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Topic: New Shroomer - results so far (Read 5749 times) |
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pinksharkmark
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #75 on: Jul 9th, 2002, 10:55am » |
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on Jul 6th, 2002, 9:43am, Bob P wrote:Everything I've read on neurotransmission, and I'm by no means a expert, I only go by what I read, says this:
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2. Neurotransmitters bind to receptors:
Neurotransmitters float across the synapse until they hit the dendrites of the next neuron. On each dendrite, neurotransmitters find molecules that are set to receive them. These molecules are called receptors. Neurotransmitters recognize specific receptors and "grab"" on to them, a process called binding. (The neuron that originally released the neurotransmitter is the "sending" neuron; the neuron that binds the neurotransmitter is the "receiving" neuron.) |
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That is correct, as far as it goes. The thing is, the receptor molecule doesn't necessarily have to ENGULF the entire neurotransmitter molecule in order to achieve binding. A molecule that is substantially similar to the neurotransmitter may also bind to that same receptor site, leaving portions of itself "dangling in the breeze", so to speak. This is why a receptor site designed to bind to serotonin will also accept serotonin "lookalikes". For example, it has been shown that LSD and similar hallucinogens bind to several subtypes of 5-HT receptors. Not only the 5-HT1a receptors, but also 5-HT2a and 2c receptors, and perhaps others as well.
Quote:| Each receptor accepts only certain neurotransmitters, much like a lock accepts only a certain key. |
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True. But more than one type of receptor will accept the same neurotransmitter. For example, all 5-HT receptors, no matter the subtype, will accept molecules of serotonin.
Quote:| That says to me that say a 5HT-1a neurotransmitter can only bind to a 5HT-1a site. |
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Do you mean to say there are different "flavors" of serotonin? I've never heard of that before. I was taught that any 5-HT receptor, regardless of its subtype, will accept serotonin. The neurotransmitter which binds to a 5-HT1a receptor is serotonin, not "serotonin 1a". The neurotransmitter which binds to a 5-HT2c receptor is also serotonin, not "serotonin 2c". Serotonin binding to one subtype produces a given physiological response, serotonin binding to a different receptor subtype produces a different response. But ALL of the 5-HT receptors initiate their response by capturing serotonin (or serotonin "lookalike" molecules.
Quote:| There are about 1000 different receptor sites on the neurons. |
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Yet there are nowhere NEAR a thousand different neurotransmitters. At least, science has yet to identify more than a handful of them. Clearly, the same neurotransmitter can be accepted at many subtly different receptor sites, just as a master key will open many superficially different (but fundamentally equivalent) locks.
Quote:| I'm guessing (just guessing) that psilocin activates a number of neurotransmitters, some deal with perception some with vasoconstriction. |
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According to the best efforts of today's neuropharmacologists, you are correct, if you meant to say "activates a number of receptors" rather than "neurotransmitters". Various studies have shown that psilocin and other chemically similar hallucinogens bind to at least three different subtypes of 5-HT receptors, as I mentioned above.
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pinksharkmark
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #76 on: Jul 9th, 2002, 11:12am » |
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on Jul 7th, 2002, 1:04am, rick wrote:| Wouldn't the hallucinations be caused by synapses which control perception sending a different signal which creates a high as opposed to the signal which they are programmed to send? |
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That is my position, and the position of the majority of psychedelic researchers. No one knows for sure. The entire question of how neurochemical reactions become interpreted by our consciousness as vision, for example, is still a mystery. This may ALWAYS be the case.
Quote:| If not, what causes the actual altered state of perception? |
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Excellent question. Some feel that the psilocin operates on a different area of the brain entirely (some as-yet undiscovered area), causing it to send out an odd mix of the standard neurotransmitters, and that it is this off-balance mixture of neurotransmitters which causes the altered perceptions. I personally feel this is incorrect, simply because the chemical similarity between, for example, psilocin and serotonin, is so striking it seems simpler (Occam's razor) to explain the phenomenon by envisioning the psilocin as a "super-serotonin".
Quote:| For example, the larger the quantity of hallucinogen one consumes, the harder they trip. Would extreme visuals experienced at level 5 as opposed to mild visuals experienced at level 1 be the result of synapses relating to sight being flooded with psilocin? I'm thinking this excess may cause an altered signal. |
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The general thinking on this point is that the more receptors are binding to psilocin, the more vivid the experience. If only three per cent of the 5-HT2a receptors in a person's brain are being stimulated by psilocin, the experience is fairly subtle. If thirty per cent of those receptors are engaged simultaneously, the experience is more vivid.
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Bob P
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #77 on: Jul 9th, 2002, 11:31am » |
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Quote:| Yet there are nowhere NEAR a thousand different neurotransmitters. At least, science has yet to identify more than a handful of them. |
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Oops, got carried away with the zero. There are approximately 100 identified neurotransmitters. From CSU Chico - ".....Neurotransmitters are chemicals which are released into the synaptic space whenever a neuron conducts an action potential to the axon terminals. There are perhaps 100 or so different neurotransmitter varieties in the brain. "
Quote:| True. But more than one type of receptor will accept the same neurotransmitter. For example, all 5-HT receptors, no matter the subtype, will accept molecules of serotonin. |
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May be, if you are talking about natural neurotransmitters. Psilocin is not a natural neurotransmitter that is found in the brain. My thinking is more along the lines of unatural or added neurotransmitters. Much like Imitrex only works on a few 5HT subtype receptors, not all 5HT receptors, perhaps psilocin does the same.
Quote:| Do you mean to say there are different "flavors" of serotonin? |
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No. Again as above, I'm referring to a substances ability to activate only certain sub-type receptors, like Imitrex and other triptans.
Back to the original discussion though, I'm still of the belief that each receptor site can only send it's preprogramed action potential through the neuron. You can't hook a psilocin molecule to a 5HT-whatever receptor and make it send a different action potential. You could, however, activate the right combination of receptor sites and their combined action potential message would be different. To use your keyboard example, each key sends it's own programed pulse but used in different combinations they spell different words.
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pinksharkmark
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #78 on: Jul 9th, 2002, 11:46am » |
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on Jul 7th, 2002, 8:45am, Bob P wrote:| I'm thinking the psiocin actives certain 5HT subtype receptors which control vasoconstriction which stopps the headache. Perhaps these agonists have a real long halflife which makes the effect last so long. |
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Perhaps. Yet all current knowledge shows there are no traces of psilocin (or any known metabolites of psilocin) left anywhere in the body less than 24 hours after ingestion. The vasoconstrictive properties of the psychedelics might explain why they can stop an ongoing headache in its tracks, but not how they can terminate an entire CH cycle.
Quote:| In fact there are many different serotonin subtype sites and therefore amny different combination could be acivated at the same time cause many different signals to be sent. |
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Agreed.
Quote:| But it still remains that a receptor site only sends it's singal. An A site sends and A signal. A B site sends a B signal. Activate them both and you get an AB signal much like Pinkys explination of the various keyboard pulses. |
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Perhaps. In the interest of trying to be non-technical, I may have ended up being TOO non-technical in my original explanation. It is known that psilocin binds to several (possibly ALL) subtypes of 5-HT receptors. Normally each subtype of receptors will be activated only when the brain CHOOSES to activate that subtype, i.e. when a given dendrite opposite from a given receptor is instructed to release a packet of serotonin molecules, which then cross the synaptic gap, are captured by the receptor, and destroyed or recycled as you described in your previous post.
But the molecules of psilocin aren't created and destroyed in a controlled manner at all, they are floating freely throughout the entire area, attaching themselves willy-nilly to any handy receptor they stumble across. Further, they appear not to be subject to the same rules of destruction and/or reuptake as are serotonin molecules -- that is to say they are not a "one-shot" event in the same way a normal serotonin packet is. So there is nothing to prevent them from binding, being released, then binding again over and over until the body eventually eliminates them.
Whether the effect is caused by a single subtype of receptor or a combination of subtypes, the principle I was trying to express is the same. The signal(s) sent to whatever part of the brain is responsible for interpreting them as sensations is different when the triggering molecules involved are psilocin rather than serotonin.
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scottie
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #79 on: Jul 16th, 2002, 7:44pm » |
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Hello all,
Here is a quick update. I am still Pain free and Med free. 
I dosed on 5-29. Had 2 shadows on 5-30. Went pain free until 6-3 and then had 2 HA but they were tolerable. I have been pain free since. That is 43 completely Pain Fucking Free days. The beast can kiss my ass. Beast bring it on. Do your worst. I fear the dance no more because I have found his Kryptonite and kicked his teeth in. To quote a great line from a recent movie, "You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting."  Take that. 
Sorry about losing my mind there for a minute. I just felt that I had to let that out. To everyone else out there, Much Love to you All.
Scottie
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dannyboy
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #80 on: Jul 19th, 2002, 5:44am » |
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Damn I love this neighbourhood
The last page of this thread must be the Most Informative (pinky and Boob), Absolutely the Side Splittingly Funniest (Mister O'Connor) and Completely the most Wildly Inspirational (Scottie) reading I've done in years ... bravo! Encore!!
... Hey Mutha Fuckers ... welcome to ch.com!!!!!!!!!!
Newbyboy
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| « Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2002, 5:56am by dannyboy » |
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steColor
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #81 on: Jul 19th, 2002, 3:47pm » |
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Hey Scottie!!
RIGHT FRIGGIN ON!!!!......I am now shopping for a cape and super man like outfit for you with a big M on it. Any color preferences? or the standard super hero red color.
You definitely have this thing whipped.
PFDAN Dude !!!
STEC
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scottie
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #82 on: Jul 30th, 2002, 7:30pm » |
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Hey fellow fungus heads. Just a quick update that I remain pain free and just to prove it, for those of you that don't know, My wife and I went clubhopping on Sat and I had 3 shots of cuervo, a couple of brewskis and about two or three rum and cokes. The only thing that I didn't test is red wine, but you can bet that will be next. Oh to answer your next question, I was as screwed up as a "football bat". but still PF. Thanks to all of the supporters out there and to those who came before me in this treatment my hat is off to you. Later.
Slammy get out of the gutter and STFU  
Scottie
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gtarman
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #83 on: Jul 31st, 2002, 10:49am » |
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All I can say is, I can't wait to jump on the Shroomwagon. When I'm home, I check on my terrarium every 30 minutes as if they're gonna jump out the cake and wave at me.
Scotty, do you know how long it's been since I went out ANYWHERE? All I do is go to work, struggle thru 8 hours, then go home and sit on the couch holding my head in my hands, hoping my eyes don't blow outta my face.
I looked thru Pinky's list of meds that effect shrooming and did not see Verapamil. I'm on approx 400 mg's a day, no other meds. How long do I need to detox before shrooming? It'll probably be several weeks before my crop is in (come on lil fellers, GROW) but I wanna do this right from the gitgo.
Also, any more feedback on that post about Magnesium and Potassium?
A-Cult-ing we will go! Timothy Leary is NOT dead!
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Slammy
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #84 on: Jul 31st, 2002, 11:28am » |
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WTG Scottie!
Glad to see you and Kristi getting out and rockin!
Isn't it great to get hammered and not worry about a CH? 
BTW... O2 is great to burn off a hangover! 
Silly Silly Scottie! Don't ya know?
You can take Slammy out of the gutter, but you can't take the gutter out of Slammy!! STFU!!!!
Slammy
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That's it! Everyone out of the pool!
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rick
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #85 on: Jul 31st, 2002, 12:47pm » |
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Gtarman,
From Pink's Important Notes on Mushroom Therapy:
"Finally, there are the Calcium Channel Blockers. The most popular CCB used by clusterheads is verapamil. We have received reports of clusterheads achieving complete success with psilocybin while taking verapamil. I have also seen reports from chronics whose only medication at the time of their psilocybin trials was verapamil, who failed to get any significant relief. Was this lack of success due to interaction with verapamil? I don't know. I am open to argument on this one.
Verapamil does act on a certain subgroup of serotonin receptors, but it appears not to be the same subgroup that psilocybin and LSD act on. For the moment, I will tentatively classify the CCBs as a category of medications that may not completely block the action of psilocybin, at least for some individuals. I reserve the right to change that opinion as more data becomes available."
And two quotes from Flash from the same thread:
"Detox from everything. OR wait until your next episode."
"Lets face it, very few of the conventional treatments are worth taking. In most cases we are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Trust me the headaches are actually more bearable without any medication. The years I have tried medication other than hallucinogens my episode has stretched from 1 month to 2 months.
I agree with pinky that O2 is the least likely to affect hallucinogens, but I'd draw the line at pretty much everything else - that includes analgesics... those will only exacerbate the condition."
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| « Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2002, 12:48pm by rick » |
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rick
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #86 on: Jul 31st, 2002, 1:04pm » |
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on Jul 31st, 2002, 10:49am, gtarman wrote:
Scotty, do you know how long it's been since I went out ANYWHERE? All I do is go to work, struggle thru 8 hours, then go home and sit on the couch holding my head in my hands, hoping my eyes don't blow outta my face.
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G-
If this is the case, is the Verapamil really making any difference in your condition, other than making you tired? In addition to draining my bank account a little more, that's about all it did for me. I blacked out on it once. Verapamil made me feel weak and tired, which in turn made the attacks harder to deal with. I realise some sufferers have had excellent results with it, but I unfortunately was not one of them. How long have you been taking it and what dosage are on?
I don't want to see you go to all the trouble of producing, only to have negative results without a "pure" trial run. Again, this is only my opinion, but I put a lot of stake in what Flash has to say since he has been treating himself this way longer than anyone. Also, when I began my therapy, I was not fully detoxed, and I only saw partial relief in the beginning (I was on Depakote, Doxepin, and had just finished a cycle of Prednisone).
Peace,
-R
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gtarman
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #87 on: Jul 31st, 2002, 3:45pm » |
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Rick-
About the first of July the beast started kicking it up a few notches. I had a bottle of Vera from last year that I hadnt given much of a shot, so I started taking 270mgs daily, and after 4-5 days I noticed a definate drop in intensity (it's systemic so it takes awhile to kick in) so I've stayed on it. But as I've said before, the beast rises and falls as it pleases so it's damn hard to tell what's working and what ain't. However, the last couple days it's started increasing again, so I went to the Dr this morn (he knows doodlysquat about CH) and got him to up my dose to 400mgs. We'll see what develops.
In any event, I'll definately take Flash's advice and come off it completely before dosing. I'm probably 3-4 weeks away from harvest & drying, if all goes well.
Did you see that post about magnesium and potassium? Wonder if there's anything to that?
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BobG
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Re: New Shroomer - results so far
« Reply #88 on: Aug 4th, 2002, 1:34pm » |
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The magnesium and potassium stuff should be moved over to Roger's restless leg post.
But, since those posts have nothing to do with cluster headaches, maybe the whole string should be deleted.
Just my opinion, and I'm sticking to it
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