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BlueMeanie
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Something to think about
« on: May 31st, 2007, 10:57pm » |
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I normally don't start threads and am not hear to debate this theory, but found it to be very interesting.
How much longer do we have?
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"
Prof. Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Gore: 19; Bush: 29
Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580, 000; Bush: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Gore: 127,000,000 Bush: 143,000,000
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2; Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phases of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to 20,000,000 criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
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catlind
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #1 on: May 31st, 2007, 11:22pm » |
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Quote:| Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phases of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase. |
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I am not interested in getting into political debates, however, the above figure seems really really high to me for a country that doesnt' have that many social programs compared to other countries. Where does the 40% figure come from (obviously not the Olson connection, but where did he get his figure and can you lead me to the reference etc.)?
Cat
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BlueMeanie
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #2 on: May 31st, 2007, 11:46pm » |
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Cat,
I agree it DOES sound like an awful HIGH % dependency rate. But if you take into account anything handed out nowadays, there could be SOME truth to it. As far as any reference, I have no idea where it originated as it was just an e-mail forwarded to me. I just thought it was interesting and can see where it could hold some merit, maybe NOT 5 years, but it sounds like the direction where heading IMHO.
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catlind
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #3 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 12:41am » |
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Ahh ok, gotcha. If you find out anything about the origination of the data in the email let me know. I find it a fascinating topic, and would love to be able to check some of the resources to verify the information and check the data they are using for their numbers.
It's not the first time I've heard the analogy or had it compared to the fall of Rome. I'm a history nut so I find it interesting from the historical aspect and the historical data and accuracy of the general theme that all large democracies eventually fade and that others take the place (such as the US has taken the place as the superpower over the UK as far as military might etc.)
It's a fascinating realm of theory and I'd love to be able to do some research for my own information based on what has gone on historically and what is presented with the post.
Cat
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Charlie
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #4 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:01am » |
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Candidate that most people voted for: Gore.
Robert Frost:
"The Past Is a Bucket of Ashes"
1
The woman named Tomorrow
sits with a hairpin in her teeth
and takes her time
and does her hair the way she wants it
and fastens at last the last braid and coil
and puts the hairpin where it belongs
and turns and drawls: Well, what of it?
My grandmother, Yesterday, is gone.
What of it? Let the dead be dead.
2
The doors were cedar
and the panel strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.
The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
where golden girls ran and the panels read:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.
3
It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
to warble: We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.
And while the singers sang
and the strong men listened
and paid the singers well
and felt good about it all,
there were rats and lizards who listened
... and the only listeners left now
... are ... the rats .. and the lizards.
And there are black crows
crying, "Caw, caw,"
bringing mud and sticks
building a nest over the words carved
on the doors where the panels were cedar
and the strips on the panels were gold
and the golden girls came singing:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.
The only singers now are crows crying, "Caw, caw,"
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are ... the rats ... and the lizards.
4
The feet of the rats
scribble on the doorsills;
the hieroglyphs of the rat footprints
chatter the pedigrees of the rats
and babble of the blood
and gabble of the breed
of the grandfathers and the great-grandfathers
of the rats.
And the wind shifts
and the dust on a doorsill shifts
and even the writing of the rat footprints
tells us nothing, nothing at all
about the greatest city, the greatest nation
where the strong men listened
and the women warbled: Nothing like us ever was.
Perhaps not relevant to this silly thread but I was reminded. It's one of those things you read in school that you never forget.
Charlie
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john_d
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #6 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 7:08am » |
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I have definitely thought about the fact that a large voting block of poor and uneducated that is being brought about through immigration would lead to lower standard of living through voted-in taxation and socialization. The latin americans already here think that bigger latin voter block will be good for them, but they don't realize that we are competing on a global scale and that much unskilled labor is only going to be a huge drain on most of this countries resources, it's not worth it and it will bring us all down rather than lift them up.
on May 31st, 2007, 10:57pm, BlueMeanie wrote:I normally don't start threads and am not hear to debate this theory, but found it to be very interesting.
How much longer do we have?
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"
Prof. Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Gore: 19; Bush: 29
Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580, 000; Bush: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Gore: 127,000,000 Bush: 143,000,000
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2; Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phases of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to 20,000,000 criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years. |
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catlind
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #8 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 10:37am » |
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Ok, that makes more sense to me. I thought some of those numbers were way off and wanted to find out what those references were.
It's not the first time I've heard the analogy, although not through this email, it was actually a topic for discussion in the final classes I had to take when I went back to school, and it was compared to the fall of Rome.
Thanks for the info Dan, it is an interesting theory, even if it's an urban legend.
Cat
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Charlie
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #9 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 11:10am » |
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It's an old one too. It's been around several years.
Charlie
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #10 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 11:19am » |
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Yeah, it sounded like bullshit to me. I didnt have the heart to tell Meanie.
Look at the welfare statistics by region.
Look at the abortion rates by region.
Look at the sex with animal rates by region.
Look at the average household income by region.
Look at the divorce rates by region.
After you look at these regions, you can determine that the people that are on welfare, get abortions, think sex with animals is ok, have lower income and get divorces are, on average, the ones that voted for Bush.
I'm not open to debate this theory, its just interesting.
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Brew
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #11 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 11:23am » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 11:19am, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:Yeah, it sounded like bullshit to me. I didnt have the heart to tell Meanie.
Look at the welfare statistics by region.
Look at the abortion rates by region.
Look at the sex with animal rates by region.
Look at the average household income by region.
Look at the divorce rates by region.
After you look at these regions, you can determine that the people that are on welfare, get abortions, think sex with animals is ok, have lower income and get divorces are, on average, the ones that voted for Bush.
I'm not open to debate this theory, its just interesting.
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B - Put down the koolaid, back away slowly and nobody gets hurt.
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #12 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 11:25am » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 11:23am, Brewcrew wrote:
B - Put down the koolaid, back away slowly and nobody gets hurt. |
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Look those rates up, Bro.
I didnt state anything, I just told you to go look these up.
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"Fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool - can't get fooled again"
Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is stupider than that.
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Brew
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #13 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 1:47pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 11:25am, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Look those rates up, Bro.
I didnt state anything, I just told you to go look these up.
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I'm not doing your homework for you. 
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #14 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 1:53pm » |
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Quote:| Look those rates up, Bro. |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 1:47pm, Brewcrew wrote:
I'm not doing your homework for you. |
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Hows that kool-aid taste?
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"Fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool - can't get fooled again"
Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is stupider than that.
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Brew
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #15 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:03pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 1:53pm, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Hows that kool-aid taste?
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I'm not sure I remember. I'm a recovering liberal.
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burnt-toast
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #16 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:13pm » |
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Don't be deceived. America was founded as a republic - not a democracy. The Constitution is replete with undemocratic mechanisms. One most recently criticized is the Electoral College. In their wisdom, the framers gave us the Electoral College so that in presidential elections large, heavily populated states could not demographically run roughshod over small, sparsely populated states. This was a conscious restriction on the majority’s power to make decisions for all.
The founder’s loathed democracies for their unrestrained corruption, mob rule, unchallenged power of omnipotent central governments, suppression of individual rights and freedoms, division of citizenry/social classes, and history of collapse in chaos and bureaucracy. Statements of the founder’s are clear – they did not establish a democracy nor did they intend the United States ever become a democracy.
The word "democracy" appears nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, the two most fundamental documents of our nation. Instead the Constitution's Article IV, Section 4, guarantees "to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government." Our pledge of allegiance is "to the republic for which it stands," not "to the democracy for which it stands" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is not "The Battle Hymn of the Democracy".
In a democracy, the majority rules either directly or indirectly through control of elected representatives. As in a monarchy, the law is whatever the government determines it to be, laws are not universal or stable, and do not represent reason – only the current will of the majority. Laws become the power to restrain individuals and the minority while empowering government or an omnipotent majority. Rights and freedoms become privileges and permissions granted injudiciously by those with power and can be rescinded without challenge. In democracies there are no Constitutional limits on the legislature or standard of justice. It is correct to say that democracy offers no protection, rights or freedoms to individuals or the minority. Every whim of the majority is law no matter how whimsical, arbitrary, tyrannous, or totalitarian. Citizens are obligated to government without right of redress, while government's only obligations to citizens are those legislatively defined for it by the majority.
The founder’s established a Republican form of government that limited powers of government and the majority to preserve (as the founder’s put it) individual God-given, unalienable rights. Nothing in our Constitution makes government the grantor of rights. Instead the Constitution and Bill of Rights puts into practice the principals of the Declaration of Independence granting government only "just powers," and “limited powers” and binding government to protect individual God-given, unalienable rights. The founder’s vision was a system of government immune from the influence of snob-rule, a governing Elite, and mob-rule that historically suppressed individual rights and freedoms for the benefit of the elite.
In recognition that Congress posed the greatest threat to our liberties, the framers used negative phrases against Congress throughout the Constitution such as: shall not abridge, infringe, deny, disparage, and shall not be violated, nor be denied. In a republican form of government, there is rule of law defined by a Constitution. All citizens, including government officials, are accountable to the same law. Government power is limited and decentralized through a system of checks and balances. Government intervenes in civil society based on common law, protects its citizens against force and fraud, but does not intervene in peaceable or voluntary exchange or restriction of individual rights and freedoms to appease a majority. In a Republic, the people have no obligation to government; instead, the government, hired by the people, is obliged to its owners and that includes individuals and the minority.
I am appalled to hear elected representatives and people freely refer to our form of government as a democracy. Damn democracy, it is a fraudulent term used, by ignorant persons and more often by intellectual fakers pushing an infamous mixture of socialism, communism, graft, confiscation of property, and suppression of individual rights and freedoms to establish an elite class of society.
Tom
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #17 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:14pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:03pm, Brewcrew wrote:
I'm not sure I remember. I'm a recovering liberal. |
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Looks like you are fully recovered based on your unwillingness to look up those stats while poo-pooing them.
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Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is stupider than that.
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catlind
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #18 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:18pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:13pm, burnt-toast wrote:| Don't be deceived. America was founded as a republic - not a democracy. |
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Good point and true. It's what makes the theory so fascinating, as past republics of history have not ever been set up the way the US has. I'm just a history nut who loves to examine the current status to the past governements and empires to see what was done differently and what might or might not work.
This is truly a first experience based on most of the historical scenarios.
Cat
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #19 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:22pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:13pm, burnt-toast wrote: In their wisdom, the framers gave us the Electoral College so that in presidential elections large, heavily populated states could not demographically run roughshod over small, sparsely populated states.
Tom
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I dont know much about why we do it this way, but if this was the reason it was set up, it is a complete failure.
I'd have to check the math, but I think the 10 most populated states can control the entire election......winning the entire country with just 10 states. This means the 10 most populated states run roughshod over the 40 smaller ones.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #20 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:32pm » |
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Nope....it would take the top 11 electoral states to run roughshod over the smaller ones. But that would take amazing zeal to line up these geographically and socially diverse states to line up to take out the little guys. Just as it would take an amazing coalition to line up all the little ones plus one bigger one to take down the big states. It's a freaking amazingly well thought out process and one that has served our country pretty well.
Scott
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #21 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:33pm » |
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I am appalled to hear elected representatives and people freely refer to our form of government as a democracy. Damn democracy, it is a fraudulent term used, by ignorant persons and more often by intellectual fakers pushing an infamous mixture of socialism, communism, graft, confiscation of property, and suppression of individual rights and freedoms to establish an elite class of society.
Tom
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #22 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:47pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:32pm, seasonalboomer wrote:Nope....it would take the top 11 electoral states to run roughshod over the smaller ones. But that would take amazing zeal to line up these geographically and socially diverse states to line up to take out the little guys. Just as it would take an amazing coalition to line up all the little ones plus one bigger one to take down the big states. It's a freaking amazingly well thought out process and one that has served our country pretty well.
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But how would this better serve the people rather than a straight popular vote?
I think in the electoral college silences the minority in each state. If each state split their votes, rather than a winner take all system, I think it would be better.
What do you think?
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seasonalboomer
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #23 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 2:59pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:47pm, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
But how would this better serve the people rather than a straight popular vote?
I think in the electoral college silences the minority in each state. If each state split their votes, rather than a winner take all system, I think it would be better.
What do you think?
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Who ever said the minority should have their say? That's why they count votes and let the ones who got more votes be the winner.....The system encourages the minority by telling people that if you want "your way" you better get more people to buy into your deal, or change your thinking to attract more people to think like you do, or find a way to get the majority to share your objectives. Electoral college is a nearly perfect system.
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #24 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 3:09pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 2:59pm, seasonalboomer wrote:
Who ever said the minority should have their say? That's why they count votes and let the ones who got more votes be the winner.....The system encourages the minority by telling people that if you want "your way" you better get more people to buy into your deal, or change your thinking to attract more people to think like you do, or find a way to get the majority to share your objectives. Electoral college is a nearly perfect system.
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I kind of hear you, that is a good point. The one who loses the election has no say.
But the problem is that the person to get more votes does not necessarily win. The person who gets more electoral votes wins.
How does the electoral system prevent the highly populated stated from steam rolling the smaller states? If you take California's 55 votes against Rhode Islands 3 votes, that is a steam rolling. Even if the 10 smallest states all vote one way, they can still be outvoted by the sheer numbers in California.
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"Fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool - can't get fooled again"
Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is stupider than that.
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