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Topic: Is there a logical explanation for CH ????? (Read 1001 times) |
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hootchdom
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Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« on: Nov 11th, 2003, 3:22pm » |
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I know you all have probably discussed this before but I would like to get your opinions on this.
Cluster Headache cycles are rhythmic in each person whether it be every six months, year, eighteen months, two years or whatever. From all of your descriptions and my experiences each cycles for the most part are the same. What deviation probably can be attributed to medication, age or other changes in life.
If this happens on such a regular basis (chronics excused), one would have to conclude that the body is repeating the same process each cycle. From what little I’ve read (and I do emphasis little) this could be a some type of chemical imbalance, hormone imbalance, biological resetting, something not firing correctly in the brain. But whatever is wrong after a given amount of time (once again chronics excused) the body rights itself and the cycle stops. Only to start again………
With the body repeating a certain process at a regular interval (even though it various by individual) and with all the modern diagnostic tools available and with as much knowledge we have about the human body HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF CLUSTER HEADACHES???????????????
Is this over simplifying it? I’m intrigued that the body can be so punctual in its punishment year after year but can figure out a way to fix itself. It normally has a way of healing itself
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Prense
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #1 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 3:29pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 3:22pm, hootchdom wrote:Is this over simplifying it? I’m intrigued that the body can be so punctual in its punishment year after year but can figure out a way to fix itself. It normally has a way of healing itself
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If you aren't oversimplifying it, then we would all be cured, and this site would probably not exist as it does today.
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thomas
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #2 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 3:43pm » |
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I agree with you in part, however I am under the belief that these things are caused by different reasons in different people. Maybe thats why some treatments work for some and not others. As far as a logical explaination - We're all going to heaven, because hell would be a joke to someone with ch.
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Tiannia
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #3 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 3:52pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 3:43pm, thomas wrote:| We're all going to heaven, because hell would be a joke to someone with ch. |
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That has to be true Thomas.
As far as a simple explaination, I dont think that there can be, due to the fact that there are so many variations. ie What age did they start, smoking triggers vs not, etc...
If it is season triggered, then how would that be different here in Las Vegas, verses someon who lives in Wisconsin. Totally different Seasons, really.
I dont think that this is a simple thing. But people try very hard to put it in a simple box. But all of us fight the beaast in different ways, whether we are chonic or not.
Not sure if I made any sense really. /shrug 
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Bob_Johnson
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #4 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 3:54pm » |
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Your assumption re. regularly is incorrect. Clusters may come in a series and then stop but there are many folks who do not have them in highly predictable times.
Still, your basic question is valid: why is there any cycling? At this point, I've never read anything which attempts to explain this aspect of clusters.
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Bob Johnson
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hootchdom
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #5 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 6:10pm » |
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Next question. Almost everyone says the cycle stops as quick as it starts. What has transpired in the body to make the cycle stop? Something has to have taken place hasn’t it?
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thomas
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #6 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 6:29pm » |
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Yeah, the beast finds somebody else to mess with. Circadian rythmes - that's the key for episodics, I think. 
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pubgirl
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #7 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 7:09pm » |
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Bob
May be very wrong here but somewhat of an explanation HAS been attempted I think. The current theory is that we all have deformed hypothalamuses. We probably also all have inherited a genetic predisposition to get CH which may or may not happen depending upon a set of circumstances/events/lifestyle (not defined yet)
The hypothalamus affects hormones and circadian rhythms (amongst many other things) so is the most likely explanation of the seasonality/cycles but I don't think anyone has been more specific or sure about this.
We may also have an inherited gene which causes this abnormality.
Have I got this right folks?
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| « Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2003, 7:10pm by pubgirl » |
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Little Deb
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #8 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 7:39pm » |
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Logical???
My logical exlanation is this.
You sometimes have to experience the bad in life, then you can really appreciate the good.
I appreciate every second of a PF day. I am sure the rest of you do too.
IK, reading it over and over, makes no sense what so ever in regards to CH. 
I give.........
Life sucks, then you die. 
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Prense
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #9 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 7:47pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 7:09pm, pubgirl wrote:| Have I got this right folks? |
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That sounds about right based on what I have read.
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pubgirl
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #10 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 7:49pm » |
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In other words ANOTHER thing you can blame your parents for 
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floridian
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There is a logical explanation for CH !!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:00pm » |
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There is a logical explanation for clusters. Unfortunately, the puzzle is not yet solved. We have lots of pieces, but a wholistic understanding is not in place.
The genetic case for clusters is not very strong but it has been noted to a degree. The hypothalamus is involved, but we don't know that is THE cause, or why it's abnormal (it could be an effect of something else). The immune system is torqued up (extra IgE). Pain transmission is messed up (substance P, NMDA/glutamate). Serotonin is off kilter and melatonin is low and non-cyclic compared to the average person. Inflammitory cytokines are high (TNF-alpha, some interleukins). Nitric oxide production is way high, and opens blood vessels too much, maybe pinching nerves. Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide and CGRP are elavated, and cause blood vessels to open wide, while Neuropeptide Y is trying to clamp the vessels closed. Cell membranes have characteristic defects in phospholipids and receptors. The list goes on. What is the primary cause, and what is a secondary effect?? Is CH the result of some particular combination of these dysfunctions?? And what about the damn cycles - every 12 months in spring; every 12 months in winter; every 18 months; maybe no cycle at all. The truth is out there - stay tuned.
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pubgirl
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #12 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:04pm » |
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Floridian, I think you are out of date. The genetic case is looking very strong, though as yet unproven.
Of 6 identical twins studied where one had CH, they both had it. There are also many 'cluster families' being researched in the UKwhere a genetic link is looking almost definite although the actual gene is way off being identified.
There is a the largest ever CH gene reserach programme going on in the UK now so lets hope they come up with something
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| « Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:14pm by pubgirl » |
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pubgirl
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #13 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:13pm » |
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Sorry, add on, Floridian, you are right about the hypothalamus. It has been shown on brain imaging to be abnormal DURING an attack as well, but did it start the attack, or respond to it, who knows?
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Giovanni
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #14 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:13pm » |
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If we have a defective hypothalamus then this must be cause by a defective gene which is inheritable by our children. Everything that I have read says that cluster headaches are not inherited; that offspring are no more likely to acquire cluster headaches than the general population. Perhaps we have caused damage to the hypothalamus by our personality types and or life styles?
Interesting though I was described headaches that my late aunt used to have in the mid 1960’s whose symptoms were exactly text book cluster headaches.
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pubgirl
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #15 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:15pm » |
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No, don't buy that "we did it to ourselves" crap. I prefer to believe I was just unlucky
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| « Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:16pm by pubgirl » |
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jonny
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #16 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:17pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 8:13pm, Giovanni wrote: Perhaps we have caused damage to the hypothalamus by our personality types and or life styles?
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Just how does that fit with a 12 yr old?
been chronic since 12.
................................jonny
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Giovanni
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #17 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:25pm » |
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That's right pub-girl, I don't want to think I did this thing to myself.
And you're right too Jonny. Maybe no logical explaination for this curse.
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jonny
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #18 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:27pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 8:25pm, Giovanni wrote:| And you're right too Jonny. Maybe no logical explaination for this curse. |
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Id love to kill the prick that came up with it though.....LMMFAO
.................................jonny
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eyes_afire
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #19 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:33pm » |
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We have to be careful about the very important distinction between heredity and genetic predisposition. I believe there is a distinction, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. For genetic predisposition, it is not required that the illness be prevalent in a family. Not all genes are expressed... some illnesses are transmitted through recessive genes. Whereas heredity usually implies the expression of those genes. So, if my mother and grandmother had CH, it may be plausible to say that I 'inherited' them and was genetically predisposed to get them. However if neither my mother nor grandmother had CH, it would still be incorrect to rule out genetic predisposition... because the genes may be recessive. In that case, I wouldn't think to say that I 'inherited' them since they were never genetically expressed in my parents. And yet I couldn't rule out genetic cause.
It all may seem like nothing more than semantics, but when considering the scientific research setting, it is a very important distinction.
--- Steve
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floridian
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #20 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 8:42pm » |
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You are right about the genetic component. I haven't read as much on genetics as on neurotransmitters and immunology. In the long run, the genetics are critical for understanding the big picture, and more likely to get at a real cure. In the short run, the other research is more likely to result in incrementally better treatments. But its all good.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2003, 9:29pm by floridian » |
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Prense
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #21 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 9:16pm » |
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on Nov 11th, 2003, 8:33pm, eyes_afire wrote:| So, if my mother and grandmother had CH, it may be plausible to say that I 'inherited' them and was genetically predisposed to get them. However if neither my mother nor grandmother had CH, it would still be incorrect to rule out genetic predisposition... because the genes may be recessive. In that case, I wouldn't think to say that I 'inherited' them since they were never genetically expressed in my parents. And yet I couldn't rule out genetic cause. |
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It's easy to assume this, however...
Dating back to my great grandparents (both sides) I cannot find one instance of anyone in my family who has had anything resembling CH. My Mom's mom had 9 siblings, my mother has 8 and so do I. Big ass family...
Migraines are not even prevalent in my family.
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jep22
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #22 on: Nov 11th, 2003, 10:42pm » |
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Its Simple! Clusters are a vestige of our ancestors fight/flight mechanism. When chased by the sabertooth they would have a CH, turnaround screaming in pain and scare the tiger away. 
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Charlie
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #23 on: Nov 12th, 2003, 12:33am » |
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The only thing that I can come up with that makes any sense is that CH is a perfect example of sloppy engineering.
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rumplestiltskin
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Re: Is there a logical explanation for CH ?????
« Reply #24 on: Nov 12th, 2003, 3:47am » |
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for what its worth
I think Pubgirl's first post in this thread is the most on-target view as we ponder the "cluster"..."cyclcal" nature of Clusterheadaches given the state of current research focusing on the hypothalmusthingy. "predisposition" to CH is facinating.
The curious might do well to search the very old archives of this site for many of GARY G's posts and the surrounding threads. If you really want to delve you can get lost there for days. He even did latitude studies...and I quote "hell - if light processed through the hypothalmus makes birds migrate like clockwork (which it does),it certainly can set off these attacks somehow !" June 23 1999
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