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Topic: shrooms dilema... (Read 1129 times) |
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amos
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shrooms dilema...
« on: Apr 27th, 2005, 8:49am » |
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Hi,
I'm Chronic for 6 years, last 18 months non-stop 1-3 CH per day. 
After detoxing medications for 5 days, I tried fresh 20g (2 g dry) shrooms.  
During the next 4 days I had 3-4 CH level 4-6 every night. 
Then I tried again with 10 g,(thats all the shrooms i had)
the result was 24 hours pf, and then it's started again. This time all night none stop 7-9 level.
(during all the time i was medicine free, and killed the CH with oxigen and pain killers)
I decided to stop shrooms treatment, grow more shrooms that last for long treatment, and try again after some relief.
I know I need few treatments and I know it goes down before it goes up, but can someone advise me if to start again with low dose and go up, or try 30g and go down?
Thanks…
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dougchunyo
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #1 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 9:13am » |
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I have not tried the Clusterbuster solution yet, I chose to try Kudzu during cultivation in hopes of getting some relief while I waited for the medicine to grow. For me, the Kudzu took care of the CH's completely and I never grew my crop. You may want to read the info here on Kudzu and see if you want to try that while you grow your medicine.
If I read your post correctly, it seems you may not be on any other meds, shrooms and kudzu appear to sort of cancel each other out, and give no relief, though. So if you do try the kudzu you will need to detox off that before doing the Clusterbuster method.
I am sure people more experienced with mushrooms will be posting some help for you very shortly.
Best of Luck!
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JJA
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #2 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 9:45am » |
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What kind of effects did you have at 20g? I'm guessing that was plenty if they were reasonably potent. I would base the dose on what you experience, more than a weight. (some visual anomalies, but still coherent) I think 30g would be overkill.
Good Luck
Jesse
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Renee
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #3 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 10:09am » |
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what pain killer were you using with the o2 after dosing?
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LeeS
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #4 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 10:14am » |
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Sorry about all the questions Amos - but when was your first 20g dose?
If it was very recently, you may well find things start to improve gradually, but beware the trex!
-Lee
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SteCo
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #5 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 10:59am » |
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Amos,
what levels did you achieve with each dose?
And if you are using trex (or similiar) for the pain killer, it may cause nasty rebound CH's in some.....
With the o2...you have the high flow regulator and mask correct?
SteCo
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Flash
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Do not take analgesic type painkillers for CH or it makes things much much worse.
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #7 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 6:32pm » |
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Amos,
You may not need to adjust the dose at all.
The most glaring comment you made was that you'd detoxed off all meds....but then mentioned except pain killers.
If they are opiod-based then they probably blocked any clusterbusting effects.
The rest of the questions asked are also important for us to know before we can give any further advice....
Bobw
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Bob P
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #8 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 6:37pm » |
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So do shrooms work on the 5HT sites and are effected by triptans or do they work on the opioid sites and are effected by pain killers?
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SteCo
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #9 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 7:32pm » |
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Quote: but then mentioned except pain killers.
If they are opiod-based then they probably blocked any clusterbusting effects. |
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I could not think of the classification name. But I thought the very same thing about the pain killer.
At the huge risk of getting slammed in here, before being able to find some mushrooms, I had to take a vicaden (sp?) (opiate family I believe) to get a full nights sleep during the work week. In fact, I tried it for two weeks.....only ONE pill mid-week/week - 2 total. (Hey, I was friggin desperate, had some big projects going on and I was screwing up from a severe lack of sleep.) Got the full nights sleep each night....but paid hell for it afterwords EACH TIME like clockwork. So I do not think it was a fluke. Rendered the o2 basically useless for several days and got some HORRIFIC rebounds starting 1-2 days after. And these seemed to continue after that for a couple of days, but not as bad as the 1st rebound day. Like I said o2..It was useless... It eased up the Ch intense pain in the morning some, but turned it into a looonnnggggg HA (maybe migrainish?) and had re-occuring CH's on top of the long migrainish ones the entire day and night... After I got that damn med out of my system, o2 started working again. Got some Alt. therapy medicine and lived happily thereafter. Thats my story and I'm stickin to it!! 
HTH
SteCo
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miapet
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #10 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 9:32pm » |
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Clusterbusters have collected enough information to know that there are MANY drugs that inhibit the effects of the alternative treatment. How do they know? BECAUSE WE ALL TALK ABOUT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN USING FOR ALL MEDICAL ISSUES! We discuss all drugs (scripts, over-the-counter, herbs, supplements, etc) and then discuss the way the treatment worked/didn't work. Everyone keeps headache journals, so it's not hard to follow the path of the beast. Because of this, we know that triptans interfere, prednisone interferes, melatonin appears to interfere for some people, opiods interfere, and those are only a few of the things we have found can cause problems . . .if I know something interferes for some people, why would I want to test if it interferes with MY treatment?? The idea is to have to treat LESS, not treat for a waste.
Bob, if you truly cared about the things you ask, you wouldn't roam for shroom thread to shroom thread asking the same basic things, or stirring the same pot . . .of course, that's just my opinion . . .but, the data appears to support that opinion . ..
*positive light and energy*
miapet
wishing everyone p/f lives . . NO MATTER WHAT METHOD OF BATTLE THEY CHOOSE
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amos
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #11 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 2:31am » |
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Thank you all. I am not posting a lot, but I read and learn a lot.Thanks.
I'll try to answer your questions and share some information:
During the last years I'm taking Verapamil 240-360 and
Valproate 200-400 every morning.
Few times a year, usually before traveling, also adding frednison
(starting at 100mg-and down for about 10-14 days).
I entered the Shrooms because the last 18 months was hell.
Visiting London last month I got the 20mg fresh Ecuadorians, and 20g Truffles
(Truffles easy to store for few weeks).
I started detoxing from all meds. and was med free for 5 days.
During the 5 days I had few small CHs.
I used O2 (with nose tube, not a full mask, I don’t like it),
And the Pain killer I used is Dipyron liquid 1000mg, and Ibuprofen 200g.
The first dose was the 20g (I dried them as soon as got them).
It was fun…. My face hurt from laughter… very quick and clear thinking,
It's like "drinking party" but you are in control. I could feel my inner part under my skin...
This was 3 weeks ago.
I had 4 nights each 3-4 small scale CHs. No Meds, only O2 and Pain killers.
The 2nd shrooms dose – 10g truffles. The (supporting friends had wine).was after 5 days.
Results: they got drunk, I was clear. Minor effects.
During the following night and day no CH.
After 24 hours, at night before sleep, I started a 3 days of 4-5 CHs per day, High level. after 3 long days I used my Imitrex Inj to stop it.
Knowing I don’t have more Shrooms, I decided to go back to med+frednison, get
Some relief, and prepare myself for another Shrooms shuttle.
My growing kit ( complite Equadorian set made by Camden mushroom company, UK) grew 6-7g dry in 14 days!
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JJA
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #12 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:02am » |
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on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:37pm, Bob P wrote:| So do shrooms work on the 5HT sites and are effected by triptans or do they work on the opioid sites and are effected by pain killers? |
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I think the best evidence suggests that psilocin does not work at the same receptors as either drug. Triptans interact (in a complicated way) at 5-HT1 receptors and psilocin acts at 5-HT2 receptors. Obviously opiods act at opiod receptors. All these receptors are grouped together in a structure called the brain where they interact.
Jesse
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Bob P
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #13 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:24am » |
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Quote:| Bob, if you truly cared about the things you ask, you wouldn't roam for shroom thread to shroom thread asking the same basic things, or stirring the same pot |
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My question really is a very logical question intended to cause thought.
I've heard that triptans interfere, 5HT receptor sites?
I've heard analgesics interfere, opiod sites?
I've heard verapamil interferes, via the calcium ion pathways across the cell membrane?
Some ask why, others are satisfied with 'just because'.
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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Flash
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Oh no it's much simpler than that.
Alcohol makes CH worse. If you are taking virtually any CH med and continue drinking then the alcohol will offset any improvment gleaned from the med. Yet alcohol is unlikely to affect the same transmitters.
In fact too much or too little of virtually anything will make CH much worse. Too much sleep, too little sleep, too much salt, too little salt, eating too much, or not eating frequently enough, too much light, not enough light. Pretty much everything we do has an impact on brain chemistry. Even visiting the crapper. Not every individual experiences every single such effect - we're all different. But the fact is that CH is a tightrope.
Analgesic drugs are known to make CH much worse full stop. These include ibuprofen BTW. Most meds prescribed for CH can also make the CH worse in some cases and under certain conditions.
The shrooms are different in that they appear to somehow cause the brain chemistry to recalibrate itself. Anything else that fucks around with the brain chemistry counteract this process. Think of it as a set of balance scales. The shrooms work to finely balance the scales, but if you keep dropping all manner of other shit on the scales then equilibrium will never be reached.
BobP's problem is that he only gets what 2 headaches a day every day for 3 months once every 3 years? So it's not that big a deal for him to screw around with various misguided combinations of meds hoping to stumble on some magic formula.
Something I've picked up from these boards are that the more severe a persons CH is interms of frequency (whilst symptomatic) and magnitude, the more prone they are to rebounds and the less effective the meds tend to be, often exhibiting a substantial negative impact.
For me no meds was better than meds. Not pleasant but I'd challenge everyone to keep a pain diary (add up the kip scores for each day) and compare medicated and unmedicated for any med. Even O2. The results are so disturbing that few people are prepared to acknowledge that nothing is actually one of the best treatments. Please note that in my experience the negative impact of most medications lingers and even intensifies for about 1 weeks after you stop taking them! Kind of discourages us from stopping don't it?
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SteCo
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #15 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 9:49am » |
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Quote:| I used O2 (with nose tube, not a full mask, I don’t like it), |
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The mask will make a BIG difference..even tho you do not like it...I do not think anyone likes them lol...just hold it up to your face, most of my CH's will go away after maybe 5-10 minutes....and be SURE you have a high flow regulator....BOTH of these items are a MUST HAVE to make o2 work properly....look at the button on the left of this page "oxygen info" to see exactly what you need. Using this technique.....I think you'll find you will not need pain killers. Better to stay off all that stuff, due to potential rebounds.
Keep in mind post dose hits, are not uncommon at all. I kinda expect them, mine are usually 2 days after, and right after that one I get relief.
Quote:
My growing kit ( complite Equadorian set made by Camden mushroom company, UK) grew 6-7g dry in 14 days! |
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Amazing.....the UK guys have this stuff figured out bigtime LOL
Please review your o2 setup......you may be amazed. The tube setup and low flow regulators do not touch CH's
Good luck
SteCo
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Bob P
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #16 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 9:59am » |
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Quote:| The shrooms are different in that they appear to somehow cause the brain chemistry to recalibrate itself. Anything else that fucks around with the brain chemistry counteract this process. Think of it as a set of balance scales. The shrooms work to finely balance the scales, but if you keep dropping all manner of other shit on the scales then equilibrium will never be reached. |
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And your proof to substantiate these statements is? Or are these just assumptions someone has made?
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
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jminmilwaukee
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #17 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 10:03am » |
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BobP wrote:
Quote:| Plain and simple, there are some clusterheads who used the treatment for medicinal purposes and have graduate to drug abuse, no medicine involved. |
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To which I reply "And your proof to substantiate these statements is? Or are these just assumptions someone has made?"
Jmin
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Flash
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on Apr 28th, 2005, 9:59am, Bob P wrote:
And your proof to substantiate these statements is? Or are these just assumptions someone has made? |
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Note my use of the word 'appear'. This implies use of HYPOTHESIS.
Hypothesis means the forming of a loose theory to explain a phenomenon, based on observations and circumstantial evidence, but without any proof. It's essentially an educated guess. And how serious you take it depends on how educated the guesser is. Which should put me close to the bottom of the reliability charts.
Other terms worth looking up:
anal retentive
pedantic.
context
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miapet
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #19 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 11:17pm » |
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BobP, you forgot to answer the question about why you roam from thread to thread about the psilocybin treatment . . .and stir the same pot with the same basic questions and the same argumentative stance? It doesn't matter how your 'questions' are answered or how your 'statements' are responded to . . .you just continue as if nothing was said . . .
Personally, it's my belief, that most research starts with an idea and then data collection . . . and then evaluate the collected data . . .if there appears to be a pattern, then test it . . . which, if I'm not mistaken, is what's happening with Clusterbusters, Dr. Sewell, and this treatment . . .
*positive light and energy*
miapet
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hdido
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I must disagree with the oft stated notion that all opiods make CH worse and cause "rebound" CH pain. I have found nothing in the literature to support these contentions. The main reason most doctors do not prescribe opiates is because they do not act fast enough when CH hits, but Stadol spray shows great promise and a combination of slow release opiods, used on a regular basis along with fast acting opiates, taken when an attack begins, does help some people-myself being one as nothing else provided relief. Early in my CH career I was tested to see if my CH attacks were made worse, i.e., "rebound HAs". This was done by, under doctor's control, reducing the amount of opiates that I was using until I was taking none and then waiting for two weeks to see what happened. My CH pain continued to get worse, whereas had I been suffering from "rebound" HA pain, the degree of pain should have decreased. Rebound HAs occur when opiates or other analgesic type drugs are used in excess for tension and other types of "normal" HAs-in a sense, the opiates cause the pain to be "stored up" and when the drugs stop the "stored up" pain comes roaring through. A true rebound HA will improve and usually disappear once the body is detoxed of all of the opiates and, again, I have never seen anything written about rebound CH nor have my neurologists (I was tested for rebound because, at that time, my doc, not a neurologist, was not fully convinced that I had CH-unfortunately, I was found to have CH and continue to have them). Please remember that what works for one does not work for all in CH treatment. Thanks for reading this to those who do.
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #21 on: Apr 29th, 2005, 1:17am » |
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on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| I must disagree with the oft stated notion that all opiods make CH worse and cause "rebound" CH pain. . |
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I agree that this is not a hard and fast rule. A lot of people say it because for a lot of people, it is true. They don't often make things better, but then, most people don't have them prescribed for clusters by a pain specialist that is willing to prescribe them in a way that would give them the best chance (slim as it may be) to help and not hurt.
on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| The main reason most doctors do not prescribe opiates is because they do not act fast enough when CH hits, . |
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I agree. And when people are prescribed slow acting opiods, they don't work fast enough to improve the situation so all they are left with are the negative side effects.
on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| but Stadol spray shows great promise and a combination of slow release opiods, used on a regular basis along with fast acting opiates, taken when an attack begins, does help some people-myself being one as nothing else provided relief. . |
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Stadol has been around long enough now (years) that I wouldn't say it shows great promise. Not many docs will prescribe it anymore so although it may have been a "first round draft choice" when it came out, it's now a bench player. When it gets in the game, it works well...for some people. It'll never be a starter again on the cluster team. It's great promise days are over for the cluster community.
Agreed with the combination regimen. (for a select set of doctors and patients) Not many of either will try it because the downside is often worse (for many) than the upside (for the lucky few).
on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| Rebound HAs occur when opiates or other analgesic type drugs are used in excess for tension and other types of "normal" HAs-in a sense,. |
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Agreed. But rebound headaches do not have to be what the original headache was. Meaning, if you have clusters, and use analgesics, you can get rebound headaches, that are not clusters. You don't necessarily get rebound clusters. You get a rebound analgesic headache. And they hurt too.
If you get migraines, you won't necessarily get a rebound migraine, but the rebound analgesic headache may trigger a migraine. It can also trigger clusters. It doesn't happen for all, but it can.
on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| the opiates cause the pain to be "stored up" and when the drugs stop the "stored up" pain comes roaring through. . |
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This is not always true. Actually, a rebound headache, is by definition, a completely NEW headache. New pain. What you have described is called a "breakthrough" headache.
on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:18am, hdido wrote:| Please remember that what works for one does not work for all in CH treatment. Thanks for reading this to those who do. |
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Completely agreed.
Bobw
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hdbngr
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #22 on: Apr 29th, 2005, 12:13pm » |
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In regards to the question of whether or not opioids are effective in treatment, I think in some cases, they are. The blanket statement that they are ineffective for CH treatment may discourage chronic sufferers from even asking if there is something that can control the pain.
I credit the Duragesic patch for keeping me sane and alive two years ago. Initially, it takes 24 hours to be absorbed, then delivers a continueous dose for 78 hours, until the next patch is put on. We should not be ashamed to state that we have tried them, or used them with success. It does not make us weak, or addicts, and asking for pain releif should not translate into "drug-seeking behavior".
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E-Double
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #23 on: Apr 29th, 2005, 12:45pm » |
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on Apr 29th, 2005, 12:13pm, hdbngr wrote:We should not be ashamed to state that we have tried them, or used them with success. It does not make us weak, or addicts, and asking for pain releif should not translate into "drug-seeking behavior".
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I finally learned that on Wednesday.....all day battle needed a break and went to hospital......never did before because of the potential stigma......
I think I am stronger for letting go for once and have learned that it is ok.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: shrooms dilema...
« Reply #24 on: Apr 29th, 2005, 1:09pm » |
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on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:49am, Flash wrote:Pretty much everything we do has an impact on brain chemistry. Even visiting the crapper.
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So I guess that would correlate with those of us who've been told we have shit for brains.
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