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Topic: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls (Read 762 times) |
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Tiannia
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Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:18pm » |
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I am not posting this to offend anyone. I just want some feedback from people who are other religions so that I can possible understand my parents a little better.
Some background. I was raised Non-Denominational Christian. Was baptised at the age of 6. Taught 1st grade Sunday School from the time I started 7th grade until I graduated HS and went to College.
In my studies of a Psy Degree I worked with abused Children and had a crisis of faith. At one point I went home and actually talked to my Youth Minister and discussed what I was feeling and going thru.
In the end, I have chosen to be Wiccan. My Husband is one as well and I raise my children that way. I do not bad mouth other religions and I sit and talk to my daughter (as my son is still really young) when she has questions. My daughter knows that if she wants to go to church I will go with her and we can talk about what she got from it.
I will not force my kids to be anything. It is my choice to raise them to understand that no matter what anyone wants to call thier Higher Power, is what is right for them, but that no one has the right to tell you what is right for you.
ok so I am trying to make amends with my parents, as there was a huge issue that caused us not to speak for 5 years. I talk to them now on the phone, and they talk to the kids, but it is very strained. I am not here to get into the details.
But one thing that keeps soming up is that I taught my daughter a different bed time prayer then the one I was taught as a child. And I am hoping that someone here might be able to help me explain why my parents got so upset about it. This was what kicked off to the whole arguement and keeps coming back up 7 yrs later, and I dont think until we can work it out will there be a chance for a full forgiveness or at least understanding, and I dont know how much longer my mom will be around in this life.
ok I was taught the standard.
Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take.
This a pray in Jesus name , Amen
ok This is what my family says at night. At bed time we all get together and hold hands and say this Blessing.
Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray to learn my world to keep
Protect the Air and skys of blue
The oceans, lakes and rivers too
To guard the mighty forest lands
The plains, the shores and desert sands
Protect all creatures, wild and free
In Air, on Earth and in the Sea.
God and Goddess Bless, Sweet Dreams
My folks watched my daughter over night and this is what she said. So when we picked her up the next day they where livid and it all went down hill from there.
So what is it about the Blessing that we say that is so bad from a Christian standpoint.
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Brew
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #1 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:24pm » |
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Perhaps it's that the prayer doesn't acknowledge Christ as the supreme being. Just a guess.
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thomas
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #2 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:26pm » |
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Christians don't believe in a "Godess", that's where they have a problem with it. There is a hang up with the whole "no other gods before me" commandment.
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #3 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:29pm » |
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Exactly what I was going to say Bill.
Quote:| This a pray in Jesus name |
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Your prayer left this out.
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Tiannia
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #4 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:29pm » |
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So it is nothing more then the last line that pisses them off. Maybe I can figure out a way to get some center ground there.
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Brew
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #5 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:30pm » |
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And Christians are taught that the only way to the Father is through the Son, hence the words "In Jesus' name we pray."
And also what Thomas said.
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Brew
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #6 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:31pm » |
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I got a feeling they're gonna be pissed off until your whole family professes to be Christian.
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #7 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:35pm » |
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No no no , it is not JUST one line in a prayer, hon.
It is much much more than that. It is a whole entire belief system. I'm with Bill once again in that I don't believe your parents will ever understand Wiccan theology.
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thomas
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #8 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:42pm » |
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on Nov 6th, 2007, 2:35pm, Linda_Howell wrote:
No no no , it is not JUST one line in a prayer, hon.
It is much much more than that. It is a whole entire belief system. I'm with Bill once again in that I don't believe your parents will ever understand Wiccan theology. |
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Exactly. It is the norm, from my experience, that once some one has a religious belief system, it is almost impossible to get them to see things from a different perspective. It doesn't matter what religion, it's usually "I am right, you are wrong". I'm pretty open minded, afterall it's your soul, not mine or my soul and not yours. Religion is the most divisive thing in our history as people. Always has been, always will be. Who's right and who's wrong, sadly we won't know until it's too late.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:09pm by thomas » |
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Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God, the numbers look the same on their credit cards. Triptans cause rebounds. Learn it, believe it, live it. I use triptans as the absolute LAST RESORT when treating my CH.
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Tiannia
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #9 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:48pm » |
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I know that ideally my parents would love us to prfess to be Christian. My father has told me that he failed me as a parent because I'm not Christian. What I told him was that he could not have failed me because he taught me to be a strong intelligent woman who can make choices for herself.
My parents can not get past the idea that we are Pagan. That words is just taboo for them. And they are afriad of what the people at church who know me will think. That is what frustrats me the most. Is that I dont understand why they care what the people at church will think.
I am hoping and trying to get us to a point hat we an leave this one issue (big as it is) aside and not have it dominate every conversation.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:50pm by Tiannia » |
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Kevin_M
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #10 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 2:59pm » |
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Quote:| I pray the Lord my soul to keep. |
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This shows a desire, prays to be with the Lord in heaven should you pass in your sleep.
Quote:| I pray to learn my world to keep |
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Maybe this seems hard for them to identify with a religious belief as opposed to whatever the Lord chooses, will be done. No mention of a desire of a soul in heaven, whatever He chooses.
I'm not that informed here but soul could have something to do with what is being prayed for. Original is take my soul, yours is protect and guard our world.
I like yours. 
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| « Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:03pm by Kevin_M » |
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thebbz
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #11 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:01pm » |
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 You know Jesus will be there anytime your ready.
Pagen or not. I am hoping for the best with your family.
Even though they do not understand your feelings, try to understand theirs.
So I guess Christmas is somewhat strained as well.
all the best....and prayers to ya anyhoo....just in case  .
thebb
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Brew
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #12 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:17pm » |
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on Nov 6th, 2007, 2:48pm, Tiannia wrote:And they are afriad of what the people at church who know me will think. That is what frustrats me the most. Is that I dont understand why they care what the people at church will think.
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Ya know, it has been my experience that most religious conviction is fear driven. Fear of the unknown. Fear of not spending eternity in paradise. Fear of you-name-it.
They probably don't care what the people at church think. They're afraid of what they think. There's a difference.
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Callico
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #13 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:27pm » |
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Tiannia,
I understand where you are coming from, although I am from the other side o f the argument.
What your parents are feeling is rejection. Not just of themselves, but of the belief system they raised you with. It is not just as if you had changed from Catholic to Protestant, or Christian to Judaism. Those are within the same basic belief systems in that they hold Jehovah (or Yahweh, same name just different spelling) to be supreme. Wicca however is the antithesis of Christianity, and as Christians they will probably never be able to accept your changes, just the same as commited Wiccans do not accept the change of one of thiers to Christianity. They also fear for your soul and for the souls of your family. Please understand that their disagreement with you is a show of love for you rather than lack of love. If they did not love you they would not care. They are just having a tough time of showing it in a manner that you understand.
While I disagree wholeheartedly with your belief system I fully support your belief in it. Also, while I would like to persuade you to take another look at Chrisianity, this is not the place for it.
I hope you will be able to sit down with them and reconcile things so that you can be amicable and a family.
Jerry
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Tiannia
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #14 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 3:32pm » |
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Thebbz, I appreciate you and your thoughts. My daughter asked about Jesus and I told her that he was a great prophet for Christianity. That he taught wonderful lessons on how people should act, and forgive. And I'll always take prayers whenever and wherever they come from. Just as I will send Love and Light and Bright Blessings. It is what is meant in the heart that brings good things into your life and those around you.
Brew, I think you are right. It is hard to get someone to set aside thier fears. But I try to look at everything as a learning experience. That there is something I can learn from everyone, even if that lesson is how NOT to do something.
Thanks Kev. I like it myself.
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Emily
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #15 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:03pm » |
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Tia,
I too, was raised in a strong Catholic environment. As an adult, I have made my own choices in life and whilst I don't class myself as 'religious' in any way, I do believe that there must be something (I think this is referred to as agnostic) out there - a higher power of some description, but I'm still waiting to find out.
Luckily I have no children (as I think this is when problems like this become an issue), but when I'm with my parents in Canada I go to church out of respect for them.
I love what you are teaching your children as they will grow to become open-minded, sound, independent and self-reliant on their own judgement. Just what this world needs more of. I can only hope that the children I have one day will grow to be the same. I also love your version of the prayer.
Perhaps it's a compromise that needs to be reached. Not in terms of your religion or theirs, but as an experience. If your daughter has asked about Jesus, why not see if your parents will take her to church to experience it (NOT change her mind in any way!). She is clearly already inquisitive and bright. This way she can ask questions of people who actually believe in Jesus and see it from a different view point. Then maybe your parents will take a different view to this too and see that you're not brainwashing them or doing them any harm at all.
You probably won't ever agree on it. All you can do is make sure that life goes as smoothly for everyone in your life and you make the most of the tmie you spend together.
Just my  .
Hope this situation gets better soon.
Em
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #16 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:04pm » |
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Quote: I dont understand why they care what the people at church will think.
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You failed to mention that when you were trying to understand your parents feelings.
Did they actually say that to you. Have they indicated that they care what "People" think? If they did say that to you, and they did indicate that in other ways, then that is wrong, just as you would be if it was the other way around.
I think it was Elaine who had, at the bottom of her posts, "I would rather live my life as if there was a God and find out later there wasn't...then to live my life as if there was no God and find out later that there was.
Religion being divisive or not Thomas...I like that sentiment.
edit to add: I have looked up Wiccan on the internet and it is confusing to me to say the least. Could you maybe give them some insight into the inner workings of this belief system so that they CAN understand it better. That might help. The word Pagan for instance is not a word most people would associate with something nice. If you could explain that it only means such and such...you might be on your way to maybe at the very least a working agreement to dis-agree.??? Just a thought.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:09pm by Linda_Howell » |
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #17 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:29pm » |
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Christians can be a cantakenous bunch. Not much room for....anything different.
Give yourself a break. You do just fine.
Charlie
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Tiannia
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #18 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:40pm » |
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on Nov 6th, 2007, 4:04pm, Linda_Howell wrote:
You failed to mention that when you were trying to understand your parents feelings.
Did they actually say that to you. Have they indicated that they care what "People" think?
edit to add: I have looked up Wiccan on the internet and it is confusing to me to say the least. |
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Yes, they asked me what they are supposed to tell people at church that ask about me? I told them to tell them the truth. Then they said what would they (the church members and such) think if they knew that I was a heathen.
The bad part is that my husband at that point told them to thank the people if they called us heathens. (The italian comes out at the worse times sometimes.) and they got a bit upset, because hoe could we want to be that. I tried to tell them that the word itself means that we Honor the hearth.
There is a really great book that was written by Scott Cummingham called Truth About Witchcraft Today. I got it for them because it explains the beliefs and terminology in a way that is understandable to a person who knows Christian beliefs. But my dad refused to have it in thier house. Thru this thread I am hoping to get ideas on how to open up the conversation again.
Jerry, Thank you. I know that they love me. And that they want what is best for me and my family. But I never really saw it as rejection, but that does make sense. And that is what I was hoping from this thread.
Emily, Thank you as well. It is difficult to teach my kids to be open minded when there is such a harsh stigma on the term witch, or pagan. And both of these terms my kids use when reffering to themselves. Like my son asking me why a little girl in our apartment complex did not know about the God and Goddess. (I have taught at his age, that they are 2 parts of the same thing, that one can not be without the other. Like Night and Day.) My kids where playing with her and the breeze kicke dup and Cameron said "Thank you." and the little girl asked what he said that for and he told her that he was thanking the God and Goddess for the hug. So I told him that not everyone sees the God and Goddess the way we do. They call them by different names, and that is ok. So he is sitting on my lap. And says "God and Goddess, it is ok if Raven (the little girl) does not know who you are. Keep her safe anyway. OK?" Just then the breeze kicked up again and he says thank you again and runs off to play.
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john_d
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #19 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:42pm » |
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Are you trying to make your parents believe like you do or are you trying draw a boundary on where they can interfere with the way you raise your family?
Drawing a boundary is feasible and reasonable, changing your parents beliefs is probably not.
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Tiannia
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #20 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 4:46pm » |
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on Nov 6th, 2007, 4:42pm, john_d wrote:
Are you trying to make your parents believe like you do or are you trying draw a boundary on where they can interfere with the way you raise your family?
Drawing a boundary is feasible and reasonable, changing your parents beliefs is probably not.
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I would never try and stop my parents from thier beliefs. Part of the reason that I searched for another faith was because I did not have the convictions that I saw within my father expecially.
All I want is a way for us to be in the same room and not have it turn into an immediate religious debate.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #21 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 5:19pm » |
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There is very little opportunity for finding "common ground" between the beliefs of Wicca and Christianity. So there is very little opportunity to not have it end up in debate.
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john_d
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #22 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 5:46pm » |
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on Nov 6th, 2007, 4:46pm, Tiannia wrote:
I would never try and stop my parents from thier beliefs. Part of the reason that I searched for another faith was because I did not have the convictions that I saw within my father expecially.
All I want is a way for us to be in the same room and not have it turn into an immediate religious debate. |
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This is a good little instruction article on drawing boundaries in relationships.
http://www.onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go& ;article=272
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Bob P
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #23 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 5:47pm » |
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Quote:| My father has told me that he failed me as a parent because I'm not Christian. |
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This is because it rips his heart out to think that he won' see you in Paradise. An even deeper hurt is believing that you will spend eternity in hell.
A Christian father's charge is to keep his family in the Lord. He hasn't done that. He feels he's failed.
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Re: Religious opinions pls, no debate pls
« Reply #24 on: Nov 6th, 2007, 6:48pm » |
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I guess I was pretty lucky Tia. I've not had any of the negatives tossed on me from my family at all. The ones that matter, are fully accepting of me and love me for me. Witches warts and all. (excuse the pun)
Back when I was a young girl, and just after my father committed suicide, I searched the Church for answers. Without going into the details, suffice it to say no answers ever materialized.
At that point, now a young adult, I simply followed many of the wise words of my Mother. Cliche'ic sorts of quips and phrases if you will, but uniquely her own pearls of wisdom. Mostly about how this spice or this herb helped this pain or this ailment. Or the way to prepare a dish to lift up your spirits when feeling blue. Other things as well but the list would take a book to write.
So the years passed with narry a thought of the Church again save knowing that it wasn't a place I was meant to be. It held nothing for me. But I practiced in the kitchen what Mom would talk to me about. Wedding was performed by a justice of the peace instead of a minister. The (now ex) hubby was all for that as well, as his taste for the Church went sour when his Mother forced him into going up till he was 18 and could then say no.
Marriage, and childbirth then took up 24/7/365 of my life untill my divorce. Thats when I started college. The sheer wealth of history, and Religious studies classes brought to my attention what I'd never even considered. I was truely a Witch. Not because I knew the true meaning of the term and choose it. It's just who I grew to be by the ways I thought and believed and the things that made sence to me. Answered those questions the Church could not.
When I talked to Mom about this is when she mentioned to me that we came from a long line of Witches then, because this is what she, and her Mother, and her Mother before her, and on up the line just knew. So it's in my blood so-to-speak.
I guess something I would say to you is to always remember that even with the importance of family ties, you can still choose those who stand with.
Quote:Be with those who help your being.
Don’t sit with indifferent people, whose breath
comes cold out of their mouths.
Not these visible forms, your work is deeper.
A chunk of dirt thrown in the air breaks to pieces.
If you don’t try to fly,
and so break yourself apart,
you will be broken open by death,
when it’s too late for all you could become.
Leaves get yellow. The tree puts out fresh roots
and makes them green.
Why are you so content with a love that turns you yellow?
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