Author |
Topic: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 1 (Read 39023 times) |
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender: 
Posts: 201
|
 |
Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 1
« on: Feb 14th, 2002, 11:50am » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Bob Wold recently posted an update on the treatment of his cluster headaches with psilocybin, in the form of "magic mushrooms".
http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/134515.html
From some of the responses to his post, it is apparent that there is still some confusion regarding the proper use of this therapy. I posted a reply clarifying things. This is a repost of that reply.
After reading some of the spectacular success stories that many have reported from a single small dose of psilocybin (or LSD), it is easy to lose sight of the fact that psilocybin is just another medication, and in order to successfully treat cluster headaches with psilocybin certain rules must be followed, just as is the case with all medications.
According to the reports posted on this message board, the majority of those who have had success with psilocybin mushrooms obtained complete and lasting relief from a single small dose. But that doesn't guarantee that every clusterhead on the planet will get the same results from a single dose. Some (such as Bob Wold) required more than one dose to achieve complete remission.
It is also true that many have gotten complete relief with very low amounts, barely enough to notice any effects at all, much less any psychoactive effects. But others have required larger amounts, sometimes bordering on what is considered a "recreational" dose.
A few have achieved no relief at all, regardless of the dosage and the frequency of ingestion.
Just as with any other medication, it is essential to refrain from taking medications that interfere with the action of psilocybin. This is not always easy to accomplish. Many "blocking" drugs are known and have been listed here on numerous occasions. But there are medications commonly taken by clusterheads whose interaction with psilocybin is still unknown. Some may intensify the effect, others may block it, still others may have no effect one way or the other. As more reports are received, more medications to be avoided will be identified.
Note that the above statements apply to every other preventative medication in the clusterhead arsenal. Let's use Verapamil, the "gold standard" of CH preventatives, as an example.
Verapamil can be effective in doses ranging from roughly 240 mg per day to a maximum of 960 mg per day. So, just like psilocybin, the effective dosage varies from person to person. For a few people, the effects of Verapamil are noticeable within a few days of starting treatment. For the majority, however, a week or two of daily (sometimes increasing) doses is required for the medication to start working. So again, just like psilocybin, some people require more doses than others do before the medication starts to take effect. For a sizeable percentage of people (roughly 30% according to available studies) Verapamil has no effect on their CH at all. And, just like psilocybin, there are other medications that cannot be taken while on Verapamil.
I could repeat the above paragraph many more times, substituting for Verapamil any other preventative medication currently used for treating cluster headaches.
But the most interesting thing that differentiates psilocybin (and LSD) from other CH medications is that it does not just abort a single attack (like Imitrex, Cafergot, or oxygen), and it also does not just prevent an attack from occuring as long as serum levels are high enough (like Sansert, Verapamil, Lithium, Prednisone, Depakote, Neurontin, Topamax, et al), but it actually terminates the entire CH "cycle" for an extended period of time -- long after all traces of it have vanished from the body. In the case of some chronics this period may be as short as two weeks. In the case of episodics, this period may be as long as a year.
The only other treatments I know of that will produce an actual termination of a CH cycle are prednisone (rarely), DHE injections (occasionally) and intravenous magnesium (occasionally).
In your own case, Bob P, you did everything correctly for at least the first dose of psilocybin. That first dose didn't terminate your cycle, and the attacks were getting more severe, so you (understandably) started a course of prednisone, knowing that it had helped you in the past. It is possible that the prednisone blocked the action of the subsequent doses of psilocybin. It is also possible that you are an individual for whom psilocybin is ineffective, prednisone or no prednisone, just as I am an individual for whom Verapamil is ineffective. There is no way of knowing for sure which is the case.
Part 2 to follow
|
| « Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2002, 3:34pm by pinksharkmark » |
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 2
« Reply #1 on: Feb 14th, 2002, 12:21pm » |
Quote Modify
|
...continued
As more reports are received, some facts are becoming apparent:
1) The most effective use of psilocybin is as a prophylactic. If taken before a CH cycle is due to start, the cycle will not start. This of course is an option not available to chronic clusterheads.
2) The second most effective use of psilocybin is to take it at the very beginning of a cycle, before the cycle is firmly established, and while the individual is still free of other medications. Again, an option for episodic clusterheads only.
3) Once a cycle is firmly established, it may be necessary to take higher initial doses, and more than one dose may be required to terminate the cycle. This is the case with many chronic clusterheads, and with some episodics. These are also the cases where the factor of interactions with other medications become problematical. It is a rare chronic indeed who is completely free of preventative medications, and any episodic who has made it to this stage of a cycle with no medication at all has my utmost respect.
4) It is impossible to determine precisely how large the first dose of mushrooms should be for any given individual. It's not as if psilocybin is available in pill form containing a known number of milligrams... we are dealing with a natural substance that is subject to the vagaries of nature. The psilocybin content of each batch of mushrooms will vary, sometimes substantially. And, just as with Verapamil or Lithium or Topamax or any other medication, the sensitivity to psilocybin varies from one individual to another. The amount required for subsequent doses becomes much easier to determine, but for the first dose many individuals are (understandably) choosing to underdose.
Anyone who is considering this treatment must accept the possibility that two or even more doses may be required. It is also possible that some individuals may have to put up with some short-lived (a few hours) psychoactive side effects in order to achieve success.
There is an equivalent of the "Kip Scale" that is commonly accepted by "recreational" users to measure the effects of a dose of mushrooms:
Level 1
This level produces a mild "stoning" effect, with some visual enhancement (i.e. brighter colors, etc). Some short term memory anomalies. Left/right brain communication changes causing music to sound "wider".
Level 2
Brighter colors, and some subtle visual anomalies (i.e. objects appear to slightly shift position or "breathe" , some 2 dimensional patterns become apparent upon shutting eyes. Confused or reminiscent thoughts. Change of short term memory leads to distractive thought patterns. Vast increase in creativity becomes apparent as the natural brain filter is bypassed.
Level 3
Very obvious visual distortions: everything looking curved and/or warped, patterns and kaleidoscopes seen on walls, faces etc. Some mild hallucinations such as rivers flowing in wood grained or "mother of pearl" surfaces. Closed eye images become 3 dimensional. There is some confusion of the senses (i.e. seeing sounds as colors, etc). Time distortions and "moments of eternity".
Level 4
Strong hallucinations, i.e. objects morphing into other objects. Destruction or multiple splitting of the ego. (Things start talking to you, or you find that you are feeling contradictory things simultaneously). Some loss of reality. Time becomes meaningless. Out of body experiences and e.s.p. type phenomena. Blending of the senses.
Level 5
Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego. Merging with space, other objects, or the universe. The loss of reality becomes so severe that it defies explanation. The earlier levels are relatively easy to explain in terms of measureable changes in perception and thought patterns. This level is different in that the actual universe within which things are normally perceived ceases to exist. Satori enlightenment (and other such labels).
Most episodic clusterheads will need to achieve somewhere around a Level 1 or Level 1.5 experience in order to terminate their cycle. A few episodics have had success at even lower levels, but a few have had to reach Level 2.
Most chronic clusterheads will need to take enough to achieve a Level 1.5 or Level 2 experience. In particularly stubborn cases, even higher doses may be required. CarlD, for example, reported a few months of painfree time after reaching (from his brief description) Level 3.
more to come...
|
| « Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2002, 1:28pm by pinksharkmark » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 3
« Reply #2 on: Feb 14th, 2002, 1:24pm » |
Quote Modify
|
...continued
Despite the fact that there is considerable variability in both mushroom potency and individual sensitivity to psilocybin, some rough guidelines have emerged that give some help in determining how large the first dose of mushrooms should be.
It should be noted that unlike alcohol, the effects of psilocybin (or LSD) seem not to be dependent on an individual's weight or percentage of body fat. This makes our task somewhat easier.
Almost all "black market" mushrooms being sold today are of the species Psilocybe cubensis. In Europe this species is sometimes called Stropharia cubensis. The main reason why they are so popular is that Psilocybe cubensis is extremely easy to cultivate indoors. Recent developments in home cultivation methods have made it something that an eight year old child could do with no difficulty. There are other species which may sometimes be encountered on the black market that are more potent than Psilocybe cubensis, but it is rare indeed that they become available. Clusterheads who grow their own are all growing Psilocybe cubensis, so I will discuss dosage levels for that species only.
Even when discussing a single species, there are many factors that determine the potency of a given batch of a mushrooms, not all of which are under the control of the cultivator, so bear in mind that the figures given below are only guidelines, and not cast in stone. Your mileage may vary.
All the doses given below are expressed by weight, in grams (1.0 gram = 1000 milligrams) because it is impossible to correctly measure a dose of Psilocybe cubensis in terms of the number of mushrooms. Individual dried mushrooms can weigh as little as 20 milligrams, and as much as 2.5 grams. The only way to accurately measure a dose is by weight. The numbers I give are also for thoroughly dried mushrooms -- "cracker-dry" is the term most often used. They should be crisp and will snap and crumble easily. If they are leathery and "bendable", they must be further dried before weighing, or the dose will be effectively smaller than it should be due to excess water content.
For the average individual who is completely free of all other medications which may interfere with the action of psilocybin, it will be necessary to take 1.0 to 1.5 grams of thoroughly dried Psilocybe cubensis of average potency in order to achieve a Level 1 experience.
For a Level 2 experience, somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 grams is normally required. For Level 3, a dose of roughly 3.5 grams or more will be required. From the reports we have seen so far from numerous clusterheads, it does not seem that reaching levels higher than Level 3 gives any additional benefit.
I must repeat that there may be the occasional individual who is exceptionally susceptible to psilocybin who has obtained an exceptionally potent batch of mushrooms and takes 1.0 gram, yet reaches as much as a Level 2 experience. On the other hand, there may be another individual who is exceptionally resistant to psilocybin who has obtained an exceptionally weak batch of mushrooms and takes 3.5 grams, only to barely reach Level 1. Neither case is the norm, but neither case is unheard of, either, particularly the latter.
The final factor that will influence the effect of a given dose of psilocybin (or LSD) is interaction with other medications. This is an area where we are still learning, but some interactions are well-known and will be discussed next.
...to be continued
|
| « Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2002, 11:31pm by pinksharkmark » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 4
« Reply #3 on: Feb 14th, 2002, 3:27pm » |
Quote Modify
|
...continued
When it comes to interactions with other medications, we are faced with a significant challenge. Virtually all clinical research into the effects of psilocybin and LSD ceased in the early 1970's, when they were criminalized in the United States. In theory it is still possible to obtain a research license allowing experimentation with these and other Schedule 1 compounds, but in practice the complexity and inertia of the governmental approval process is so overwhelming that very few researchers have the stamina to see it through to the end. As a result, there are few studies to refer to regarding interaction with drugs in existence before 1971, and no clinical information at all on drugs developed since then.
However, there are some medications which are known to reduce or eliminate entirely the effectiveness of psilocybin (and LSD).
1) All ergot compounds, such as ergotamine, Sansert (methysergide), cafergot, DHE 45 (di-hydro ergotamine), methergine, to name the ones most commonly used in treating CH.
2) First-generation anti-psychotics such as Thorazine.
3) Opiates and synthetic opiates, such as codeine, oxycontin, heroin, morphine, tramadol, methadone, demerol, laudanum, opium, and others. It is still unclear whether these compounds will reduce the effectiveness of psilocybin in treating cluster headaches, but it is well known that opiate addicts get less "high" on mushrooms and LSD than non-addicts will.
There are also medications that will increase the effects of psilocybin (and LSD):
1) A class of compounds known as MAOIs (monoamine oxydase inhibitors). There are few MAOIs being prescribed today. Most have been replaced by newer-generation compounds, but there are still a few in use, mainly for psychiatric conditions.
2) Lithium. Lithium has the same effect as an MAOI. It has been reported by several "recreational" users of psilocybin and LSD that Lithium will roughly double the psychoactive effects of a given dose of psilocybin (or LSD). It is unclear whether it will also double the CH-fighting properties, but we have one report from a clusterhead who deliberately took some Lithium immediately before ingesting mushrooms and had a much more intense experience for a few hours than he had bargained for. In his case, the psilocybin also killed the headaches, but it is probable that he would have achieved the same relief with less stress.
3) Dissociative anesthetics such as ketamine, PCP (phencyclidine) and DXM (dextromethorphan).
There are medications that we suspect will interfere with the action of psilocybin (or LSD):
1) Any of the triptans, such as Imitrex, Amerge, Zomig, Maxalt. These compounds are chemically quite similar to psilocybin. For example, Imitrex (sumatriptan) is basically sulfonated DMT (di-methyl tryptamine) while psilocybin is phosphorylated DMT.
2) Any of various serotonergic medications classified as SSRIs (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) and Tri-Cyclic antidepressants. This covers a number of medications sometimes used to treat CH: amitryptaline and nortryptaline, Zyprexa (olanzapine), Depakote (divalproex sodium), to name a few
There are some medications which may interfere with psilocybin (and LSD):
1) anti-convulsants or anti-epileptic medications such as Neurontin (gabapentin) and Topamax (topiramate). The exact mechanism by which topiramate works, for example, is still unknown, so it is impossible to even guess whether or not it will interfere with psilocybin.
2) medications which are either synthetic analogs of certain hormones or which regulate hormone production: Prednisone and Synthroid, for example. There is no direct evidence to suggest that these drugs will interact with psilocybin, but hormones have a very complex and inter-related effect on numerous body systems. We have seen a few reports on this message board suggesting that thyroid levels play a part in cluster headaches.
3) tranquilizers and mood-altering medications such as Xanax, Valium, Prozac and Wellbutrin.
There are medications which will probably not interfere with the actions of psilocybin:
1) antibiotics
2) NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) such as tylenol (acetaminophen), aspirin, ibuprofen, Vioxx (rofecoxib), etc.
3) antacids and anti-ulcer medications
4) asthma medications
5) insulin
It must be noted that the above category reflects my personal opinions. I have seen no reports of interactions with these medications, and I suspect that the mechanisms by which these medications act is too different from the action by which psilocybin and LSD work for there to be any significant interaction, but I wouldn't want to bet my life's savings on it.
...still more to come
|
| « Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2002, 11:34pm by pinksharkmark » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 5
« Reply #4 on: Feb 14th, 2002, 4:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
...continued
Finally, there are the Calcium Channel Blockers. The most popular CCB used by clusterheads is verapamil. We have received reports of clusterheads achieving complete success with psilocybin while taking verapamil. I have also seen reports from chronics whose only medication at the time of their psilocybin trials was verapamil, who failed to get any significant relief. Was this lack of success due to interaction with verapamil? I don't know. I am open to argument on this one.
Verapamil does act on a certain subgroup of serotonin receptors, but it appears not to be the same subgroup that psilocybin and LSD act on. For the moment, I will tentatively classify the CCBs as a category of medications that may not completely block the action of psilocybin, at least for some individuals. I reserve the right to change that opinion as more data becomes available.
There is one more interaction that must be taken into consideration... the self-limiting factor of psilocybin and LSD themselves. This well-documented but still unexplained property of these substances is the reason why consecutive doses must be taken at well-spaced intervals, rather than day after day. It is also why psilocybin and LSD are classified as "counter-addictive". Flash calls this self-limiting process "shutting the door".
One of the first things that a molecule of psilocin (psilocybin is converted into psilocin as soon as it enters the bloodstream. It is actually psilocin that produces the effect, not psilocybin) will do when it nestles snuggly into its chosen synaptic cleft is to trigger a reaction in the receptor site that "shuts the door" behind it. Not only does the door shut on the sites that contain psilocin molecules already, but on all other sites anywhere in the brain that are capable of accepting similar molecules. This process is not instantaneous, but it does take place fairly rapidly... maybe over twenty minutes or half an hour or so.
This is why dosing with mushrooms or LSD is an "all or nothing" thing. With alcohol or marijuana, if you think you are not yet where you want to be, you can have another beer or another joint, and another and another. But psilocybin and LSD take time to produce their full effect... sometimes as much as an hour or even longer from the time you take them till the time they start to work. By the time you discover that you have underdosed, it is too late to do anything about it. You will have to wait until next time around to adjust the dose. If you take some more immediately, it is a complete waste of medicine, since by the time the new batch of molecules make it to your brain, all the doors are firmly shut.
These doors remain shut until all the molecules of psilocin or LSD have broken down (around 12 to 20 hours) and then the doors gradually start to re-open. This is why veteran "acidheads" back in the 1960s would only dose once a week or so. Some individuals can dose with only a three day break, others need as much as week. A good compromise for clusterheads is about five days.
This door-shutting mechanism precludes the use of any other hallucinogen for that given period of time. That is to say, if you take some mushrooms Friday night, then take some LSD on Saturday night, the LSD will have no effect at all. Methysergide (Sansert) and other ergot compounds such as ergotamine and di-hydro ergotamine (DHE) will also shut the door. Due to the marked similarity between the various triptans (Imitrex, Amerge, etc.) and psilocybin, it is likely that they will also shut the door for at least as long as they remain in the body, and probably for some period of time after that.
Bottom line... it is essential to wait 4 or 5 days between mushroom doses, and to avoid all other known "blocking" medications during that time as well.
In conclusion, I would like to point out that although psilocybin has by far the highest reported success rate of any preventative medication we currently know of, we do still get reports of occasional failures. Since we are unlikely to see any clinical study of psilocybin and cluster headaches in the near future, our only source of data is from the reports of those who have tried it.
I urge everyone who has tried this therapy, successfully or not, whether with psilocybin or LSD or some other psychoactive substance, to post their stories here, giving as much detail as possible, particularly in regards to other medications being used at the same time. If you wish to retain your anonymity, post under a different name, or send your report directly to me so I can repost it as an "anonymous" report from "Patient X". I have no doubt that once we have a better grasp of which medications do in fact reduce the effects of these substances, the success rate will be even higher.
For all those who have tried this therapy and reported their experiences, especially Flash, the man who got the ball rolling with his first post back in 1998, and Ueli, who painstakingly compiled all these reports from the CH.com message board and archived them here (see "Message Board Posts")...
http://www.a-dzign.com/shrooms/
...my sincerest thanks. Thanks as well to all those who created and contributed to the page linked above. And, to all those who have read this series of posts from start to finish, I thank you for your patience.
pinky
|
| « Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2002, 9:45am by pinksharkmark » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Ike
Guest
|
 |
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #5 on: Feb 14th, 2002, 8:51pm » |
Quote Modify
 Remove
|
 You da' man!!
Thanks Pinky.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Monique
New Board Junior
Farm Fresh!
Gender: 
Posts: 84
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #6 on: Feb 15th, 2002, 9:25pm » |
Quote Modify
|
;D
Between you and Flash there is a mountain of information available already and what you have just written here, in between writting back to me with all my dumb questions... WOW, you are amazing! You should compile it all and write a book and sell it in the OUCH store.
Thanks Pinky. Especially for all your help today.
THE NEW SHROOM FARMER! 
|
|
IP Logged |
Deep Breath And Go On.......
|
|
|
August
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #7 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 2:49am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Thanks Pinky for giving your time to putting this out for everyone!
Good work,
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Becca
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 25
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #8 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 8:11am » |
Quote Modify
|
Wow! Thanks for the enlightenment - this will definitely put us off the mushroom course, I think!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Margi
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Nuthin like a good neck rub!
Gender:
Posts: 3757
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #9 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 8:53am » |
Quote Modify
|
I don't understand your post, Becca. WHY would all this that Pinky has said, put you off the mushroom course? It's the treatment that has the highest success to date. I'm confused... 
|
|
IP Logged |
http://askusaboutourgrandkids.photosite.com/
And, on the Eighth Day...God created Beer (to stop the Canadians from taking over the world)
source unknown
IMHO (which in my universe is correct)
kathy copelin, ch.com 8/8/06
|
|
|
Becca
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 25
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #10 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 10:17am » |
Quote Modify
|
Well, I can't speak for anyone but me, and I don't have the cluster headaches, at least not first-handedly, in this family. If my Clusterhead ever feels like trying mushroom therapy I would probably not argue with him about it.
Its the "mushroom Kip scale" that made me squeamish! Those don't appeal to me as positive effects.
So far, he has yet to try the conventional and clinically approved stuff. Bill's been getting through his attacks all these years with very little assist from doctors or pharmacy. He's pretty conservative, and a bit of a stoic. It's only been recently that he would wake me up or even mention the attack in the morning, and he has yet to miss a day of work after one. I have sometimes wondered if a tendency toward being a "work-a-holic" is common in CHers?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Margi
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Nuthin like a good neck rub!
Gender:
Posts: 3757
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #11 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 10:45am » |
Quote Modify
|
Yeah, I think the workaholic syndrome comes from the fact that attacks quite often happen upon relaxation.
And, just a word to the shroom fears...my hubby has used this treatment effectively a few times and the side-effects were quite negligible. They seem to need very little of the substance in their systems to make a difference. Plus, any side effects that did hit were gone in less than six hours. Way less worrisome than the
side effects of some of the legal drugs, if you ask me.
Imitrex, although it does abort some attacks for Mike, causes his heart to beat faster and it caused a heart attack for Monique's hubby. The list of long-term side effects from some of these meds is WAY scarier than the temporary feeling the mushrooms produce, in my opinion. But this treatment plan IS definitely a personal and moral choice that is your husband's and yours alone to make.
|
|
IP Logged |
http://askusaboutourgrandkids.photosite.com/
And, on the Eighth Day...God created Beer (to stop the Canadians from taking over the world)
source unknown
IMHO (which in my universe is correct)
kathy copelin, ch.com 8/8/06
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Dosage and effects
« Reply #12 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 1:13pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Feb 20th, 2002, 8:11am, Becca wrote:| Wow! Thanks for the enlightenment - this will definitely put us off the mushroom course, I think! |
|
As I said at the very beginning, psilocybin is no different from any other medication. The larger the dose, the more noticeable the side effects. At least with psilocybin the "overdose" will not be fatal.
I was very careful to indicate the approximate level that most people need to reach in order to terminate a cycle. I was also careful to state that there seems to be no additional benefit in reaching the higher levels.
Taking a gram and a half of Psilocybe cubensis and spending a few hours listening to some good music is no more distressing than having a few beers and watching a football game.
The difference between taking 1.5 grams of mushrooms and taking 10 or 12 grams of mushrooms is like the difference between sipping a glass of wine and chugging a bottle and a half of overproof rum. I certainly would never recommend EITHER course of action.
pinky
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
sjoerd
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #13 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 3:19pm » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Hi Pinky,
Thanks for your important notes on the shrooms therapy. As you know I was till last summer a chronic clusterhead, with about 8 attacks per day.
Thanks to the shrooms I don't know wether I am chronic or episodic. I use mushrooms once in three or four weeks. I need about 4 mgrs to get to level 2, sometimes a bit of 3. I don't know why but I have to get each time a little bit more to reach the same level.
After I used the shrooms there are about four or five days in which I have a small attack. Mostly at the end of the day, 6 or 7 pm. Than I am for more than a week, sometimes 2 weeks completely painfree (I am medicinefree from last year may) In week 3 or 4 there are coming shadows and after one severe attack (8 to 10 scale) I am on shrooms again. I tried to lower the dose, but that didn't work. I hope one day I also don't have to use the shrooms, but this mushroom therapy worked for me the best so far and I thank you and Flash for all your good work.
This this therapy also work for migraine sufferers?
Thanks
Sjoerd
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Margi
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Nuthin like a good neck rub!
Gender:
Posts: 3757
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #14 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 4:08pm » |
Quote Modify
|
actually, Sjoerd, the answer is 'yes' to your migraine question. Just the simple act of grinding up the tea for my husband has caused my own migraine symptoms to go into remission - now for almost 5 months. I didn't even drink any of it - just absorbed it through my fingertips. Just made me a little queasy for about half an hour and a slightly strange feeling, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I felt those symptoms coming back.
|
|
IP Logged |
http://askusaboutourgrandkids.photosite.com/
And, on the Eighth Day...God created Beer (to stop the Canadians from taking over the world)
source unknown
IMHO (which in my universe is correct)
kathy copelin, ch.com 8/8/06
|
|
|
Margi
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Nuthin like a good neck rub!
Gender:
Posts: 3757
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #15 on: Feb 20th, 2002, 4:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
actually, Sjoerd, the answer is 'yes' to your migraine question. Just the simple act of grinding up the tea for my husband has caused my own migraine symptoms to go into remission - now for almost 5 months. I didn't even drink any of it - just absorbed it through my fingertips. Just made me a little queasy for about half an hour and a slightly strange feeling, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I felt those symptoms coming back.
|
|
IP Logged |
http://askusaboutourgrandkids.photosite.com/
And, on the Eighth Day...God created Beer (to stop the Canadians from taking over the world)
source unknown
IMHO (which in my universe is correct)
kathy copelin, ch.com 8/8/06
|
|
|
nancyc
New Board Old Timer
Friends don't let friends post drunk on mbs......
Gender:
Posts: 384
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #16 on: Feb 21st, 2002, 10:39pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Excellent post, Pink! You know I believe in the shrooms...all this info will be very helpful to anyone thinking about trying this treatment....Thanks for all your work...you are the best...smiles,nancyc
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Elissa
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #17 on: Mar 17th, 2002, 8:24am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Pinky, I read your article and WOW..tons of info. I used the shrooms when I lived overseas (purely recretational of course!) and I know the affects of them, but I don't understand, if this treatment seems to work so well for people, why isn't it approved? There are so many other drugs out there that are legal and have horrible side effects and you have to get your liver and all tested to make sure that isn't damaged...but the natural stuff they won't approve. (is it me?!) I think I will hang onto this and start my own little "garden". When I'm ready I may need some help so I'll be posting. Thanks again, you and the others put a lot of work into this....the one person was right, you should write a book! Hell, at lest make some money off of the damn headaches! ELissa
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #18 on: Mar 17th, 2002, 7:15pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 17th, 2002, 8:24am, Elissa wrote:| Pinky, I read your article and WOW..tons of info. I used the shrooms when I lived overseas (purely recretational of course!) and I know the affects of them, but I don't understand, if this treatment seems to work so well for people, why isn't it approved? There are so many other drugs out there that are legal and have horrible side effects and you have to get your liver and all tested to make sure that isn't damaged...but the natural stuff they won't approve. (is it me?!) |
|
The DEA added LSD and psilocybin to the list of "Schedule 1 Controlled Substances" for reasons of their own. No one has been able to explain why. The definition of a Schedule 1 substance (I may have a word or two misplaced here, but the sense is accurate) is "one for which there is no known medical application and which exhibits a high potential for abuse.
Observe that the DEA ignored the numerous studies done showing LSD is effective in treating migraines, and other studies showing its value in the field of psychiatry for various conditions such as alcohol addiction, obssessive-compulsive disorder, and bi-polar disorder, as well as social problems such as criminal recidivism.
Also observe that virtually every paper published on LSD and psilocybin emphasizes their unique properties of cross-tolerance and self-limitation -- the well-known fact that if you take one one day, taking one the next day produces no effect or very little effect. A "recharging" period of several days or a week is required between doses. This attribute is one that makes them unlikely candidates for "abuse", whatever THAT may be.
My personal opinion is that even if we were somehow able to persuade clinicians or pharmaceutical companies to perform extensive studies on the use of LSD and psilocybin for treating cluster headaches, the DEA would not budge. These drugs would STILL not be available via prescription. My basis for this opinion is their incredibly pig-headed attitude towards marijuana, despite the overwhelming evidence that for many medical conditions (not cluster headaches, though) marijuana IS of medical benefit -- in fact, for some conditions it is the ONLY known medication that provides relief.
Dr. Alexander Shulgin is perhaps the most knowledgeable authority on the psychedelics on the planet. He has synthesized and tested almost two hundred different psychoactive compounds. Here is what he has to say on the War on Drugs:
http://www.theantidrug.org/advice/shulginuniv.html
It is a fairly long speech, but well worth reading. Right at the end he reads a letter from a young writer that I found eloquent, logical, and irrefutable:
Is it any wonder that laws prohibiting the use of psychoactive drugs have been traditionally ignored? The monstrous ego (or stupidity!) of a person or group of persons, to believe that they or anyone else have the right, or the jurisdiction, to police the inside of my body, or my mind!
It is, in fact, so monstrous a wrong that, were it not so sad indeed, tragic!—it might be humorous.
All societies must, it seems, have a structure of laws, of orderly rules and regulations. Only the most hard-core, fanatical anarchist would argue that point. But I, as a responsible, adult human being, will never concede the power, to anyone, to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inward is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the Customs Agent. I am the Coast Guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual Government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable!!!
Now, were I to be guilty of invading or sabotaging that same territory in others, then the external law of the Nation has every right—indeed, the responsibility—to prosecute me in the agreed-upon manner.
But what I think? Where I focus my awareness? What biochemical reactions I choose to cause within the territorial boundaries of my own skin are not subject to the beliefs, morals, laws or preferences of any other person!
I am a sovereign state, and I feel that my borders are far more sacred than the politically drawn boundaries of any country.
*****************************************************
Note that this young man is defending his use of these substances strictly on moral grounds, not out of medical necessity. How much more impact would these words have if spoken by a clusterhead?
I only wish I had said it first.
pinky
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
justin
New Board Veteran
what it is...
Gender:
Posts: 211
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #19 on: Mar 18th, 2002, 3:14pm » |
Quote Modify
|
well i went to amsterdam and tried the shrooms. i tried about a little more than a quarter dose of the mexican variety. to be honest i really do not enjoy the effects. it was somewhere between a level one and level 2 high. i am just not a drug person i guess. i get really anxious and nervous and just don't like feeling out of control. i'm pretty sure i won't do it again. anyway..the headaches. well here's the problem - after two weeks of non stop attacks , 2 a day. i went to amsterdam and decided to lower my verapamil a bit. i was taking 480mg a day and droped down to 320mg. i just didn't like the side effects (dizy, etc.) so anyway, ididn't get an attack the next two days. so then i did the shrooms my last day because i figured i wouldn't get another opportunity. well no headaches since. but it's only been a day. just won't really be able to tell if it was the change in verapamil or the shrooms. guess i'm no help...sorry. but thanks for all the advice. glad i tried it once.
jd
|
|
IP Logged |
if any clusterheads in NYC want to get together shoot me an email justinott@mac.com
|
|
|
rick
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 568
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #20 on: Mar 18th, 2002, 8:37pm » |
Quote Modify
|
My first post on this site. I would like to start by thanking pinksharkmark for doing the homework and taking the time to put all this info together. I just had a couple of questions, answers to either of them would be appreciated: When consuming the mushrooms, is it better to make them into tea or does it make a difference how you take them? If I am able to reach "level one" while on depakote or doxepin, can I assume that these drugs are not interfering with the beneficial effects of the shrooms?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Lee
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #21 on: Mar 19th, 2002, 1:10am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Bob Wold and I go way back, B-4 ch.com was conceived. Bob is an expert in this subject and I agree with most of his thoughts. I have done the acid deal and it doe's work for a while, but like any thing else we try it's the same story.
Let us find an answer, permanent that is, without gun powder.
Lee
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pinksharkmark
New Board Veteran
Clusterhead
Gender:
Posts: 201
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #22 on: Mar 19th, 2002, 1:43am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 18th, 2002, 8:37pm, rick wrote:| When consuming the mushrooms, is it better to make them into tea or does it make a difference how you take them? |
|
Many people feel that the heat involved in making the tea destroys some of the psilocybin/psilocin in the mushrooms being used, making it necessary to start with a bit more mushrooms in order to compensate for the loss. Others say it makes no difference whatsoever. There are two reasons why some prefer tea:
1) The mushrooms have a rather unpleasant taste. The tea will have a less strong taste to it than the mushrooms themselves do.
2) A small minority of users find that the mushrooms produce mild gastric distress, gas, and even nausea. These effects are minimized if the psilocybin is taken as a tea rather than eating the entire mushroom.
Most people just dice up the dried mushrooms into fairly small pieces and toss them in a blender with some orange juice or cranberry juice to make a mushroom "smoothie". If you prefer to make tea, check this link:
http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/110213.html
Quote:| If I am able to reach "level one" while on depakote or doxepin, can I assume that these drugs are not interfering with the beneficial effects of the shrooms? |
|
Very astute question. I no of know one who can answer it with confidence.
Before we get into that, however, let's address a couple of points.
1) You will be more likely to have success if you reach a "Level 1.5" to "Level 2" experience. It is true that some have had spectacular success at Level 1, (and a few at even LESS than that) but the majority seem to have better luck with slightly higher doses.
2) How big a dose is required to reach "Level 1" while on those meds? If it takes just 1.0 or 1.5 grams, it is pretty safe to assume that the meds are not blocking the effects. But if it takes 6 or 8 grams to reach that level, you can be certain that there is some interaction going on there.
From the experiences of our intrepid experimenters, it is clear that the "higher" one gets (up to a point) from the psilocybin/psilocin, the more likely it is that the treatment will be successful. This would SEEM to indicate that one of the side-effects of the "high" is that it kills the cluster cycle. Therefore, it would appear sensible to conclude that if a medication blocks the psychoactive effects, it will also block the "cluster-busting" effects.
But is that necessarily what is happening? Is it possible the two effects are separate aspects of the same chemical?
It is known that the psychedelics work on more than one subgroup of 5-HT receptors. Is it possible that one subclass of those receptor sites mediates the psychedelic response, with a different subclass mediating the cluster-buster response? I don't know. IF this is in fact the case, then it stands to reason that some medications MIGHT block one subgroup, but not the other.
So, it is not unreasonable to speculate that some meds might allow you to get "high" while leaving the CH untouched, while other meds might block the psychedelic effects completely, yet the still stop the CH dead in its tracks.
My opinion is that the 5-HT receptors that produce the "high" when influenced by psilocybin are the same ones that tell the hypothalamus to "reset" itself and stop the CH cycle. But I will freely admit that my opinion may be proven incorrect.
This is the reason I have always recommended that those wishing to try psilocybin/psilocin or LSD should try to be as free as possible from ALL medications that are either known to inhibit the psychoactive effects or are strongly suspected of doing so -- we simply don't have enough information available to us to be able to say with certainty what all the possible permutations of the various interactions might be.
I realize this presents some experimenters with a difficult choice: try to make it through several days of unmedicated attacks in the hopes that the psilocybin will work, or continue with the medications and hope those meds won't destroy the chance of the psilocybin working.
For a clusterhead whose current meds are useless or just barely effective, the choice is pretty easy -- stop the meds and try the shrooms. What have you got to lose? For an episodic whose current meds are working just fine, the choice is also easy -- ride out the cycle on the current meds and try the mushrooms at the first warning signs of the next cycle, or even earlier.
But not all situations are as clear cut as the above two examples. What should a chronic (who can't really wait for the next cycle because life is one long cycle) do, for example, or an episodic who is getting partial relief from some meds, or someone who is getting pain relief from an existing medication, but at the cost of some pretty heavy side effects?
If we KNEW the mushrooms would work for every single individual who was in the middle of a cycle but 100% med free, it would be easier to say to people in the above situations, "Hang tough! It might be a rough few days but it will be worth it." But we DON'T know that. I, for example, am a complete wimp when it comes to these things. I honestly don't know if I could go four or five days at the peak of my cycle (4 to 5 CH per day at Kip 7 - 9) without reaching for a Fiorinal or an Imitrex, even I KNEW WITH CERTAINTY that the mushrooms would end my cyle.
pinky
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Flash
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #23 on: Mar 19th, 2002, 8:05am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
The way I see it in straightforward terms:
If two medications both affect CH, then the chances are that they will also affect each other, albeit only slightly.
I concur with pinky that:
If the existing meds aren't helping then stop taking the meds for a week then ingest the hallucinogen. Otherwise it is best to ride out the current episode and then ingest shrooms prior to the next episode.
Don't get sucked into does or doesn't it react... the bottom line is that we don't know, and probably never will. In most cases it probably does react in some way.
Also, it is important to understand that hallucinogens are not a complimentary therapy. People will stick with pred or O2 for weeks or months on end even though they aren't working. By the same token those people will make a single half assed attempt at hallucinogens then coming back moaning that they didn't work!
Anyone planning to take hallucinogens:
1) Read EVERYTHING.
2) Ask questions regarding anything that isn't clear. The advice we give now differs from what we would have said 4 years ago because we are better informed.
3) Prior planning. Get hold of enough shrooms for 5 clear goes.
4) Detox from everything. OR wait until your next episode.
5) Do them exactly as described - do not restart any other medication during this period, be warned the process may take anything up to a month especially for chronics, although most people get relief from a single dose.
6) Be aware that things occasionally get worse before they get better.
Flash
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Flash
Guest
|
|
Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
« Reply #24 on: Mar 19th, 2002, 8:09am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
The way I see it in straightforward terms:
If two medications both affect CH, then the chances are that they will also affect each other, albeit only slightly.
I concur with pinky that:
If the existing meds aren't helping then stop taking the meds for a week then ingest the hallucinogen. Otherwise it is best to ride out the current episode and then ingest shrooms prior to the next episode.
Don't get sucked into does or doesn't it react... the bottom line is that we don't know, and probably never will. In most cases it probably does react in some way.
Also, it is important to understand that hallucinogens are not a complimentary therapy. People will stick with pred or O2 for weeks or months on end even though they aren't working. By the same token those people will make a single half assed attempt at hallucinogens then coming back moaning that they didn't work!
Anyone planning to take hallucinogens:
1) Read EVERYTHING.
2) Ask questions regarding anything that isn't clear. The advice we give now differs from what we would have said 4 years ago because we are better informed.
3) Prior planning. Get hold of enough shrooms for 5 clear goes.
4) Detox from everything. OR wait until your next episode.
5) Do them exactly as described - do not restart any other medication during this period, be warned the process may take anything up to a month especially for chronics, although most people get relief from a single dose.
6) Be aware that things occasionally get worse before they get better.
Flash
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Member Map
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print
test rss