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sailpappy
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Dreaming Question
« on: Jul 9th, 2006, 11:07am » |
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 Hello all,
I've touched on this in the past(distant past!) and I'm curious how many actually incorperate "Cluster Awareness" into their Dreams?
Here are a few links to Lucid Dreaming Sites that examplify the process. I know that I always dream I'm having or starting a cluster, before I waken to a Full Blown attack! Last night was no exception!
http://www.dreamviews.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming
Greatfull to be awake, even if sleep deprived! Pappy
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LeLimey
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #1 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 11:38am » |
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Hi Pappy,
You might be interested in a series we've been running in the OUCH Newsletter about Neurogenesis which has stuff about dreaming in it. The subject o dreaming is one that is close to the authors heart and I'm sure he would love to answer this.. so I've emailed the topic to him! He only checks the net from work so I expect he will read up and get back to you tomorrow. I'll be eager to see more on it too so thanks for bringing it up!
In the meantime have a look through the old issues of the OUCH Newsletters
Helen
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Richr8
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #2 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 11:39am » |
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Hi Pappy!
I had two rogue (out of cycle) Kip 5+ hits two weeks ago and both were preceded by dreams of having a CH. In fact many of my night time hits begin that way. Fortunately this time, I was able to knock both down with just O2.
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pf wishes,
Rich
...because yesterday is history and you never know what tomorrow will bring.
"Med free"- A few seeds and lots of O2-LG but not great.
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BobG
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #3 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 12:33pm » |
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on Jul 9th, 2006, 11:07am, sailpappy wrote: I know that I always dream I'm having or starting a cluster, before I waken to a Full Blown attack!
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Yep. Same with me. Many times.
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Stay stressed. Never relax. Never sleep. Ever.
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LeLimey
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #4 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 12:57pm » |
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I've had several dreams where I dreamed I was getting hit only to wake up and be in the midst of it. One particularly horrible one was while I was on Topiramate.I had a dream that I was walking down a foggy street after a man who I KNEW was the beast. In my dream I knew that if I could catch up with him and look him in the eye I'd never have a hit again. I was chasing after him and every time I got closer the pain was so bad I'd let him just get out of reach until eventually, crawling, I managed to touch the edge of his coat. I woke up because I had woken everyone else up getting hit but hadn't woken up myself. I was walking around the clothes dept in Asda the next day feeling all the materials trying to find the same one so if I saw it again I'd "know" and I had to consciously stop myself from touching strangers coats to "see"... it was horrible.
One thing that I'd like to also mention though is that since I've been using RC seeds I have woken several times in a panic from dreams where I was getting hit - to find I wasn't getting hit for real. That was very unsettling and I was afraid to go back to sleep in case it was a premonition.
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Guiseppi
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #5 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 2:13pm » |
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The worst part is I'll dream the headache starts, dream I start the 02 right away to abort it, dream the damned 02 isn't working, finally wake up and it's already at a 6 or 7!!! The mind is a fantastic supercomputer. If our race lasts another 25,000 years we might actually learn how it works!
Guiseppi
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Cat_CH
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #6 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 3:43pm » |
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Funny things these dreams... Before waking up in the night, I recall having a lot of what I call my "fighting dreams". In many of these dreams I am a kind of warrier/freedom-fighter, who tries to escape from the invasion of monsters/aliens that are trying to take over control of humans by sucking out their mind and soul! It is always a hard battle, and when everything is about to be lost and the terrible creatures are moving in to kill me I find myself waking with that terrible pain...
Hehe..isn't it weird? Maybe I have been watching too many scary movies or something...
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sailpappy
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #7 on: Jul 9th, 2006, 10:34pm » |
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I guess what prompted me to write this post is the dream I had last night, I was in the yard runnning the hose over my head and for some reason I sprayed WD-40 on the side of my head, I started talking to a total stranger who had stopped to ask why I was in the freezing cold, running the water over my head, I found myself dreaming of pleading with my old Neurologist for Pain Meds just before I realized it was time to run for the bathroom and awoke. already a K-9 as usual. but the most vivid dream I have had in a very long time.
I usually only dream of a normal situation with my wife or Grandkids, once in a while I am on the computer with Svenn, but always realize I am asleep and wake to run for the bathroom just in time to hurl!
Strange defense mechanism we have I guess, supercomputer with a short in the Mother Board I'd say!!
Pappy
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unsolved1
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For me, dreaming is a prelude to pain. If I dream (or remember dreamin') I wake to pain !  I DON'T want to dream anymore.
UNsolved
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George_J
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #9 on: Jul 10th, 2006, 12:05am » |
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REM sleep--dreaming sleep--is the trigger of triggers for me. Nearly all my hits occur in the first cycle of REM sleep of the night, about 90 minutes after I fall asleep. So consequently, I tend to remember the dreams I've had when the hits occur.
The dreams don't seem to have any specific content related to CH, but I usually wake before the thing comes full blown. They're just dreams, but as I'm coming to wakefulness the content of the dream begins to incorporate elements of typical CH behavior--restlessness, anxiety, etc.
The first reaction I have when I awake fully is strong denial--no, this isn't happening--but I've learned that doesn't help anything. So I accept that a hit has happened, get up, and go to my "cluster nest" in the living room to deal with it. Then the Beast and I visit each other, sometimes 'till the sun comes up.
The Beast is my stalwart, lifelong, and unwelcome companion.....
Sometimes I dread sleep and fear dreams. Monsters live there.
Best regards,
George
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| « Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2006, 3:04am by George_J » |
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Ah! The foreigners put on such airs
Wearing the tangerine suits
And their harlequin eyes.
The pain they inspire
Draws in harmonica melodies
And the feathers of birds
Which flame up at their touch.
It all comes to light in the sheer
Debonair.
(Ellen)
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sailpappy
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #10 on: Jul 10th, 2006, 12:06am » |
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 I sure understand that! Waking 3 to 4 times each night, one might think I'm insane to Dream. Maybe that is the problem!!
Unfortuneately my Dreams are what is keeping me going at the moment! Pappy
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LeeS
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #11 on: Jul 10th, 2006, 4:26am » |
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Yes, I was a regular "90 minute REMer" too; and it was dreaming about being hit whilst actually being hit that got me onto this somewhat wacky theory. To save you looking it up, the overall hypothesis can be found here:
http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/02-2006/02-2006-12.htm
My initial train of thought focussed on why people actually sleep and dream. There are a lot of theories out there, but in truth, no one really knows. One thing's for sure though, if we don’t have regular sleep patterns including dream-time, things can get totally f*cked up – unfortunately a double-wammy-chicken-and-egg thing for sufferers.
It is thought by many that REM sleep may be much more important than non-REM sleep. Sleep researchers have found that if periods of REM sleep are selectively disrupted then this results in a rebound effect whereby the next night, barring any more selective interference from researchers, there will be an extra amount of REM and associated dreaming. Dreams are most frequently remembered when an individual is woken from REM sleep, but can occur during the different stages of non-REM sleep. In a nutshell, I think that it's getting the right balance of sleep (and dreaming) that is the problem amongst CH sufferers (even when out of cycle).
Symptoms of underlying illness can also occur during REM sleep, including angina, sleep apnoea, peptic ulcer disease, migraine and, of course, CH where it has been hypothesised that the transition from REM sleep to NREM sleep may play a role in triggering night time attacks amongst cluster headache sufferers.
The 'silent' hits fascinate me too. It's as if they are there for a purpose. If I am awoken during the night for some reason (other than CH) I have found that it looks like I'm having an attack (blocked nose, teary eye etc.) but no pain. It makes me wonder how many times this occurs during the night without me knowing about it. Most pain has a purpose, but what the hell is the purpose of CH pain and why is it normally so severe?
I used to get hit regularly at 3.30pm too, which has led me to wonder if we actually have a 'wake-cycle' similar to the five stages of sleep (albeit less pronounced). I'm giving it some more thought; if only to bore the pants off Helen  I could go on and on for ever about this whole subject – I've 34 pages of crap already – but I shan't bore the rest of you silly here; you'll have to wait for the monthly newsletter (there's a plug for you nani – where's my bonus? )
Sweet PF dreams.
-Lee
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LeeS
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #12 on: Jul 10th, 2006, 5:22am » |
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I nicked this off one of the Bob's here - cheers mate. Its about sleep (and reading between the lines – dreaming) in migraine, but interesting in this respect nevertheless:
Quote:Dysfunction of arousal systems in sleep-related migraine without aura
Authors: Della Marca, G; Vollono, C; Rubino, M1; Di Trapani, G1; Mariotti, P1; Tonali, PA1
Source: Cephalalgia, Volume 26, Number 7, July 2006, pp. 857-864(
Publisher: Blackwell Publishing
Abstract:
Della Marca G, Vollono C, Rubino M, Di Trapani G, Mariotti P & Tonali PA. Dysfunction of arousal systems in sleep-related migraine without aura. Cephalalgia 2006; 26:857-864. London. ISSN 0333-1024
Primary headaches are closely related to sleep. Modifications in the patterns of arousal during sleep have been reported in migraine, especially in the nights preceding a headache attack. We aimed at evaluating the pattern of arousal from sleep in a group of patients affected by sleep-related migraine. We enrolled 10 consecutive patients, three males and seven females, aged between 20 and 62 years, who presented frequent attacks of migraine without aura (more than five per month), closely related to sleep (more than one-half of the attacks occurred during sleep, causing an awakening). A control group was studied, matched for age and sex. Patients and controls underwent a full-night polysomnographic study, following adaptation; arousal pattern was studied by the scoring of the high-frequency EEG arousal and by the cyclic alternating pattern (CAP). Migraineurs showed a lower CAP rate in non-rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep and, in particular, a lower number of A1 phases (low-frequency, high-amplitude EEG bursts) compared with the controls. Migraineurs also showed a lower index of high-frequency EEG arousals during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. The reduction in the CAP rate indicates a lower level of arousal fluctuation in NREM sleep. The reduced arousal index in REM suggests a dysfunction in neural structures involved in both the control of REM sleep and the pathophysiology of migraine, such as the hypothalamus and the brainstem.
Source: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/cha/2006/00000026/00000007/art 00013;jsessionid=7ser64k12dv4p.victoria |
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-Lee
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LeLimey
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #13 on: Jul 10th, 2006, 11:46am » |
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on Jul 10th, 2006, 4:26am, LeeS wrote:...you'll have to wait for the monthly newsletter (there's a plug for you nani – where's my bonus? )
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I know I don't often say anything nice to you Lee (okay I NEVER have  ) - but can I just take this opportunity to say you are worth every penny of your salary at OUCH US... 
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LeeS
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #14 on: Jul 11th, 2006, 6:56am » |
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Does that mean it's been doubled again Helen?
-Lee
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LeLimey
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #15 on: Jul 11th, 2006, 7:38am » |
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Dream on Lee! ....which brings us neatly back to....
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chopmyheadoff
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #16 on: Jul 12th, 2006, 2:50am » |
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i think you guys are looking too deep into this.
Has no body ever been dreaming that their alarm is going off before it actually wakes them up for real.
ie your brain heared the alarm clock, then incorperated it into the dream u were having ??
its the same with the ch, you start getting hit, so your subcionsious puts that into your dream, then when u wake up your being hit . .
i dont think these dreams are preminitions that your going to wake up with a ch, rather the ch penetrating your dream
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starlight
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #17 on: Jul 12th, 2006, 10:00am » |
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Lee,
I found what you posted to be really interesting. You wrote, "I think it is about getting the right amount of sleep (and dreaming) that is the problem for cluster sufferers (even when not in cycle)". I think you are onto something. I have never met a person that dreams as much as I do when sleeping. Normally (usually everyday) I remember many vivid dreams that I have had after I wake up, and in my 20's (I am now 32) it was even more intense. It was almost as if (compared to anyone else I asked) I was awake while sleeping--like watching a movie of dreams for hours.
The other thing I will say is that (and I have been episodic for nearly 20 years), I do always wake up from vivid REM with the clusters and also sometimes get them during the day but initially it was just at night) and every now and then I have had this strange gut feeling that my body/brain was trying to stop me from going into REM--like "reacting" to the fact that I was going into REM.
I will also say that melatonin seems to be working wonders for me for the past 5 days. This is all interesting stuff to think about. I hope they cure this someday.
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LeeS
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #18 on: Jul 12th, 2006, 12:01pm » |
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-Starlight
I did a dream survey at OUCH UK a while back to see if sufferers appeared to dream more or less than the norm, but unfortunately it was inconclusive. The trouble is that it's such a subjective subject and the bases were too low. Most scientists believe that dreams occur in all people with about equal frequency per amount of sleep, so when people say that they don't dream, they possibly mean they do not recall their dreams. The only true way to tell the difference is through monitoring electroencephalograms (EEG) whilst people sleep. I'm sure yours would be extremely interesting based on your comments!
I agree, dreaming is a fascinating subject per se. You may want to check this out if you haven't done so already:
http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/06-2006/06-2006-08.htm
http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/06-2006/06-2006-09.htm
Glad that the melatonin is working for you, but as for the cure – who knows? There may not be much that we can do currently about an abnormal hypothalamus (or indeed a malfunctioning pineal gland, if this is the case); but perhaps one day, bearing in mind recent developments in stem cell research and possibly nanotechnology in neurosurgery, this may well change. I hope so.
-Lee
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E-Double
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Re: Dreaming Question
« Reply #19 on: Jul 12th, 2006, 1:40pm » |
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I do not really recall too many dreams, however, my wife has mentioned that I will cry in my sleep and say " NO MORE PAIN...PLEASE GOD!!!" in my sleep prior to attacks @ night.
This has happened dozens of times she says
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I can't believe that I have to bang my
Head against this wall again
But the blows they have just a little more
Space in-between them
Gonna take a breath and try again.
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