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peacestock
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Something I have tried...
« on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:14pm » |
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I tried posting this before, but my fingers hit a bunch of buttons and it disappeared. If you get a message from me, just ignore it!
I have tried Cranio sacral (sp?) twice now, with two different therapists. This is when they touch you and "read" your vibrations to "talk" to your body and find out what is wrong. I know it sounds wacky, but, hey, during a cycle I will try anything.
Both of the therapists said that each side of my brain (the energy, that is) was rotating in different directions and this is what was causing my CH. I still have no idea what use that information is, but there you have it. Counter-rotating brain energy.
Either that or the hypothalamus thing. Or the eyebrow thing. I still think we have to all get research grants and just pick a theory.
Peacestock
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Jonny
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #1 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:27pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 4:14pm, peacestock wrote:
Both of the therapists said that each side of my brain (the energy, that is) was rotating in different directions and this is what was causing my CH. |
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LMMFAO!!!!! 
Thats a new one on me and ive been here everyday since 1999....LMAO 
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Brew
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #2 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:31pm » |
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It depends whether your brain is north or south of the equator. The old cyclone/anticyclone thing.
Now, if you could position the center of your head directly on the equator you might be able to stop the voices inside.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #3 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:36pm » |
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yup, sounds wacky. i read up on craniosacral therapy, and then i stopped reading. jonny, maybe you could get paid for simply waving the welding rod over the metal, not actually welding but in effect sensing the energy which is part of the metal and the rod, and then letting them know that they are congruous, and ship it to the customer. yup, wacky.
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peacestock
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #4 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:42pm » |
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Rofl! *snort!*
I really gotta try the equator thing. Great excuse for a trip. I wonder if I go to Australia if my head will hurt on the other side....hmmmm... At least that would even out my lopesided eyebrows.
Peacestock
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #5 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 4:43pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 4:14pm, peacestock wrote:they touch you and "read" your vibrations to "talk" to your body and find out what is wrong.
try anything. |
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"Anything" seems to encompass a huge arena it seems, lots of times, out of the ballpark.
Quote:| Both of the therapists said... |
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I would have never guessed there could be more than one. In the anything world though...
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Margi
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #6 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 5:41pm » |
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Interesting. I have a childhood friend who has become a cranial sacral therapist here in Calgary. I wonder if it's the same gal? If so, I know her very well and trust her implicity. I even took my daughter to her years ago and, honest to God, she did "cure" her problem at the time. I did talk to her about cluster and she said she'd try to help my hubby but didn't think she would be able to do much, since it is widely believed to be a physical birth defect of sorts, rather than an energy problem. We never did pursue it.
My friend's first name is Katie and she lived just off Centre Street North. Is she one of the therapists you went to? There's a lot to be said for cranial sacral therapy, I think - and I find that fascinating about the energy observation. You don't mention if you were able to find any relief - I assume not?
Every little thing we learn about cluster helps in the long run to understanding it all and, hopefully, will someday lead us to a cure. I'm sure once the scientists in this crowd get ahold of this observation they will run with it.....Floridian? LeeS? BobP? Pinkfloyd? Anyone?
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #7 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 6:16pm » |
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I must have been hasty in believing the opinion of the British Columbia Office of Health Technology Assessment (BCOHTA) and their 68 page report.
Quote:| In 1999, after doing a comprehensive review of published studies, the British Columbia Office of Health Technology Assessment (BCOHTA) concluded that the theory is invalid and that practitioners cannot reliably measure what they claim to be modifying.The 68-page report concludes that "there is insufficient evidence to recommend craniosacral therapy to patients, practitioners, or third party payers." [15] |
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and also:
Quote:In 2002, two basic science professors at the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine concluded:
Our own and previously published findings suggest that the proposed mechanism for cranial osteopathy is invalid and that interexaminer (and, therefore, diagnostic) reliability is approximately zero. Since no properly randomized, blinded, and placebo-controlled outcome studies have been published, we conclude that cranial osteopathy should be removed from curricula of colleges of osteopathic medicine and from osteopathic licensing examinations[10]. |
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Quote:The Scientific Viewpoint
I do not believe that craniosacral therapy has any therapeutic value. Its underlying theory is false because the bones of the skull fuse by the end of adolescence and no research has ever demonstrated that manual manipulation can move the individual cranial bones [10]. Nor do I believe that "the rhythms of the craniosacral system can be felt as clearly as the rhythms of the cardiovascular and respiratory systems," as is claimed by another Upledger Institute brochure [11]. The brain does pulsate, but this is exclusively related to the cardiovascular system [12], and no relationship between brain pulsation and general health has been demonstrated.
A few years ago, three physical therapists who examined the same 12 patients diagnosed significantly different "craniosacral rates," which is the expected outcome of measuring a nonexistent phenomenon [13]. Another study compared the "craniosacral rate" measured at the head and feet of 28 adults by two examiners and found that the results were highly inconsistent [14]. |
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further reading:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cranial.html
Although his brochures give a different opinion.
Today's leading proponent is John Upledger, DO, who operates the Upledger Institute of Palm Beach Gardens, Florida.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2007, 6:43pm by Kevin_M » |
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peacestock
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #8 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:06pm » |
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Geez, Kevin. Bet you are NO fun at all at parties. You must love pissing on parades, eh?
BTW, you haven't put any quotes from the number of studies they have done on the placebo effect that has actually produced positive outcomes. Or hypnosis, or "faith healing". All it takes for these things to work is a belief in it.
Margi - I don't remember her first name, but her last name was Mustard (like the condiment) and she is in Beddington. No, she didn't help at all, but I did feel things when she worked on me. She would touch my feet and my ears would burn. Crazy stuff. Very cool.
I believe strongly in the fact that if a person believes strongly enough in something, it will work. If you don't believe in it, you can disprove it. It's all mind over matter. Placebo studies have shown that time and again.
Peacestock
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Tara Ann
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #9 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:10pm » |
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Hah! I like that better than the constant insistance from my mother in law that I ALWAYS have a sinus infection. It's a more exotic explanation lol.
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #10 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:11pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 7:06pm, peacestock wrote:| BTW, you haven't put any quotes from the number of studies they have done on the placebo effect that has actually produced positive outcomes. Or hypnosis, or "faith healing". All it takes for these things to work is a belief in it. |
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I'm sure there are a huge amount of sites which cite John Upledger with which you will find consensus with.
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Jonny
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #11 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:18pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 7:06pm, peacestock wrote:
I believe strongly in the fact that if a person believes strongly enough in something, it will work. |
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ROTFF!!!!.....This thread just gets better....LMAO
Think your pain away?......LOL
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Salvelinus
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #12 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:21pm » |
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I'm a PT, and though I don't use it, I've worked with other therapists who use craniosacral therapy. I've also had it done on me, and believe it or not, it did give me my first remission in about 10 years of chronic clusters. Now, maybe my cycle was going to end anyway . . . I'll never know. I do know that a different therapist tried it on me during a later cycle and it did nothing.
I do want to clear something up, though. It isn't "brain energy" they are feeling, it is a supposed "flow of cerebrospinal fluid" which causes a rhythmic movement in the skull and spinal bones. I've never been able to felt it in others, but there have been a few times I've felt it in myself. It's a rhythm slower than my heartbeat, and faster than my breathing.
I've hard some amazing anecdotal evidence by therapists who I trust. I don't know of any empirical evidence out there (Kevin has shown some opinions, but I'd want to see the actual studies myself--not to discredit the authors of those opinions in any way), and like I said, I've never used it. But I know that there are a lot of interventions I use every day in my practice that WORK, but that don't have any evidence to back them up. We are trying to change that, but there are some things that will never be able to be studied scientifically due to the nature of the treatment, the nature of the disease, or to the need to just get our patients better rather than making them suffer any more.
Anyway, that's my take. 
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peacestock
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #13 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:26pm » |
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Yeah, yeah...ok, Jonny, point taken.
However, I do find some comfort in deep breathing (diaphramatic breathing) during a hit. I am dealing with easy k7 these days. Have had K10 that I would NEVER be able to breath through. I am lucky if I KEEP breathing.
Shoot, I would try a watermelon up my nose if someone said it MAY work. But probably not a pinapple up my ass...I have to draw the line somewhere!!
Peacestock
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #14 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 7:57pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 7:21pm, Salvelinus wrote:| (Kevin has shown some opinions, but I'd want to see the actual studies myself--not to discredit the authors of those opinions in any way), |
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I don't have the interest to pursue it further.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed &list_uids=9806622&dopt=Abstract
Quote:| CONCLUSION AND DISCUSSION: The results did not support the theories that underlie craniosacral therapy or claims that craniosacral motion can be palpated reliably. |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed &list_uids=2173359&dopt=Abstract
Quote:| the various bones making up the calvaria and base of the skull, which are solidly synostosed in the adult, are clearly incapable of the pretended rhythmic displacements "described" by the osteopaths. |
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http://www.chirobase.org/16Victims/gallagher.html
Barrett S. Bizarre therapy leads to patient's death. Chirobase, July 7, 2003.
Quote:The theory underlying craniosacral therapy is erroneous
In short, the theory and practice of cranial therapy and "correction of the meninges" have no basis in reality [9,10].
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And I suppose the 68 page report from British Columbia which concluded "invalid" was simply a batch of opinions, as well as the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine study and noted corraborated finded with previous studies.
Experiment with mind over matter on diareah.
John Upledger's Institute puts out a lot you can freely google, his literature may be best for agreeable opinions.
Being there is even mention of it applied to children with autism, I would highly suggest reading Simon Barron-Cohen's opinion first rather than John Upledger.
on Jan 9th, 2007, 7:06pm, peacestock wrote:| Geez, Kevin. Bet you are NO fun at all at parties. |
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If to you partying means your discussing this, then I guess no, since I wouldn't be able to get drunk enough, but maybe I'd be able to change the subject.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2007, 10:27pm by Kevin_M » |
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BlueMeanie
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #15 on: Jan 9th, 2007, 8:05pm » |
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peacestock
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #16 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 1:18am » |
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Kevin,
I don't doubt for a moment the validity of any number of papers written, lectures given, that state that craniosacral is bullshit. I am sure you could quote them all for hours. I am merely saying that for every person, paper, lecture, idea to disprove a theory, there is an equal number of people, papers, lectures and ideas to support it.
That is why I am neither impressed nor disappointed at any of the quotes you have provided. I think I would, however, be more interested in your opinion had you actually attempted such things yourself and not rely on someone else to tell you what to think.
Peacestock
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #17 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 1:55am » |
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Ok, I'll say a few words and some of you know how difficult THAT is for me.
1. Upledger is a danger to human health.
2. There is a debate as to whether or not there is actually a placebo effect when it concerns clusters. Some studies show there is no placebo effect in cluster trials. When testing new drugs, for instance, the placebo group often shows such a small "effective" outcome, that the number is assumed to be just that a few people went into remission during the treatment.
JMHO
Others claim there is a small placebo effect and double blind trials for clusters NEED to continue having a placebo arm.
Its still up in the air but I think that if anyone shows a placebo effect, they are in a very mild cycle and just the change of scenery, diet, travel, overall change in daily routine, change in regular medication regimen (stopping triptans to enter the trial, for example???) might give a few people a short break.
Add to that a couple spontaneous remissions and you have a placebo group.
3. Diaphramatic breathing is NOT a placebo and there are reasons that it can and does help.
4. I tried CS once. Not because I wanted to, or paid for it. I go for massage therapy for my back and hip. My therapist had just come back from a class on CS and wanted to try it on me....she was so excited, I said uuumm...ok)
I had a headache in 3 minutes.
5. I believe that most of the times we change to a new med, and we get excited because it seems to be "working" in the beginning...and then stops, (is there anyone here that hasn't experienced that?) that this is not a placebo effect, but the change in medication. Any change, that just takes some time for the body to get used to having it in the system and dealing with it....and then getting back to the task at hand.....of beating our heads in, from the inside out. I don't think those medications EVER had a direct effect on the clusters. They just had an brief effect on the overall neurological system. Sort of like throwing a steak into a pen of barking pit bulls. Once the steak is gone...look out, here they come again.
6. In case you've forgotten number 1.
Upledger is a danger to human health.
I knew I couldn't do just a few words..damn it.
Bobw
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #18 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 6:51am » |
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on Jan 10th, 2007, 1:18am, peacestock wrote:| I am merely saying that for every person, paper, lecture, idea to disprove a theory, there is an equal number of people, papers, lectures and ideas to support it. |
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I have been repeatedly referring to the many sites which quote from John Upledger, his book, and teachings.
Quote:| I think I would, however, be more interested in your opinion had you actually attempted such things yourself and not rely on someone else to tell you what to think. |
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Ok. I will say that Bob's point 5 was a thought which I would not have described as well but will assent being of a similar opinion concerning CH, of course inclusive the sentence regarding "direct effect on the clusters." That is why I would not have "attempted such things".
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2007, 6:59am by Kevin_M » |
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tommyD
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #19 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 7:07am » |
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Quote:| I am merely saying that for every person, paper, lecture, idea to disprove a theory, there is an equal number of people, papers, lectures and ideas to support it. |
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More rain on your parade, I’m afraid.
It is NOT true that for every paper against there is one for. This is the fallacy of “balance” that Fox News claims makes their news “fair.” But “balanced” is not the same as “objective” or “unbiased,” and it has nothing at all to do with “accurate.”
The “Hitler example,” for example. With the “balanced” philosophy, a supporter of Adolph Hitler could argue that his hero loved children, only wanted to conquer the world to save it, and would never kill all those millions in concentration camps, because that would be inefficient. And that Hitler lover’s lies would be given the same weight as a respected historian with a library full of evidence. (Actually, there IS evidence Hitler loved children, but that is irrelevant to the fact of the Holocaust.)
If there is an inconvenient truth, such as “CS therapy is not effective,” and a there is valid, peer-reviewed reseache showing that, then merely claiming that someone else says CS does work is not enough to claim it’s an open question.
Sometimes, of course, it might BE an open question. And this is why you see research papers that review a number of other research papers to determine a consensus or a valid non-consensus. Bullshit studies will often not survive this process, if they even get so far as to be included.
And of course, one must back up one’s statements - if there are an equal number in support, show us the citations.
Quote:| I think I would, however, be more interested in your opinion had you actually attempted such things yourself and not rely on someone else to tell you what to think. |
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You know, I have discovered the sun revolves around the Earth. It must! I don’t care what the science books say, I just saw it coming up over the horizon, flying east to west!
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pubgirl
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #20 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 7:48am » |
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Peacestock
I like the idea that my brain vibrates and that someone else can "feel" it and give me relief.
I like it....
But it's crap!
I also like the idea that you are still idealistic enough to think there is an easy, drug/substance free answer that we have all missed, however desperate or placebo susceptible we may be.
I like it....
But it's crap!
Sorry 
Wendy
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2007, 7:48am by pubgirl » |
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swimchica623
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #21 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 8:24am » |
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hey now give me a little credit i didnt say that fuzzy eyebrows CAUSED my CH i just said there was a bit more hair there coming out of a cycle than normal.....
but then we deduced that i was just getting in touch with my inner cragno-man.
and ooooomg how did it take me so long to realize there was someone with the username pinkfloyd on the board??? :-D
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Kevin_M
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #22 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 8:52am » |
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on Jan 9th, 2007, 7:06pm, peacestock wrote:| BTW, you haven't put any quotes from the number of studies they have done on the placebo effect that has actually produced positive outcomes. Or hypnosis, or "faith healing". All it takes for these things to work is a belief in it. |
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on Jan 10th, 2007, 1:18am, peacestock wrote:| I am merely saying that for every person, paper, lecture, idea to disprove a theory, there is an equal number of people, papers, lectures and ideas to support it. |
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I guess I didn't highlight quite enough for you, hoping you were actually reading the, as tommy put it, "inconvenient truth", but since you replied twice with the above quotes...
Quote:In 2002, two basic science professors at the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine concluded:
Our own and previously published findings suggest that the proposed mechanism for cranial osteopathy is invalid and that interexaminer (and, therefore, diagnostic) reliability is approximately zero. Since no properly randomized, blinded, and placebo-controlled outcome studies have been published, we conclude that cranial osteopathy should be removed from curricula of colleges of osteopathic medicine and from osteopathic licensing examinations[10]. |
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Feel free to ponder why that may be, the important point being the word "properly".
Whereas I noted 7 studies identifying claims of effectiveness, importantly, the review of "research quality" was an overriding factor, with comments particular to Upledger's findings stating "no method of statistical analysis to support his claim", "not repeated or confirmed by other researchers in 20 years."
on Jan 10th, 2007, 7:07am, tommyD wrote:| And of course, one must back up one's statements - if there are an equal number in support, show us the citations. |
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And there does not seem to be anywhere near an equal number in support, outside of Upledger's site.
Again, for simple agreement in thought, there are many, many sites, in fact, an "overbalanced" amount citing John Upledger that would be more suitable for continuing your parade, and the postpartying on the subject.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2007, 12:57pm by Kevin_M » |
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Brew
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #23 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 11:25am » |
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on Jan 10th, 2007, 8:24am, swimchica623 wrote:but then we deduced that i was just getting in touch with my inner cragno-man.
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That's cro-magnon, but I won't hold it against you as you haven't yet graduated.
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floridian
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Re: Something I have tried...
« Reply #24 on: Jan 10th, 2007, 1:30pm » |
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I have no experience with cranio-sacral therapies.
I don't trust quackwatch or their affiliated chirobase website. They argue that chiropractic has no value whatsoever, when a number of studies have found that chiropractic is an efficacious, reasonably safe, cost effective treatment for back and neck conditions.
Quackwatch is also virulently opposed to yoga, massage and other therapies which have proven themselves useful for some medical conditions - as witnessed in this point countrpoint that can be found on the quackwatch.
Quote:
CAM practices such as acupuncture, biofeedback, yoga, massage, and tai chi, as well as certain nutritional and stress reduction practices, may be useful in contributing to the achievement of the nation's health goals and objectives. [QuackWatch - This statement is an incredible bare-faced lie. Standard nutrition practices are central to public health goals. The rest of the items contribute nothing.] http://www.quackwatch.org/07PoliticalActivities/WHC/08.html
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Never mind the fact that yoga can help with back problems, blood pressure, and autonomic nervous problems - some yoga practices make references to 'chi' or 'prana' and other mumbo-jumbo, ergo, to QW they are anti-scientific. The fact that tai-chi has been shown to improve balance and exercise tolerance in the elderly can't possibly benefit health - they keep talking about chi, which is imaginary!!
In addition to getting caught up by any foreign language or metaphors, quackwatch tends to commit errors of faulty generalization - ie, the demonstratable fact that some alternative practioners are hucksters is extended to the entire group ... Of course, when it comes to incompetent doctors that cut off the wrong limb, no such errors are made ... Quackwatch believes that only a few doctors are incompetent, and the others do a good job of policing them.
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