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MichaelEaston
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Chinese Medicine
« on: Dec 28th, 2004, 5:06pm » |
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Hi all. I was here a couple months ago when I first got my cluster headaches, but I have forgotten my username so I needed to re-register.
Anyway, I am in the 8th (I think) week of my second cluster headache and my mother wants me to check out Chinese Medicine since western medicine (with the exception of Zomig and Neurontin) have not seemed to work.
This would include a deep painful massage in order to unblock energy and different organic substances that are put together and drank as tea.
I personally do not have any faith in this treatment but my mother seems to be pushing for it, being that she has adult friends who have found relief from other serious ailments and injuries.
Has anyone tried this treatment? What do you think of it?
Thanks in advance.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #1 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 5:36pm » |
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Hi ...I've never tried it for CH, but hey...can't hurt right? I personally would probably try just about anything to see if it might work. I would be waty of claims that it can "cure" anything. just my  Good luck...let us know
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Kris_in_SJ
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #2 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 8:24pm » |
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I'd never say never try it, but deep tissue massage is unlikely to help CH (my daughter is a medical massage therapist). The tea might help if it is made from a certain type of mushroom that is illegal in the U.S. at the moment. However, I've heard those Chinese herbalists can work wonders.
Unless your mom is paying for it all though, do a little more research. You could end up spending a fortune for very little, if any, relief.
Here's hoping for the best!
Kris
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I'm a small woman in small town being chased by a VERY BIG BEAST!
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Ueli
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Michael,
you write "... since western medicine (with the exception of Zomig and Neurontin) have not seemed to work."
The last time I looked both Zomig and Neurontin were part of western medicine, so it's not too far fetched that you have been helped by it.
Did you try any of many "western" treatments, like oxygen, verapamil, topamax, lithium, imitrex, dekapote, ....., for all of which there are many success reports on this message board.
Your mother probably is looking for a "cure" for CH, something that western medicine cannot provide, in the same way there is no "cure" for a leg lost in an accident. But, albeit there is no cure for CH, modern medication can to a large extent ameliorate its devastating effects.
The alternative of "a deep painful massage in order to unblock energy" does not appeal to me. Where is this elusive "energy" or "chi" blocked? How can we be sure, that when it is unblocked, it doesn't just escape to outer space? What are theoretical foundations that CH has to do anything with the lack of some mysterious, unquantifiable "energy"?
A year ago I wrote a post about the merits of this Chinese mumbo jumbo:
Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine
and I still stick to that opinion.
nani,
you say "...can't hurt right?" Did the "deep painful massage" escape to you? 
As a clusterhead you know how much untreated cluster attacks hurt. Going untreated for a few weeks, for some unproven mystic treatment instead, does hurt quite a bit IMHO.
PFNADs,
Ueli, a strong believer in better living through pharmaceutical products 
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MichaelEaston
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #4 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 10:37pm » |
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I have tried many medications but my mother and the doctors want me to avoid to avoid the heavier stuff since I am so young.
Is there anyone out there that has actually tried it?
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floridian
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I have been to an acupuncturist (2 actually) in the past two months for non-CH conditions. The first guy, 3 treatments - no effects. One needle in each foot, one needle in each wrist, no change in anything I was going for (anxiety/high blood pressure).
So I switched to someone that a friend recomended. First session had the endorphins flowing - they did a treatment called removing aggressive energy that involved 10 or so needles in the back, parallel to the spine. I was incredibly relaxed to the point of being groggy (it was equivalent to 4 beers, which for me is quite a bit). After a few more treatments, some exercise and lifestyle changes, my blood pressure is 122/84 and anxiety is back to normal.
Skepticism like Ueli expresses can be good, but I think he is a bit dogmatic. There are thousands of studies that provided evidence that acupuncture is more than placebo:
1) Contrary to what Ueli wrote in his essay, the meridians and acupuncture points can be measured using electrical conductivity/resistance of the skin. They are also associated anatomically with a high density of particular types of nerves. (see abstracts below) Another recent study from the Mayo Clinic found very high correspondence between a map of tender points reported by a group of fibromyalgia patients and the traditional map of acupuncture points - they concluded that it was not a random correlation.
2) Researchers led by Gerhard Litscher at the University of Graz have shown (using a double blind experiment with laser acupuncture) that stimulating acupoints that the chinese associate with vision lead to changes in the visual cortex of the brain that can be seen on a fMRI scan. No such changes in the brain were seen with stimulation of other acupoints, or sham stimulation of non-acupoints. www.litscher.info/Publikationen.html (auf Deutsch)
3) You mention teas (the pharmaceutical side of Chinese Medicine) - I personally think that would be more likely to have an effect on clusters than acupressure or acupuncture. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the idea of chi, there are compounds in the chinese pharmacopia that alter serotonin, block CGRP, reduce nitric oxide release, turn down inflammation, etc etc - these are all involved in cluster headache, although whether or not they help with clusters is an open question.
I don't see at as an either/or situation - clusters are painful and it is worth seeing a neurologist or other specialist who knows these headaches (most MDs and acupuncture physicians know little or nothing about them, although they may know a great deal about general health). Oxygen is a generally effective medicine that has few side effects. Melatonin before bed is helpful for many episodics, but doesn't help chronics - not sure what effects it has on a younger person.
If you do go the acupuncture/acupressure route, print this article and take it to the person who does your treatments: http://tinyurl.com/3u67j One focus of this article was on using acupuncture to improve the adrenal function (ie boost cortisone production in the body). It is a case study, and it hard to make conclusions based on one person, but maybe it will be helpful.
(continued)
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2004, 3:31pm by floridian » |
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floridian
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(continued from previous post)
Quote:Brain Res. 2004 Jun 25;1012(1-2):154-9.
Human acupuncture points mapped in rats are associated with excitable muscle/skin-nerve complexes with enriched nerve endings.
Li AH, Zhang JM, Xie YK.
As part of our ongoing investigation into the neurological mechanisms of acupuncture, we have tried to correlate the distribution of afferent nerve endings with acupuncture points (AP) in the rat hind limbs. In vivo extracellular microfilament recordings of Aalpha/Abeta/Adelta fibers were taken from peripheral nerves to search for units with nerve endings or receptive fields (RF) in the skin or the muscles. The location of the RFs for each identified unit was marked on scaled diagrams of the hind limb. Noxious antidromic stimulation-induced Evans blue extravasation was used to map the RFs of C-fibers in the skin or muscles. Results indicate that, for both A- and C-fibers, the distribution of RFs was closely associated with the APs. In the skin, the RFs concentrate either at the sites of APs or along the orbit of meridian channels. Similarly, the majority of sarcous sensory receptors are located at the APs in the muscle. Results from our studies strongly suggest that APs in humans may be excitable muscle/skin-nerve complexes with high density of nerve endings.
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Tohoku J Exp Med. 1998 Sep;186(1):19-25.
Transient decrease in skin resistance response and level at the deh-chi stage caused by manual acupuncture.
Liao TJ, Urata S, Nishikawa H.
Deh-chi is described as a kind of soreness, numbness, or heavy swelling in deep tissues during manual acupuncture. This finding is important in acupuncture therapy, although the mechanism of this phenomenon remains unclear. Skin resistance response (SRR) and skin resistance level (SRL) are expressed as a component of alternating current and direct current changes in electrodermal activity (EDA) respectively. In the present study, we recorded SRR and SRL, skin blood flow and perspiration simultaneously in an attempt to determine the relationship between skin sympathetic nerve activity and EDA at the deh-chi stage. We found that SRR, SRL and skin blood flow decrease, and that perspiration increases transiently at the deh-chi stage. Our findings indicate that manual acupuncture causes an increase in vasomotor and sudomotor activities, a decrease in skin blood flow, and increased perspiration. These SRR and SRL recordings may be taken as an indicator of deh-chi.
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Am J Chin Med. 1998;26(1):19-27.
Topography of low skin resistance points (LSRP) in rats.
Chiou SY, Chao CK, Yang YW.
Based on the electrical properties of the skin, a method employing the unijunction transistor (UJT) relaxation oscillator for detecting low skin resistance points (LSRP) was developed in this study. By means of this instrumentation, the topography of the LSRP in Wistar rats was developed. All the LSRP in the rats were found to be bilaterally and symmetrically distributed except those points located on the dorsal midline (i.e., governor vessel, GV) and the ventral midline (i.e., conception vessel, CV). The resistances of the LSRP on these two major vessels, including 14 CV points and 17 GV points of six rats were experimentally determined to be in the ranges of 179.4 +/- 41.2 K omega and 152.5 +/- 32.2 K omega, respectively. The resistances of the GV points were found in general to be lower than those of the CV points. Most non-LSRP, on the other hand, exhibited resistances of greater than 420 K omega. It is noted that the resistances of most LSRP increased yet still retained a separate identity within thirty minutes after the death of the animals, but the low resistance properties of some LSRP gradually disappeared thereafter and could not be detected by the relaxation oscillator.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #7 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 3:19pm » |
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Quote:| Did the "deep painful massage" escape to you? |
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No... painful massage can also lead to pain relief. You know, I'm for anything that makes any ailment feel better, Ueli. And frankly, you shouldn't knock something until you've tried it. I have gotten relief from a number of other issues with "alternative" medicine, including Chinese medicine.
Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies?
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don
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Quote:| you shouldn't knock something until you've tried it |
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Why not? Why would I go where many others have gone before and have only failed.
Dont knock it till you've tried it is a ridiculous statement to make when treating CH.
I've never tried Bonji stones but I already know that is pointless, so I wouldn't bother to try it.
Quote:| Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies? |
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The old bat doen't need to. He's Bill Gate's uncle-in-law.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #9 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 9:26pm » |
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don, don, don....I stated to be wary of "cure" claims, but that doesn't mean it might not make him feel better in other ways. I get all tense and agitated and depressed along with CH...I would try anything to make myself feel better in any way.
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E-Double
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #10 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 9:35pm » |
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Does "Happy Ending" after the massage constitute Chinese Medicine? 
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I can't believe that I have to bang my
Head against this wall again
But the blows they have just a little more
Space in-between them
Gonna take a breath and try again.
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don
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Try Bonji stones and get back to me.
Quote:| Does "Happy Ending" after the massage constitute Chinese Medicine? |
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ROFLMMFAO. Does in my book.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2004, 9:37pm by don » |
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MichaelEaston
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #12 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 9:56pm » |
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I've tried Accupuncture...no relief at all...homeopathy...no relief at all...chiropracter....no relief at all..and to the "deep massage guy" once and I didn't get any relief, and I felt like it was a waste of time.
Personally I think I could be going down another path rather than than all of these alternative doctors who haven't helped me.
My family is just looking for an answer but they are looking the wrong way.
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E-Double
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #13 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 10:05pm » |
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At least they are trying dude.....Support goes a long way!!
The massage could possibly help alleviate the tension you might get from thrashing around.....
And the happy ending just helps life in general 
good luck brother!!
E.
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I can't believe that I have to bang my
Head against this wall again
But the blows they have just a little more
Space in-between them
Gonna take a breath and try again.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #14 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 10:11pm » |
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Ummm eric....
Quote:she has adult friends who have found relief from other serious ailments and injuries.
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Quote:| want me to avoid to avoid the heavier stuff since I am so young |
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E-Double
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #15 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 10:25pm » |
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Define adult.........
Come on Nani....Don't try to change the topic and skew my comment. ...
If this lad is that young his mom would not be pushing "happy endings" to begin with........
I am far from deviant....perverse and sometimes inappropriate but not a freak
Seriously.........
How old are ya Michael?
I wish you well and if you are at least 18 then enjoy....
If not..."Happy Ending" means a smile and the end of a fairy tale as in "Happily Ever After"
Eric
(A man who's name is followed by Alphabet soup and who wants to keep all of his credentials therefore will not be making anymore silly comments for fear of a liable suit)
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I can't believe that I have to bang my
Head against this wall again
But the blows they have just a little more
Space in-between them
Gonna take a breath and try again.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #16 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 10:40pm » |
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...just wanted to bring it to your attention, hun... 
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karma
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #17 on: Dec 30th, 2004, 6:26am » |
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Michael,
You have unwittingly entered into the treatments methods that have polarized many.
There are many that rely completely on standard meds. and there are many that rely on non-traditional methods. One of the things to remember is that there is NO cure for CH we can only treat the symptoms.
Give oxygen a serious look. This is a great way to limit the amount of triptans used.
Give the mushroom treatment a serious look. If your mom is looking for alternatives to" western meds" then this may interest her and more importantly you.
I tried the Triptan route and while I never say never, it will be way down on the list of things I will try in the future.
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MichaelEaston
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #18 on: Dec 30th, 2004, 11:59am » |
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I am 15 years old.
Oxygen worked at first, but then it stopped working.
As for preventatives:
I have done Prendisone/Verapamil, then Amerge/Amitriptyline and other medicines to lower serotonin...The first treatment helped more than the second...then we went to homeopathy/accupuncture/chiropracter/ and even as far as these crazy european healers who claim to have seen ghosts.
Now we have found a new doctor who supposedly is one of the premier CH doctors in New England, who wants me to take Synthroid and now Verapamil, except at a higher dose than before (I now take 480mg a day..the first time it was much lower) I believe this treatment has helped the most although it has barely helped at all.
I'm sick and tired of all these "doctors" who claim to be miracle workers but can't do a thing for me. I know there are more medications out there from just looking at the survey.
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #19 on: Dec 30th, 2004, 12:08pm » |
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Lithium works pretty well along with the verapamil. I haven't heard of Synthroid. I'm sorry you're suffering with this so young, sweetie. My first episode was at age 16. Does your mom know you are looking at this site? Maybe she should have a look as well. There is no cure, but it can be treated and make your life a little more livable. Pain free wishes to you, hun. 
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Ueli
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on Dec 29th, 2004, 3:19pm, nani wrote:| Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies? |
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That's the typical replay of someone who gets medical "knowledge" form weekly women's magazines, insults instead of sensible arguments.
Floridian, I don't remember to have mentioned teas, but without a doubt, the ancient Chinese pharmaceutics have a lot of useful stuff. But I think it would be about time to investigate them with modern chemical methods, to clean them up of archaic superstitions, like the Chinese version of Viagra, that is responsible for the near extinction of Rhinos and Chinese Tigers.
Nobody has even attempted rebut my reasoning why nature should have wasted millions of years in developing an intricate system of meridians and mystical chi, that all the time was of no use, until a few hundreds years ago some crafty needle artist learned to make it into money.
(One fact about acupuncture that, IMHO is especially disturbing, is that several schools with very different approaches exist. Also, the inability of one acupuncturist to pass on his needle points to 'cure' CH (or anything else for that matter) to a colleague, indicates to me that any results claimed are purely fortuitous, cure of a psychosomatic disease or simply an effect of the natural healing abilities of the body.)
Quote:| the meridians and acupuncture points can be measured using electrical conductivity/resistance of the skin. |
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I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by
Quote:| The resistances of the LSRP on these two major vessels, including 14 CV points and 17 GV points of six rats were experimentally determined to be in the ranges of 179.4 ± 41.2 KOhm and 152.5 ± 32.2 KOhm, respectively. |
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Someone who measures a skin resistance to 4 digits accuracy (0.05%) and then gives an error margin of 23% (this time only with a 3 digit accuracy) does IMHO only prove that he has not the slightest idea of interpreting measuring data, he only tries to make an impession with his 'exact' results. Therefore, his results are nothing but useless.
The link given to 'Gerhard Litscher at the University of Graz' only shows that he is an assiduous publicist, but does not give any indication of the quality of his ~50 publications. A peer review on his researches would be more helpful.
Quote:| If you do go the acupuncture/acupressure route, print this article and take it to the person who does your treatments: http://tinyurl.com/3u67j |
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How should I trust a doctor of osteopathy who "cured" ONE CH? patient, and who's web site contains gems like
Quote:Cluster headaches are often seen in conventional medicine.
...the headaches commonly begin in the 3rd or 4th decade of life.
Some of the abortive therapies include ..., non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, .., and corticosteroids
Results: The patient was able to discontinue all her medications and experienced a cluster headache-free interval of 8 months. The headaches recur sporadically, but respond to treatment with acupuncture and rofecoxib (sic!).
Conclusions: Acupuncture can be used to provide sustained relief from cluster headaches and to stimulate adrenal cortisol to aid in discontinuing corticosteroids.
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I've heard of "a cluster headache-free interval of 8 months" occurring spontaneously. 
So, I'm still waiting for someone to counter my arguments, of the improbability of evolution developing meridians and chi, instead of hear-say "evidence" (or plain insults) as a proof.
PFNADs, Ueli
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #22 on: Jan 2nd, 2005, 12:32pm » |
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Quote:| That's the typical replay of someone who gets medical "knowledge" form weekly women's magazines |
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Hmmm.... that's quite an assumption you're making. Just so you know I have no interest in verbally sparring with a long winded know it all. One thing I have found to be extremely important in life...having an open mind. It's a good thing others have felt this way throughout history...your argument might still be based on whether leeches are the best CH treatment or not.
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floridian
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Quote: Floridian, I don't remember to have mentioned teas, but without a doubt, the ancient Chinese pharmaceutics have a lot of useful stuff. But I think it would be about time to investigate them with modern chemical methods, to clean them up of archaic superstitions, like the Chinese version of Viagra, that is responsible for the near extinction of Rhinos and Chinese Tigers.
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Your right - you didn't mention the teas, the original poster mentioned them. I agree that it should be investigated with modern methods, and there are thousands of articles in the research on topics like the various biochemical effects of ginseng (the original Chinese viagra) or the immunomodulating effects of Astragalus polysacharides. The science is not always complete, and doesn't always make it to the practicioner (as is true of western medicine), but it isn't always placebo. I agree that demand for animal parts has had a negative effect on some species, and that is poor stewarship on par with the extinction of the whales, which began hundreds of years ago as human populations and technological ability accelerated.
Quote:
Nobody has even attempted rebut my reasoning why nature should have wasted millions of years in developing an intricate system of meridians and mystical chi, that all the time was of no use, until a few hundreds years ago some crafty needle artist learned to make it into money.
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In fact, people have been pressing on sore spots instinctively since the begining of man. Evolution did create mechanisms like referred pain, where the pain appears in an area that is not injured. Evolution can lead to intricately beautiful mechanisms, but it is blind. Of what evolutionary significance is the the appendix, or vestigal toes?
Even if we pretend that we have discovered everything there is to know about the anatomy of nerves, that does not explain why a person wets themselves if they are sleeping and their hand is put into warm water. You can dismiss that as a reflex, but giving that behavior a name doesn't explain it, or its signficance to human evolution. The behavior of the whole cannot be explained by summing its parts, and I contend that acupuncture makes use of reflexes which are as real as the wet spot on Bubba's pajamas.
Quote:
(One fact about acupuncture that, IMHO is especially disturbing, is that several schools with very different approaches exist. Also, the inability of one acupuncturist to pass on his needle points to 'cure' CH (or anything else for that matter) to a colleague, indicates to me that any results claimed are purely fortuitous, cure of a psychosomatic disease or simply an effect of the natural healing abilities of the body.) |
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Does it disturb you that CH is treated with migraine medicines, blood pressure medicines, nerve blocks and ablations, anti-epilepsy medicines, atypical antipsychotic medicines and plain oxygen? One could make the case that such an inconsistent approach indicates that western medicine is disorganized and clueless. Or it could mean that the body is quite complex and there is more than one way to treat a given condition.
While I agree that the relevance of acupuncture to CH is unproven, it is largely uninvestigated. I would also disagree with your claim that knowledge of specific effects of acupuncture points cannot be passed on to others. Stimulation of one particular point on the wrist has repeatedly been shown to reduce post-operative nausea - there is a large body of scientific evidence for a 'reflex' between the P6 acupuncture point and the nausea centers of the nervous system. A portion of this evidence is in the continuation of this post:
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| « Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2005, 11:10am by floridian » |
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floridian
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"REVIEWERS' CONCLUSIONS: This systematic review supports the use of P6 acupoint stimulation in patients without antiemetic prophylaxis. Compared with antiemetic prophylaxis, P6 acupoint stimulation seems to reduce the risk of nausea but not vomiting." Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004;(3):CD003281.
"Pe 6 stimulation has also been shown to be an effective antiemetic for symptoms associated with pregnancy and chemotherapy." Schmerz. 1997 Feb 25;11(1):9-12. [Acupuncture in anesthesia or analgesic-induced nausea and vomiting]
"In the [acupuncture] treatment group, the incidence of vomiting was significantly less (22% for the K-D2 group and 26% for the P6 group) than in the control group (56.7%) at 24 h after surgery (P < 0.001)." Anesth Analg. 2002 Oct;95(4):1103-7. Capsicum plaster at the korean hand acupuncture point reduces postoperative nausea and vomiting after abdominal hysterectomy.
"CONCLUSION: In children, P6 acupoint injections are as effective as droperidol in controlling early postoperative nausea and vomiting." Anesthesiology. 2002 Aug;97(2):359-66. P6 acupoint injections are as effective as droperidol in controlling early postoperative nausea and vomiting in children.
"Acupuncture appeared to ameliorate postoperative nausea and vomiting and might be useful elsewhere"
Clin Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2004 Nov;2(11):957-67. Complementary and alternative medicine in gastroenterology: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
"The efficacy of P6 acupuncture for PONV prevention is similar to commonly used pharmacotherapies. Its appropriate role in prevention and treatment of PONV requires further study. " Anesthesiology. 2002 Feb;96(2):300-5. Electroacupuncture prophylaxis of postoperative nausea and vomiting following pediatric tonsillectomy with or without adenoidectomy.
"A significant difference was found in the number of patients who vomited and the total number of the emetic episodes when comparing the two treatment groups with the placebo group (p < 0.0001)." Anaesthesia. 2001 Oct;56(10):927-32. Acupuncture versus ondansetron in the prevention of postoperative vomiting. A study of children undergoing dental surgery.
"CONCLUSION: Preoperative insertion of intradermal needles reduces postoperative pain, the analgesic requirement, and opioid-related side effects after both upper and lower abdominal surgery. Acupuncture analgesia also reduces the activation of the sympathoadrenal system that normally accompanies surgery." Anesthesiology. 2001 Aug;95(2):349-56. Preoperative intradermal acupuncture reduces postoperative pain, nausea and vomiting, analgesic requirement, and sympathoadrenal responses.
"This systematic review showed that nonpharmacologic techniques [acupuncture, electroacupuncture, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, acupoint stimulation, and acupressure.] were equivalent to commonly used antiemetic drugs in preventing vomiting after surgery. Nonpharmacologic techniques were more effective than placebo in preventing nausea and vomiting within 6 h of surgery in adults, but there was no benefit in children." Anesth Analg. 1999 Jun;88(6):1362-9. The use of nonpharmacologic techniques to prevent postoperative nausea and vomiting: a meta-analysis.
"CONCLUSION: In patients undergoing brief gynaecological surgery, placebo effect of acupressure decreased nausea after 24 h but vomiting and need of rescue antiemetics was reduced only by acupressure with the correct P6 point stimulation." Acta Anaesthesiol Effect and placebo effect of acupressure (P6) on nausea and vomiting after outpatient gynaecological surgery.
"In the laser stimulation group, the incidence of vomiting was significantly lower (25%) than that in the [double-blind] placebo group (85%)" Br J Anaesth. 1998 Oct;81(4):529-32. Laser stimulation of acupuncture point P6 reduces postoperative vomiting in children undergoing strabismus surgery.
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