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Topic: Lithium ? (Read 2656 times) |
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hornedone
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Question for those taking Lithium. I am currently taking a preventive combo of Lithium & Klonopin. Working pretty well so far...well except for one thing. Once the combo starts to wear off (taking it 3 times a day), I start to get very angry/aggressive.
Have anybody ever dealt with this? And if so any suggestions?
Really need some help here...the wife thinks I'm going to end up hurting someone. But since the Topamax is no longer effective, and since this is working relatively well (70% or so)...I really don't want to be taken off this, which i suppose could happen if i mention it to my doc.
btw...this combo is allowing (so far) for some good painfree sleep.
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nani
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #1 on: Dec 2nd, 2007, 2:10am » |
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I wish I could offer some help. 
I remember reading about this effect before, but I have no personal experience. I didn't tolerate lithium very well, so I never went beyond 300mgs a day. I suspect you're taking more than that, right?
Hopefully someone who can actually help will be along...
Glad you're getting some pf sleep, anyway. 
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #2 on: Dec 2nd, 2007, 2:19am » |
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on Dec 2nd, 2007, 1:36am, hornedone wrote:Working pretty well so far...well except for one thing. Once the combo starts to wear off (taking it 3 times a day), I start to get very angry/aggressive.
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You should discuss this with your doc.
How long have you been taking it? Sometimes these types of side effects will stop after you've been on it for awhile.
It could be possible to change the change your dosing regimen and take the same amount in 4 doses rather than 3 whilch might stop the ups and downs due to it wearing off.
Maybe you could try using melatonin at night to get the same sleep results.
Bobw
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hornedone
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #3 on: Dec 2nd, 2007, 2:28am » |
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I'll check and see if I can do 4 doses instead of 3. Thanks for the tip!
btw - I am currently on 900mg of Lithium and 3mg of Klonopin.
As for the melatonin...for me it really wasn't ever that effective. Well...I take that back, it was in the beginning, but it wore off pretty quickly (couple of weeks).
Another bad thing (minor) with this combo is that i am always hungry...and I am not the type that can afford the extra poundage. 
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Damon
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #4 on: Dec 3rd, 2007, 2:42am » |
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I have been taking 900mg of Lithium for about a year and a half now, combined with 480mg of Verap and 1500mgs of Depakote. The only time I ever had anger issues like you describe was when I took Topamax three to four years ago. I hope the Dr. had you slowly step up to the three times a day.
Luck be with you
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Guiseppi
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #5 on: Dec 3rd, 2007, 10:39am » |
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I'm 47, male and weigh about 190. I do 1200 mg a day of lithium when on cycle. I've never had those effects either going up, on, or coming off. Prednisone has make me a bit of a prick but that's only when I was on it for a long period of time, about 6 months. (I know, bad bad idea I had lots of friends hording it for me, I will eventually pay a price for that I'm sure!)
I put on 5-10 pounds when I'm on a long cycle, over 3 months, as the lithium does seem to make me hungrier all the time and a whisker lethargic.
Guiseppi
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rbmb
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #6 on: Dec 3rd, 2007, 2:40pm » |
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I've used lithium for headaches and never noticed any side effects involving mood changes but prednisone definately made me edgy and quick to lose my temper at high doses(80mg I think was the max dosage I took).
Rich
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Brew
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #7 on: Dec 3rd, 2007, 4:11pm » |
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Lithium = nothing.
Prednisone = Just try whining within 20 yards of me...I'll rip off your head and shit down your neck.
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hornedone
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #8 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 12:15am » |
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Wonder if it's the Klonopin then? 
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Annette
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #9 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 1:02am » |
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My husband was on Lithium 900 mg for a while. It didnt work for his CH so it was stopped but the only side effect he got at 900 mg was hand tremor.
It could be Klonopin. Klonopin is clonazepam which is a powerful benzodiazepine similar to Valium, Xanax etc. It used as an anticonvulsant as well as antianxiety medication. Its supposed to reduce anxiety and panic attacks. However, it can cause paradoxical reactions in some people with irritation and even anger and rage.
This is a list of its possible side effects:
The most frequently occurring side effects of Klonopin are referable to CNS depression. Experience in treatment of seizures has shown that drowsiness has occurred in approximately 50% of patients and ataxia in approximately 30%. In some cases, these may diminish with time; behavior problems have been noted in approximately 25% of patients. Others, listed by system, are:
Neurologic: Abnormal eye movements, aphonia, choreiform movements, coma, diplopia, dysarthria, dysdiadochokinesis, “glassy-eyed” appearance, headache, hemiparesis, hypotonia, nystagmus, respiratory depression, slurred speech, tremor, vertigo
Psychiatric: Confusion, depression, amnesia, hallucinations, hysteria, increased libido, insomnia, psychosis, suicidal attempt (the behavior effects are more likely to occur in patients with a history of psychiatric disturbances). The following paradoxical reactions have been observed: excitability, irritability, aggressive behavior, agitation, nervousness, hostility, anxiety, sleep disturbances, nightmares and vivid dreams
Respiratory: Chest congestion, rhinorrhea, shortness of breath, hypersecretion in upper respiratory passages
Cardiovascular: Palpitations
Dermatologic: Hair loss, hirsutism, skin rash, ankle and facial edema
Gastrointestinal: Anorexia, coated tongue, constipation, diarrhea, dry mouth, encopresis, gastritis, increased appetite, nausea, sore gums
Genitourinary: Dysuria, enuresis, nocturia, urinary retention
Musculoskeletal: Muscle weakness, pains
Miscellaneous: Dehydration, general deterioration, fever, lymphadenopathy, weight loss or gain
Hematopoietic: Anemia, leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, eosinophilia
Hepatic: Hepatomegaly, transient elevations of serum transaminases and alkaline phosphatase
For more information read here
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/clonaz_ad.htm
You should talk to your doctor about it. He may be able to tweak the dosage/timing of the meds for you or he might decide to change it all together. Dont do anything without first checking with your doctor though.
Best wishes and painfree days and nights to you.
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Annette
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #10 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 1:19am » |
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I have to post this separately because the whole thing wouldnt fit into the same post.
These are the side effects of Lithium
The following reactions have been reported and appear to be related to serum lithium levels, including levels within the therapeutic range:
Neuromuscular/Central Nervous System: Tremor, muscle hyperirritability (fasciculations, twitching, clonic movements of whole limbs), hypertonicity, ataxia, choreo-athetotic movements, hyperactive deep tendon reflex, extrapyramidal symptoms including acute dystonia, cogwheel rigidity, blackout spells, epileptiform seizures, slurred speech, dizziness, vertigo, downbeat nystagmus, incontinence of urine or feces, somnolence, psychomotor retardation, restlessness, confusion, stupor, coma, tongue movements, tics, tinnitus, hallucinations, poor memory, slowed intellectual functioning, startled response, worsening of organic brain syndromes, myasthenia gravis (rarely).
Cardiovascular: Cardiac arrhythmia, hypotension, peripheral circulatory collapse, bradycardia, sinus node dysfunction with severe bradycardia (which may result in syncope).
Gastrointestinal: Anorexia, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, gastritis, salivary gland swelling, abdominal pain, excessive salivation, flatulence, indigestion.
Genitourinary: Glycosuria, decreased creatinine clearance, albuminuria, oliguria, and symptoms of nephrogenic diabetes insipidus including polyuria, thirst and polydipsia.
Dermatologic: Drying and thinning of hair, alopecia, anesthesia of skin, acne, chronic folliculitis, xerosis cutis, psoriasis or its exacerbation, generalized pruritus with or without rash, cutaneous ulcers, angioedema.
Autonomic: Blurred vision, dry mouth, impotence/sexual dysfunction.
Thyroid Abnormalities: Euthyroid goiter and/or hypothyroidism (including myxedema) accompanied by lower T3 and T4. I131 uptake may be elevated. (See PRECAUTIONS.) Paradoxically, rare cases of hyperthyroidism have been reported.
EEG Changes: Diffuse slowing, widening of the frequency spectrum, potentiation and disorganization of background rhythm.
EKG Changes: Reversible flattening, isoelectricity or inversion of T-waves. Miscellaneous: Fatigue, lethargy, transient scotomata, exophthalmos, dehydration, weight loss, leukocytosis, headache, transient hyperglycemia, hypercalcemia, hyperparathyroidism, excessive weight gain, edematous swelling of ankles or wrists, metallic taste, dysgeusia/taste distortion, salty taste, thirst, swollen lips, tightness in chest, swollen and/or painful joints, fever, polyarthralgia, dental caries.
Some reports of nephrogenic diabetes insipidus, hyperparathyroidism, and hypothyroidism which persist after lithium discontinuation have been received.
A few reports have been received of the development of painful discoloration of fingers and toes and coldness of the extremities within one day of the starting of treatment with lithium. The mechanism through which these symptoms (resembling Raynaud's syndrome) developed is not known. Recovery followed discontinuance.
Cases of pseudotumor cerebri (increased intracranial pressure and papilledema) have been reported with lithium use. If undetected, this condition may result in enlargement of the blind spot, constriction of visual fields, and eventual blindness due to optic atrophy. Lithium should be discontinued, if clinically possible, if this syndrome occurs.
For more information read here
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/lithium_ad.htm
As you can see, comparing the two, I would say its more likely to be the Klonopin than the Lithium, despite what Nani and Pinkfloyd said.
Still, I urge you to talk to your doctor and dont do anything without his approval. Your treating doctor is the one ultimately responsible for your health.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2007, 1:21am by Annette » |
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LeLimey
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #11 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 6:36am » |
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Wow that was interesting about the hyperparathyroidism but since I stopped taking Lithium 2 years before the PTH problems came to light I don't think I can blame it!
I have a general question about Lithium though while the subject is up.
I have a very close friend who is manic depressive and is on Lithium to stop his mood swings. He is stable now and all is well but he used to go from being so laid back he could fall over to being really quite frighteningly angry.
I took lithium for CH but it didn't seem to have any effects for me good or bad so we gave up on that idea but it made me wonder - if Lithium is prescribed for CH (for which it isn't really intended) and it's usually prescribed for mood swings (to simplify what I mean) could it CAUSE them in someone who hadn't previously had them?
I ask this because I remember when I was on topiramate that I read if you didn't taper off it properly it could cause the seizures it was designed to prevent!
Scary drugs we take!
Probably a good time to remind everyone ANYWAY that you should always taper up and down on any drugs under your doctors supervision and if you aren't sure - ASK!!
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Annette
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #12 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 8:16am » |
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Helen, not sure who were you asking but I will give this a go.
Topiramate when stopped suddenly can lead to seizure due to the withdrawal effects of dropping the dose too quickly, not because it CAUSES you to get epilepsy/seizure.
Topiramate reduces the excitability of your nerves, therefore it reduces seizure. Once you have been on it for a while, your nerves reset themselves to this new level of activities. When you stop suddenly, the nerves and the brain dont have enough time to adjust to the new level of excitability therefore they can start firing abnormally, giving you what is called pseudoseizures. However, it doesnt mean that you have suddenly developed epilepsy. Once the level stablelises and your body adjusts itself you will be fine.
As to your friend who is manic depressive ie bipolar, I would say his anger is related to his illness rather than the lithium he was taking. Lithium is a very good drug for mania in bipolar but its not by any mean able to control all the symptoms of bipolar.
Regarding whether giving a certain medication to someone who doesnt really have the problem, or for what its intended for, whether or not it can cause the person to actually develop those symptoms is an interesting question. Personally I dont think so but I have not studied into this topic.
Just from observation though, if we apply your theory to 2 people here who take Lithium on a regular basis, namely Jonny and Guiseppi, then maybe it can be true for Jonny ( that would explain his moods  Sorry Jonny, just pulling ya legs ! ) but what about Guiseppi ? I would fall over in shock if I ever come across an angry/aggressive Guiseppi .
While we are at it, why dont we go a bit further and have some fun here? So what would happen if you take shrooms or seeds for CH while you dont really have CH ? Would that cause you to then develop headaches similar to CH or Hortons syndromes ? According to Helen's theory you might ! Does that mean if you use shrooms or seeds recreationally for a while when you stop you may develop CH ? I dont have the answers to those questions and I dont think anyone does, as of present.
Very interesting thought though Helen, thanks for making me think 
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pattik
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #13 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 8:52am » |
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on Dec 4th, 2007, 8:16am, Annette wrote:
While we are at it, why dont we go a bit further and have some fun here? So what would happen if you take shrooms or seeds for CH while you dont really have CH ? Would that cause you to then develop headaches similar to CH or Hortons syndromes ? According to Helen's theory you might ! Does that mean if you use shrooms or seeds recreationally for a while when you stop you may develop CH ? I dont have the answers to those questions and I dont think anyone does, as of present. |
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While we are at it, why don't we stay on topic for a change instead of throwing out bait to get people stirred up on a topic to which you are clueless.
As to the lithium, when I took it years ago, it just gave me tremors with no noticable help for CH, and no significant mood issues that I can recall.
Patti
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Annette
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #14 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 8:56am » |
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on Dec 4th, 2007, 8:52am, pattik wrote:
While we are at it, why don't we stay on topic for a change instead of throwing out bait to get people stirred up on a topic to which you are clueless.
Patti |
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Indeed I am clueless about that topic so I am hoping that the experts will come along to help clarifying things so that we can all learn
Do you, per chance, have the answers to those questions?
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LeLimey
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #15 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 9:54am » |
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Thank you for answering Annette, I asked simply because it was something that occured to me just based on reading that topiramate is supposed to stop siezures but could cause them if mis-used - not necessarily permanently, that I have no clue about - it was just something that occured to me. I explained my point badly because I did actually mean it in the way you described so thank you for clarifying that.
My friends anger is absolutely caused by his illness, it comes back (as does the other end of the spectrum) if he reduces his dose or doesn't take it or whatever. Basically, he knows now to take it and thats that. Lithium HELPS him, it doesn't cause him any mood problems.
The subject was just one I find quite interesting in a very uninfomed sort of a way, for instance I have just finished a course of tablets that according to the leaflet can cause a type of meningitis! I realise that's really rare but it obviously has happend for it to be printed and its why I do read those drug leaflets. We come up with all sorts of things to go off at a tangeant with here when all's said and done!
Your theory is like the bipolar version of mine  but it's exactly the same question on the other hand too - can misuse of meds cause other conditions? Obviously the answer to that is yes to a degree - think Pred and AVN for instance.
I don't think taking them could cause the condition they were being created for if used for something different but I do think it can cause the "symptoms" as in the case of topiramate for a perfect example.
Just to throw another thought of mine into the mix. I was on Pred at between 60 and 80mg per day for 13 months and I was switched overnight to a different steroid. Two days later my CH started and I've been chronic ever since. I don't think it caused it for one minute. I now know I had cycles every spring and autumn since Barney was born but wasn't diagnosed (own fault) I think the Pred triggered my "cycle" into coming early but I know it didn't cause me to have CH.
I don't think anything could actually cause CH if you aren't pre-conditioned to having it but hasn't it been proved that some drugs can cause mental health issues?
I'm not sure which ones (issues) but I'm absolutely certain I read something about that in a newspaper a while ago.
I'm sorry if I'm not explaining myself well, I'm very fuzzy at the moment
Helen
edited for clarity
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| « Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2007, 9:57am by LeLimey » |
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Kevin_M
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #16 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 10:32am » |
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on Dec 4th, 2007, 8:16am, Annette wrote:
would... shrooms...
...cause you to then develop headaches similar to CH or Hortons syndromes ? |
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It has not seemed so from shrooms or other hallucinogenics with many others encountered from the 70's through 90's. Being just me that I knew of afflicted from among them and after that time. CH appears more a predisposition, or even possibly perhaps otherly acquired if it could be enabled.
from a small world
in fact, changing lifestyles was when I first encountered CH.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2007, 11:18am by Kevin_M » |
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sandie99
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #17 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 10:36am » |
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This thread reminded of quite interesting discovery from my own ch meds experience: when I was taking prednisone I bought from Finland, I was feeling happy and bit manic. Doc perscribed me some more and I got that in London - that pred made me deeply sad, even slightly depressed. "Same" med, complitely different mood...
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #18 on: Dec 4th, 2007, 6:01pm » |
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on Dec 4th, 2007, 1:19am, Annette wrote:As you can see, comparing the two, I would say its more likely to be the Klonopin than the Lithium, despite what Nani and Pinkfloyd said.
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What exactly did I say, that what you posted, refuted?
He shouldn't discuss this with his doctor?
Changing his dosing regimen might not help? Was that what RxList said?
The symptoms may not wear off over time?
If I gave some bad advice, please tell me what it was so I can offer better advice in the future.
Bobw
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rolo65
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Lithium does even you out. If you were to make a scale say 1-9 then 5 would be the mid point.
So now say if you’re Bi-Polar you may swing in mood from 1-9 or 2-8 so it is a big swing. If you are normal (so to say) you may swing only from 4-6. The lithium is going to center you towards 5 and if you don’t naturally swing far from the center you may not notice the centering effect vary much.
I do notice that I feel happier if I stop taking it until the K-8 hits come back in about two days.
Rolo….
Edit cause I said the same thing twice.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2007, 8:29pm by rolo65 » |
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Annette
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #20 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 5:45am » |
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To Pinkfloyd
What exactly did I say, that what you posted, refuted?
Please see below
He shouldn't discuss this with his doctor?
No, I agree he should discuss with his doctor, I said so myself, didnt you see it?
Changing his dosing regimen might not help? Was that what RxList said?
The point here is that its very unlikely that Lithium is causing the anger/aggression, its much more likely to be the Klonopin. Therefore changing the dosing regimen of Lithium is least likely to help.
Furthermore if you think changing the dosing regimen helps means that you believe the individual dosage is too high, leading to withdrawal symptoms. This is not the case here.
Lithium is a drug that has a therapeutic level, he would have had blood tests to check the level, therefore the 900 mg a day would have been within therapeutic range, since he is stable on this dosage, unless the total dose is changed, the level wont change.
He is taking it 3 times a day ie 300 mg each time, then changing it from 3 times to 4 times a day wont change the overall level but will reduce each individual dosage from 300 mg to 225 mg. Do you really think that a drop of 75 mg would make a real difference to the withdrawal level ? No it wont.
We dont even know whether he is taking the slow release or the immediate release version of lithium. If he is taking the slow release version then changing it from 3 times a day to 4 times a day wont change anything. If he is taking the immediate release version then how do you suggest he split the tablets to get 225 mg ?
The symptoms may not wear off over time?
You have got to see how severe the symptoms are here. He is saying that he gets VERY angry/aggressive, to the degree that his wife is concerned that he will end up hurting someone. Now this is not a mild side effect. These are MAJOR side effects that NEED to be addressed NOW with his doctors. What if he waits around hoping that the symptoms may wear off and they dont and he ends up hurting someone?
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LindaM
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #21 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 9:15am » |
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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LeLimey
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #22 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 9:42am » |
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on Dec 5th, 2007, 9:15am, LindaM wrote:| ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
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Which reminds me of a Lisa Simpson quote.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be THOUGHT an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt.
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nani
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #23 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 10:49am » |
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on Dec 4th, 2007, 1:19am, Annette wrote: despite what Nani and Pinkfloyd said.
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Are you suggesting that I never read about it?
Well, I have. On this board. I just can't remember exactly when.
I suppose I could have googled this, found RX list, copied and pasted it here, and tried to sound like an expert...
but that's not my thing.
Well, wait...not exactly...when your very first post asked about your DH's unusual symptoms, I was concerned enough to google BAM and give you the link. 
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deltadarlin
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Re: Lithium ?
« Reply #24 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 7:52pm » |
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I don't understand, exactly what did nani and pink floyd say that was so contradictory to what you said annette? hurting heads want to know.
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If it weren't for the gutter, y mind would be homeless.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v123/tribander_3/
You pretend to pay me, I pretend to work.
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test rss