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Topic: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosis (Read 983 times) |
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Riccardo
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Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosis
« on: Mar 26th, 2003, 9:08am » |
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The thermograpy is a not-invasive clinical test to define the "heat" of different zones of the body.
We tried this last day, and the results are very interesting.
2 CH patients and two non-sufferers.
The CHers have the pain side (one is in cycle, the other not!) much warmer than other side. the heat level scan shows that the highest level is around the trigeminal nerve and the temporal artheria. Nothing on the other side, and nothing at all on the 2 not-CH sufferers.
During the Genoa Meeting we'll do the thermography on all the CHers and non-CH sufferers present. If positive, it will be the first method to diagnose the CH!!!!!
I think that's a good thing
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2003, 9:22am by Riccardo » |
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Karla
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #1 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 10:15am » |
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This is wonderful news! Good work there Riccardo.
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Karla
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Margi
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #2 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 10:16am » |
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VERY interesting, sir Riccardo!! Anything that leads to effective diagnostic procedures is a point for our side! Thanks for sharing this with us.
Although, I gotta tell ya...telling us supporters that you clusterheads are hotties isn't exactly NEWS. We've known it for years!
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BobG
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #3 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 11:30am » |
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Your local fire department should have laser pointers that are used to detect heat sources. These laser guided beams are very accurate (down to a 10th of a degree ) and can give an instant reading.
Maybe we should all go to the fire department and have our heads examined.
Margi.........you always know the right things to say.
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cbolony
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #4 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 3:38pm » |
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Great work Riccardo
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firebrix
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #5 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 4:02pm » |
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VERY interesting Riccardo. Thanx for sharing that! Any new diagnostic tool is worth checking out!
I have to agree with Margi - Mopar is HOT STUFF! I thought it was our work in refractory that caused that!
Enlightened here
Wishing you PFDAN
firebrix
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suzy617
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #6 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 8:10pm » |
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I had that test done about 15 years ago when I was in a car accident. They did the whole body and it was quite embarrassing. Had to stand there naked in front of this young guy posing... 
I wish it had been more recently so I could have asked about my CH. That just wasnt brought up at that time.
Very interesting though..
suzy
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subluxationskill
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #7 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 8:27pm » |
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Ricardo,
I do a procedure called upper cervical specific and our baseline diagnostic procedure to determine if a person has interfernce to the brainstem area is done by using infra red thermography. Research that has been done in redwood city suggests taht each illness(asthma, migraine, ch, rheumatoid, add, addhd, and others) have characteristic heat therma assymetries. They have doent his research on the head and form the waist area up to the top of the head. These particular individuals in redwood city have doen pre and post thermal imaging of the body aas they go through upper cervical specific care. As a person heals and repairs there is a correaltion between the break up of the thermal assymetries and a erson symptom picture. I think you are probably aware of the fact that heat given off of the body is a window into nervous system function. Assymetries in heat are indicative of disturbances in the nerve sytem. The upper cervical specific procedure is designed to locate these interfernces in the upper neck region and then apply a vectored force into a given vertebrae to relieve the interference. The infra red thermography scans are used to determine if the correction is acheiving its objective. If you want to know more about htis and the research that has been done regarding all sorts of conditions go to this website www.titronics.com/asthma.htm or www.erinelster.com or www.blairchiropracticsoc.org
Again this procedure is not a cure all. No procedure is a cure all. however many conditions that have abffeld the mainstream medical profession have their roots in the upper neck and brainstem region.
to contact me : subluxationskill@hotmail.com
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Ueli
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #8 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 11:18pm » |
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Riccardo,
These are interesting findings that will hopefully help to find more efficient treatments of CH.
Even subluxationskill has to admit that the medical establishment, who in his opinion does nothing else than waste billions of $$, has hit one something useful. 
Sublux, do you really think Riccardo, or anybody else on this board for this matter, is so dimwitted to believe
Quote:| I think you are probably aware of the fact that heat given off of the body is a window into nervous system function. |
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? If we didn't knew it already, this sentence unmasks you as what you are: are low line greedy snake oil salesman that tries with some pseudo-scientifically garnished bullshit to suck money out of desperate sufferers. To anybody who had a few physics lessons (even if he slept through them) it is clear that thermography measures plain and simply skin temperature, and does not look through a 'window'. Differences in skin temperature are simply caused by different blood flow beneath the skin, and that may have many causes, not necessarily a nerve wrapped the wrong way around a vertebrae. BTW, have you used thermography on yourself, and found the hot spot associated with your dyslexia (a disease that according to your favorite web site can be cured too by neck wringing). Are you so busy you don't find time to treat yourself?
Quote:| The infra red thermography scans are used to determine if the correction is achieving its objective. |
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Does this mean your treatment is kind of cut and try? That is, you experiment with the neck until the target disease is eliminated, but your manipulations may then provoke another, possibly more severe, disease?
Sublux, read attentively Frank's last reply to one of your posts, I have nothing to add to this.
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subluxationskill
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #9 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 11:31pm » |
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Ueli,
You make me want to puke. YOu are the most closed minded individual I have ever met. Do you ever say anything positive to anyone? Is your world ful of hate and fear? Why are you so scared? Why are you so mad and angry at the world?
Drew
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Ted
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #10 on: Mar 26th, 2003, 11:39pm » |
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Riccardo, this is a great finding. Thank you for sharing these findings. It's one more reason to have hope for the someday.
Sub, so you use infra red in your business? I'm impressed. By that alone I'd say you're using pretty scientific methods to determine the pain's origins. If you take the latest technology to analyze your patients they must be pretty lucky patients to have someone so up-to-date. I keep thinking this over and over and then it always comes back and hits me in the face. IF this quack is so up on the latest technologies and knows how to use the technology to its fullest extent to treat people, why the hell wouldn't he know that the technology is one, not two words? If you can't spell infrared right, I mean just spell it right, why should you be trusted to use it or read it right?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2003, 11:42pm by Ted » |
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Riccardo
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #11 on: Mar 27th, 2003, 1:22am » |
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on Mar 26th, 2003, 11:31pm, subluxationskill wrote:Ueli,
You make me want to puke. YOu are the most closed minded individual I have ever met. Do you ever say anything positive to anyone? Is your world ful of hate and fear? Why are you so scared? Why are you so mad and angry at the world?
Drew |
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Sorry, but I disagree, may be your need to puke is caused by migraines.... ;D
Despite some (may be genetic, in Swiss/German people... ;D) ...hmmm ...lack of "mild" communication, UELI held and still hold an important role here. He is the more precise (you can read picky, but ..) person that can correct any wrong statement on this board.
UELI helped the right communication in a number of posts, and he never was wrong in medical field.
UELI is the person that hates more the snake oil vendors, but this is absolutely not a bad thing!
And he is not angry with all and ever, just when someone says something wrong here. We can disagree with the method (character), we can disagree on some topic out of CH in which he is particularly picky, but UELI is an institution here, and a good institution. No one is perfect!
///less seriously ...I love you UELI.... ;D ;D ;D ;D///
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tommyD
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #12 on: Mar 27th, 2003, 6:55am » |
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I don't want to get too excited until we're sure, but...
Oh, hell with it! I'm jumping up and down! This is the best news since shrooms! Great work Riccardo! bene!
Right now the only way for a doctor to dignose CH is to listen to the patient describe the symptoms (unless the patient gets hit during the exam, of course). This is good enough only if the doctor is listening, the doctor knows what he is hearing, the patient isn't confused or lying.
And for the shroomers out there, this may answer a concern I've had about the future, when indole-ring hallucinogens are approved and legalized for the treatment of clusters (okay, so I'm an optimist). One possible objection to approval is that fakers seeking drugs could memorize a cluster story and feed it to doctors to get a shroom script. Such potential for abuse could lead doctors to avoid prescribing the shroom treatment, much as they are skeptical of prescribing opiates for chronic (non-CH) pain.
Think of all the misdiagnoses that could be avoided with this tool. And this is the kind of high-tech, machine-based tool that the US medical system loves. Every hospital and clinic will have one more excuse to buy the latest infrared gadget.
And Ueli! Congratulation to you, too. you made Drew the Chiro Quack want to puke. Keep up the good work!
-tommyD
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Trond
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #13 on: May 15th, 2003, 7:45pm » |
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Hey Riccardo
This is very interesting, and I have to tell you that I am
confirming youre teory. Years ago I was taking a termo photo as an experiment in my job at the University of Oslo, and this photo shows exactly what you are talking about. My cluster side is much warmer than the other.
I cant remember now if I was in a cycle or not, but I have always wondered about it.
Trond (the viking) 
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hdbngr
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #14 on: May 16th, 2003, 7:56am » |
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About 6 years ago, the Houston Headache Clinic was using this as a diagnostic tool. Not sure if they still do this. They spotted a major difference in temperature on my left side and noted it as a "vascualr irregularity" in the documentation, but I didn't get the sense that they were surpirsed by this finding. I thought it was nice because I had a "picture" of my pain. Wish I still had them.
If you think about it, they could also weed out anyone "pretending" to have headaches to gain medication, attention. That would cut down on the ER problems experienced by many here, if there was a machine on hand that could "prove" CH.
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Tom
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #15 on: May 16th, 2003, 6:45pm » |
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Well, here a pretty old tool for the diagnosis/differentiation of headaches seems to have been rediscovered - the use of the thermography for these purposes reaches back to 1979 at least...:
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http://imigraine.net/other/mtrefs4.html
Mumford JM: Thermography and ice cream headache. Acta Thermogra 4:33-37, 1979
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http://www.houstonheadacheclinic.com/arts.html
Mathew NT, Alverez L: An evaluation of the usefulness of thermography in headache. Headache 22:150, 1982.
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http://www.wfubmc.edu/neurology/newha/mechanis.htm
1983: Drummond and Lance assessed the extracranial circulation of 66 migrainous patients during unilateral headache by recording the pulse amplitude of the superficial temporal artery and its main frontal branch, by facial thermography, and by changes in the intensity of headache when temporal or carotid arteries were compressed. These investigators concluded that dilation of the superficial temporal artery and its branches contributes substantially to migraine headache in only a minority of patients.
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http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/health/headache/head1.htm
cited from NINDS
from October 1997
Thermography, an experimental technique for diagnosing headache, promises to become a useful clinical tool. In thermography, an infrared camera converts skin temperature into a color picture or thermogram with different degrees of heat appearing as different colors. Skin temperature is affected primarily by blood flow. Research scientists have found that thermograms of headache patients show strikingly different heat patterns from those of people who never or rarely get headaches.
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http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/headache.htm
National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS):
from december 2002
Thermography is an experimental technique for diagnosing headache. In thermography, an infrared camera converts skin temperature into a color picture, or thermogram, with different degrees of heat appearing as different colors. Researchers have found that thermograms of headache patients show strikingly different heat patterns from those of people who never or rarely get headaches
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The famous AMA doesn't seem to be very convinced of the usefulness of the thermography at all, may be that there are more contradictory and non-reproducible results of the thermography procedures than we know:
http://www.ama-assn.org/apps/pf_online/pf_online?f_n=browse&doc=poli cyfiles/HOD/H-175.988.HTM
from: AMA = American Medical Association
H-175.988 Thermography Update. from: 03 Apr 03
(1) In view of the lack of sufficient proof of effectiveness, it is the policy of the AMA that the use of thermography for diagnostic purposes cannot be recommended at this time. It should be noted that research protocols using thermography are continuing and data derived from these studies will require careful evaluation. (2) The AMA will continue to monitor the published literature on thermography, with periodic reports as appropriate. (3) The AMA affirms the principle that proponents of a test, procedure, or treatment should bear the burden of proving that it is safe and effective for the proposed purpose through well-designed and well-controlled clinical trials. The results of these trials should be critically reviewed, preferably through reports submitted to peer-reviewed journals. (CSA Rep. C, A-93
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CONTRADICTION (or slip of the pen ?) to ITALIAN RESULTS finding a HYPERTHERMIA ON THE CONTRALATERAL SIDE :
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/10/01/03.html
Cluster headaches will typically yield a "Chai" sign of hyperthermia on the contralateral side; migraines typically yield a supraorbital cold patch on the ipsilateral side. Muscle tension headaches will reveal myofascial irritation patterns that will follow trigger point patterns published by Travell.
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Thomas
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subluxationskill
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #16 on: May 16th, 2003, 8:36pm » |
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Now if those medical people could only find what causes the thermal assymetries consistent with certain symptoms then you would all be in business!! Abnormal neurologic control over vascularity would be a good place to look. Perhaps abnorma neurologic function occurs from abnormal movment of the upper cervical spine creating abnormal proprioceptive input to the cns. Or perhaps abnormal motion of the upper cervical spine causes facet irritation and thus interferes with normal neurologic control in the vasculature. Just wild guesses. Maybe upper cervical corrections could help.
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Ueli
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #17 on: May 16th, 2003, 10:24pm » |
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on May 16th, 2003, 8:36pm, subluxationskill wrote:| Maybe upper cervical corrections could help |
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my business.
You shouldn't forget part of the sentence 
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Marc
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #18 on: May 16th, 2003, 10:29pm » |
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[quote][Perhaps abnorma neurologic function occurs from abnormal movment of the upper cervical spine creating abnormal proprioceptive input to the cns. Or perhaps abnormal motion of the upper cervical spine causes facet irritation and thus interferes with normal neurologic control in the vasculature. Just wild guesses. Maybe upper cervical corrections could help. /quote]
and perhaps not.......
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Tom
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subluxure,
« Reply #19 on: May 18th, 2003, 10:26am » |
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Hi subluxure,
in 1982 a had a severe ski accident with a isolated complex left knee injury - no head od spine injury at all. My right sided CH started in direct temporal connection to that accident - it means not even six years later !
Quote: «Or perhaps abnormal motion of the upper cervical spine causes facet irritation and thus interferes with normal neurologic control in the vasculature. Just wild guesses...»
I disagree completely with your wild untamed guesses concerning the neurologic control of the vasculature and the coincidenture of CH, I don't guess because I k n o w
- that o n l y a contralateral injury of the knee articulature causes CH.
- that an abnormal moture of the upper cervical spinature never causes a clasture
of cephalgiture.
- that an upper cervical disfuncture never can show a p e r i o d i c malmoture of
the spinature and also
- that upper spine alterature never can change the architecture of the cerebrature,
i.e., in our case not that of the hypothalamus furniture...
God help your denture and intelligenture ! Thomas
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Georgia
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #20 on: May 18th, 2003, 2:46pm » |
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Very interesting. Just the other day, Den was rubbing my head for me when my shadow was growing and he noticed a "hot spot" on the side where the pain was. It was an area that was a lot hotter than any other part of my head.
Whoo. Too much talk about head. Gotta go now.
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #21 on: May 19th, 2003, 4:00pm » |
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Yes, Very interesting....
16 yrs. ago when I saw Dr. Lee Kudrow he did a therography on me. I had never heard of it, but it was amazing to me when he showed me MY pic as opposed to a non-sufferer's pic. There was an area in mine that was of a different color than that of the other one. At the time, I thought that this, at least was hard evidence of our malady. Something you could actually see.....not,
oh yeah well you're in pain but pain is subjective kind of a thing.......you could be faking it"
Now Margi always says she has a pea brain, but my peas are much smaller than hers, so in my blonde haze here........I think therography a good thing as far as Ins. Co's and Neuros are concerned and we should be advising everyone here to ask their Dr.s about it. Maybe this could be the difference between written off as drug-seekers when we go to an ER or see a new Dr.
Riccardo, that therography doesn't look like you at all. More like Stephano.
LindaH
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subluxationskill
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #22 on: May 20th, 2003, 1:50pm » |
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Thanks for enlightening me thomas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Margi
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #23 on: May 20th, 2003, 2:16pm » |
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Linda? Did you just tell me I have fat peas? Because that's really not very nice and I'm totally crushed. Just because you're little, doesn't mean you got skinny peas, woman.
;P
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Thermography- interesting thing in CH diagnosi
« Reply #24 on: May 20th, 2003, 6:56pm » |
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and I apologize to you Margi. What I should have said is that my grey matter which we all know is distorted......is much denser than yours.
Better? lol Linda
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