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Topic: One by one... (Read 1720 times) |
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Paul98
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Your individual liberties are taken away. It is like very slowly turning up the heat to cook a live frog.
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As the left marches us toward the all encompassing nanny state of gov. reliance; they finger point to others that "shred" the Constitution. Two wrongs don't make a right...or a left!
Will there be anything left of the USA in 50 years? Will there be any personal choice left in life or will it be an ant colony?
-P.
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thomas
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #1 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:10am » |
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Gotta get as many of those kiddos into those publicly funded indoctrination centers, don't ya know?
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Paul98
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:10am, thomas wrote:| Gotta get as many of those kiddos into those publicly funded indoctrination centers, don't ya know? |
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Sadly that is what the US educational system has become. From Kindergarden to the universities. You had best repeat the mantra if you want a good grade! Non union? Don't expect a job teaching in the public school system. LOL.
That court ruling is some pretty scary shit if you ask me.
-P.
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deltadarlin
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #4 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:46am » |
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If this were any other state besides California, I'd be real worried (no slight to anyone living there). In Louisiana, homeschooling is fairly big and there are already regulations in place that apply to homeschooling.
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Brew
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #5 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:48am » |
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This is, plain and simple, union protectionism. When the state stands behind these kinds of tactics, it becomes, by definition, state sponsored protectionism.
Death by a thousand cuts, people.
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nani
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #6 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:56am » |
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Not all parents make good teachers. Sometimes, homeschooling is inadequate.
I know of a family of 12 kids, whose entire curriculum is based almost 100% on the bible.
I think the states should have some kind of oversight on these "schools" so the kids have a shot at a well rounded education.
Homeschooling isn't a bad thing... but I'm not sure it's the best thing.
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Brew
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #7 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:58am » |
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:56am, nani wrote:Not all parents make good teachers. Sometimes, homeschooling is inadequate.
I know of a family of 12 kids, whose entire curriculum is based almost 100% on the bible.
I think the states should have some kind of oversight on these "schools" so the kids have a shot at a well rounded education.
Homeschooling isn't a bad thing... but I'm not sure it's the best thing.
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Respectfully disagree. Parents should have the final say in how their children are educated. The state is not qualified to make that choice for me. This is about individual liberty.
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LeLimey
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #8 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 10:59am » |
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Just in the interest of debate and following on from Nani's point about the bible - how would that affect communities like the Amish?
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nani
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #9 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:08am » |
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I think the Bible (or any other holy books) have a place in religious education (which, BTW, I think should be taught in the public schools, covering ALL religions).
The Bible as world history is not really a good thing, IMO.
Brew, I don't really disagree... but I think there should some oversight as to what the child is being taught. ie: math, science, language arts, etc.
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Brew
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #10 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:14am » |
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:08am, nani wrote:I think the Bible (or any other holy books) have a place in religious education (which, BTW, I think should be taught in the public schools, covering ALL religions).
The Bible as world history is not really a good thing, IMO.
Brew, I don't really disagree... but I think there should some oversight as to what the child is being taught. ie: math, science, language arts, etc.
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Parents should be able to determine what is a good thing and what is not for their children. Educational content does not cross over into the realm of child abuse. It is a matter of them choosing what's right for their children. The state should have no say in that as it is not mentioned in the Constitution.
Call me old school. I happen to be a strict constructionist when it comes to the separation of government activity and my personal choice.
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PollyPocket
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #11 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:15am » |
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from the article:
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
ummm hello???!!! reading?? writing?? 'rithmatic??? science???? history???? wtf??????
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LeLimey
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #12 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:17am » |
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I agree about RE - it's only by learning about all religions and cultures we will combat stupid prejudice. My kids really enjoy that and I have to admit, I do too.
I wasn't meaning people SHOULD be able to give their kids such a limited education, rather that they shouldn't but from what I know of the Amish they school their kids themselves (albeit in a schoolroom) with a very limited curriculum and a much lower leaving age of 14.
Is that fair?
If one religious group can decide how to educate their kids to completely different standards to the rest of the country why shouldn't the family Nani was talkin about be able to do the same?
Why should the rights of larger groups outweigh the rights and choices of individual families?
I think what I'm asking is where do we draw the line and how should we decide that?
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nani
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #13 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:20am » |
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When do my rights as a parent interfere with my child's rights?
Not giving a child a good education is a violation of their rights, IMO. Not to say that all homeschools are inadequate...but some are.
For example: If I choose to let my child die to preserve my rights to religious freedom, have I not infringed on the child's right to medical care?
I guess a bigger issue is "Do children have any liberty?"
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thomas
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #14 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:23am » |
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:20am, nani wrote:When do my rights as a parent interfere with my child's rights?
Not giving a child a good education is a violation of their rights, IMO. Not to say that all homeschools are inadequate...but some are.
Not all public schools are even capable of that.
For example: If I choose to let my child die to preserve my rights to religious freedom, have I not infringed on the child's right to medical care?
I guess a bigger issue is "Do children have any liberty?"
Technically, not until they're 18, but there are laws to protect them.
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Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God, the numbers look the same on their credit cards. Triptans cause rebounds. Learn it, believe it, live it. I use triptans as the absolute LAST RESORT when treating my CH.
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Paul98
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:08am, nani wrote:I think the Bible (or any other holy books) have a place in religious education (which, BTW, I think should be taught in the public schools, covering ALL religions).
The Bible as world history is not really a good thing, IMO.
Brew, I don't really disagree... but I think there should some oversight as to what the child is being taught. ie: math, science, language arts, etc.
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I agree with you Nani. The public school system should teach about different religions as a means of broadining a childs horrizon. Any further specific religous education can be done at the parents expense and not the taxpayer.
I think that most states do have some means of checks on home schooling and if a child is to be home schooled they have to meet minimum requirments of education. If a parent wishes to home school and fails to meet minimum requirments than I think the state does have a right to see that the child is provided with the right material. The state does not have the right to contest home schooling unless the state can prove the child is being denied a good education. The way I see it now, the state is trying to make the parent prove need for home schooling.
With the Amish, they do have requirments with respect to math, english, spelling...etc. I know that in NY, the Amish school house down the road from me will higher a substitute teacher if the regular teacher is sick. This is to satisfy state law in education.
-P.
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Brew
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #16 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 11:29am » |
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Where in the Constitution is a "good education" something that is guaranteed as a right? Especially a state-sponsored education?
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Paul98
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:29am, brewcrew wrote:| Where in the Constitution is a "good education" something that is guaranteed as a right? Especially a state-sponsored education? |
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It dosn't Brew. I think you would have a hard time arguing the founding fathers were against education or the opportunity for an education seeing as they all could read and wright. Perhaps it was included in the Liberty part of the constitution.
-P.
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Killroy 2.0
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #18 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 12:08pm » |
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The last part of the article says
Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."
 I might be mistaken but is that not what HOME is!!! 
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Brew
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #19 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 1:30pm » |
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I think you're mistaken, Gena. The state views parents as the enemy, the ones who actually inflict harm on the children. The children must be protected from the enemy, and we, the state, know what's best for them.
What a prime example of bureacracy run amok. There might be a fraction of a percentage of parents who use their kids as punching bags, so the schools have to become the place where ALL parents must hand over their rights. It's all about the lowest common denominator.
C'mon - you went to a public school, didn't you?
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Sandy_C
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #20 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 1:36pm » |
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"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."
Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue
WRONG!
Parents have a DUTY to educate their children, whether it's in public school, private school, or homeschool. Parents, in my opinion have the RIGHT to determine which method is best for their child, not the state.
The role of public education is not to teach citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation. What the He** is this, the old Soviet Union? Public education is to teach children to read, do math, history, geography, languages, the arts, sports - to teach them to become well-rounded citizens, who eventually can be productive in society rather than a drain on society.
I'm not surprised the teachers union is all for this wonderful new ruling. Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent teachers who really care that their students learn the necessities to become contributing citizens. But, as in my own local school district, there are too many inadequate teachers, who teach the students only enough to pass the federal and state mandated tests, because their salaries are dependent on pass/fail rates. This is not completely the teacher's fault. This is the fault of our federal and state educational system who mandates the "No Child Left Behind" program. Our public schools are atrocious. And, I got news for ya, they aren't teaching " citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation". They teach to the lowest ability, and teach only to pass a test. This is why no child is being left behind.
My cousin, mother of five, has homeschooled all of her children since day one, all the way through high school. I find it interesting that when her oldest son took the SAT, ACT, and a myriad of other tests required of him, because is WAS homeschooled, his scores were astronomical, and he received a full four year scholarship to college. My cousin is not and never has been an accredited teacher, yet her children are intelligent, smart, active in the community, active in the church, active in sports, artistic, and can speak a second language quite well.
This ruling sucks! I don't know who these judges are, but with this ruling, they are contributing to the dumbing down of our children.
Do we, as parents, not have the DUTY, the OBLIGATION, and the RIGHT to give our children the best education possible? Well, they aren't getting it in public schools any longer, so until the government fixes our education system, parents have the final say.
Off soap box now! Damn, I'm pissed!
Sandy
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Paul98
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on Mar 7th, 2008, 1:36pm, Sandy_C wrote:"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."
Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue
WRONG!
Parents have a DUTY to educate their children, whether it's in public school, private school, or homeschool. Parents, in my opinion have the RIGHT to determine which method is best for their child, not the state.
The role of public education is not to teach citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation. What the He** is this, the old Soviet Union? Public education is to teach children to read, do math, history, geography, languages, the arts, sports - to teach them to become well-rounded citizens, who eventually can be productive in society rather than a drain on society.
I'm not surprised the teachers union is all for this wonderful new ruling. Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent teachers who really care that their students learn the necessities to become contributing citizens. But, as in my own local school district, there are too many inadequate teachers, who teach the students only enough to pass the federal and state mandated tests, because their salaries are dependent on pass/fail rates. This is not completely the teacher's fault. This is the fault of our federal and state educational system who mandates the "No Child Left Behind" program. Our public schools are atrocious. And, I got news for ya, they aren't teaching " citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation". They teach to the lowest ability, and teach only to pass a test. This is why no child is being left behind.
My cousin, mother of five, has homeschooled all of her children since day one, all the way through high school. I find it interesting that when her oldest son took the SAT, ACT, and a myriad of other tests required of him, because is WAS homeschooled, his scores were astronomical, and he received a full four year scholarship to college. My cousin is not and never has been an accredited teacher, yet her children are intelligent, smart, active in the community, active in the church, active in sports, artistic, and can speak a second language quite well.
This ruling sucks! I don't know who these judges are, but with this ruling, they are contributing to the dumbing down of our children.
Do we, as parents, not have the DUTY, the OBLIGATION, and the RIGHT to give our children the best education possible? Well, they aren't getting it in public schools any longer, so until the government fixes our education system, parents have the final say.
Off soap box now! Damn, I'm pissed!
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No Sandy, it is the new Americian Democratic Socialists! A.K.A Comunisim 2.00.8 It isn't Democrat 1.0, or Liberal 1.01 or even progressive 2.0.
Dumb down the kids, get more and more of the population either living off handouts or in government jobs which are controlled by the unions and after you reach a critical mass...........you have a socalistic society that is fully dependent on government. Home schooling undermines this....God forbid you have a group of people that are well educated and self sufficient. That would cause problems!
-P.
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Sandy_C
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #22 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 2:27pm » |
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Paul, 
You and I are on the same page.
The public educational system in this country is dumbing down our children.
Why not just let the country take care of everything for us, how our children are educated, our health care, our job opportunities, the quality of our air and water, how much income we are allowed to earn?
Why not just hand the entire country over to China, Japan, or some middle Eastern country right now and be done with it? This is where we're heading, and if the American citizen does not wake up, and realize that the more we allow our government to do "for us", the less we have.
Sorry, It's not a good day, I'm sick, I'm hurting (not from CH), and now I'm angry!
Sandy
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Jonny
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #23 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 7:09pm » |
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Hmmmmmm!
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Re: One by one...
« Reply #24 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 7:26pm » |
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Yet another reason I will not miss California. Do you know in California *parents* are the true enemy of children? In California, it is not legal to spank your kid. It is not legal to *yell* at your kid. Seriously. If your kid runs away in California, they haven't broken the law. It is illegal in California to lock your children in the house or in their room. I could go on and on. This state sucks.
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