFree on Aug 18^th, 2002, 9:26pm

Donna, thanks for the research you shared with us .... at least there is hope, whatever the cause.

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by sailpappy on Aug 18^th, 2002, 10:23pm

;D ;D I am not a research scientist, I can barely think clearly with all the confussion around me,much of it caused by me! LOL!
I do know that certain things are common to some herbacides and pestacides( organophoshates) they build up in little pockets of certain organs and never leave, the build in strength if exposure continues to a point where in many cases people have died, does this factor into the Clusterheadache syndrome? I don't know, I didn't have them before exposure, but I also didn't have them prior to severe Head Trauma either so does that factor into the syndrome?
Ueli, where are you My answerman, how about John Plewes, scientist extrordinaire and Fellow Naples Resident, Do you know about these issues, do you even read the board any longer? (In my best Eddie Murphy voice)
Somebody hepme Please! Pappy
http://www.gifs.net/animate/sungulls.gif
http://www.gifs.net/animate/sailboat.gif

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by firebrix on Aug 19^th, 2002, 2:26am

Kate Jenkins did a remarkably accurate study of the effects of dioxins on humans subsequent to the first claims from Vietnam Vets that their health had been affected.
It was part of an EPA report and occurred around the late eighties or early nineties. I have a copy here.
So contoversial was the information contained in her report, that after her house was suspiciously burned down and her first research lost, she was accompanied wherever she went by 10 ex Nam Vets until her research was complete and the report presented.

It is a large document. Dioxins and furans have a half life of approximately 27 years. This means that in 27 years, half the molecules will have degraded. It takes another 27 years to lose the next half etc. etc. These organochlorines are persistent and bio-accumulative (build up in fat cells in humans and animals) and are released when for example, a mother feeds her child. This was first noted in cetacean species. Male and juvenile whales had the highest levels; the mothers' levels had dropped when they fed their 600x-fattier- than- human milk to their calves.

The most noticeable effect of extreme dioxin exposure as occurred in wood process workers in NZ ( some sites had higher levels than Vietnam's worst) initially was a skin condition called chlor-acne. It looks a little like cowpox, but is persistent and refractory to treatment.
The other effects are too many to discuss here, but basically, sterility, gene damage, and health effects passed on through generations. Not all those exposed suffer health impacts.
The news in Kate Jenkins' report was all bad, actually.
The jury is out on dioxin, but substances containing it, or contaminated with it are gradually being eliminated.
I have never heard of OCls being associated with CH.
I wish you all PFDAN
firebrix

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by gills on Aug 19^th, 2002, 5:03am

Very far fetched. Maybe its half right and just oranges.
Gills

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Charlie on Aug 19^th, 2002, 6:05am

Everything surrounding causes for CH seems far-fetched. It's human nature to want, just about need, some definite thing on which to pin something so nasty. How much simpler it would be. Rats

My feeling is that CH is very very old. It may be as old as the species. I suspect CH is the manifestation of faulty wiring. I would like it to be a result of some of condiment or something else we could avoid but so far no dice. I'm sure there are things that aggravate or prolong this horror, but as for a cause, I'd be very surprised....pleased but surprised.

Everyone keep searching though we might run across something or a combination of things that works. We have to try.

PFDAN

Charlie

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by gtarman on Aug 19^th, 2002, 2:54pm

Amen to that, Charlie, amen to that.

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by firebrix on Aug 19^th, 2002, 3:03pm

Great post Donna! Thanx for taking the time to share the news. I'd read it, but many will not have found it.
Thanx to you all. ;D
You guys are the best
firebrix

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by tommyD on Aug 19^th, 2002, 3:10pm

Great report on dioxin, firebrix.
The organochlorides are a nasty group of chemicals, many of them highly and insidiously toxic... Agent Orange/dioxin is hardly the only one to affect humans. Other common exposures: pesticides (DDT the most famous, and its problems helped kick start the environmental movement, chlordane is a more recent example)
herbicides (Agent Orange),
insulating/cooling oil (in electrical transformers -- PCB's: polychlorinated biphenyls),
paint remover and furniture strippers (methylene chloride)
combustion of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) in structure fires, backyard burn barrels and waste incinerators (especially hospital incinerators) forms furans and a whole host of OCl's as yet unnamed, unknown and unstudied.

Time is the big problem with OCl's -- they last a long time in the environment (they are POPs - persistant organic pollutants) and they can show their effects long after the exposure: cancer, birth defects, disruption of the endochrine system...This makes it hard to prove any direct connection of health problems to exposure incidents.

But I never saw cluster headaches or severe headaches listed as a common symptom of OCl exposure.

We're really working backwards here. As in another recent thread about a connection between clusters heavy metals (also very toxic, insidious and persistant, by the way), it would be better to look at victims of the exposure and see how many have clusters as a common symptom, rather than looking at people with clusters and trying to find a common cause.

sorry, but ya got me started...

-tommyD

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by oringkid on Aug 19^th, 2002, 4:01pm

Perhaps it is not the exposure to us, but our parents. My brother was born with a birth defect, shortened tendons. But he does not have CH. My daughter is mentally retarded, but does not, so far, have CH.

Anyone else have birth defects in their family?

Sherry

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Charlie on Aug 19^th, 2002, 4:17pm

Heavy Metal always gives me a headache too

Charlie

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by Bob P on Aug 19^th, 2002, 4:22pm

Need I say anything?
http://pahlow.net/ch/archive/photos/hub.jpg

Title: Re: Ok, far fetched idea here....
Post by sailpappy on Aug 21^st, 2002, 7:58pm

;D ;D go to the source! Organochlorineshttp://webhome.idirect.com/~born2luv/backgrounder.html
Organophosphateshttp://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic286.htm
You decide? Pappy