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BarbaraD
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Maybe it's time Congress took another look and MAYBE listened to the American Legion - after all they're the ones who have DEFENDED that flag.
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Gator
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Re: : - (
« Reply #1 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 9:34am » |
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Now THIS is something we can agree on. In a lot of other countries, disrespect to their national symbol means death. Here it means $10 per head at the door to some "art" exhibit. Disgusting.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #2 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 10:54am » |
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As a veteran and defender of the flag and all that it stands for, I still believe in the right to free-speech and protest.  I know I'm probably in the minority, but honestly I think if a person is disgusted with America they have a right to voice their displeasure.
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Brew
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Re: : - (
« Reply #3 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:00am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 10:54am, thomas wrote:| As a veteran and defender of the flag and all that it stands for, I still believe in the right to free-speech and protest. I know I'm probably in the minority, but honestly I think if a person is disgusted with America they have a right to voice their displeasure. |
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As long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others or break the law.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #4 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:06am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:00am, Brewcrew wrote:
As long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others or break the law. |
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Agreed.
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Brew
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Re: : - (
« Reply #5 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:29am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:06am, thomas wrote:
I'm with ya, brutha. That's part of what makes this on-going experiment (230+ years) in democracy so great.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #6 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:34am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:29am, Brewcrew wrote:
I'm with ya, brutha. That's part of what makes this on-going experiment (230+ years) in democracy so great. |
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I'm not a big fan of the "lab results" from the last 40 or so years, though. 
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JeffB
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Re: : - (
« Reply #7 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 12:15pm » |
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Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag.
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BarbaraD
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Re: : - (
« Reply #8 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 12:26pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:15pm, JeffB wrote:| Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag. |
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Free speech Yes -- Flag Burning - NO!
That's just me (and a lot of people who died defending old glory) but flag burning should be a treasonous (sp) act and punishable. Say what you want - yell all you want - call anyone names you want to, but leave the flag alone to fly as a symbol it's always been of freedom to do the other things.
And for goodness sakes - TEACH our KIDS to RESPECT the flag. We USED TO say the Pledge of Allegiance to the FLAG every morning in SCHOOL. It meant something then - it should mean the same thing today.
Politically correct be damned!
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ClusterChuck
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Re: : - (
« Reply #9 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 12:31pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:26pm, BarbaraD wrote:Politically correct be damned!
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I don't see anything politically incorrect in what you said!
A lot of us here put in our time defending Old Glory. Respect it, or get the fuck out!
The border is ------------------> that way!!!
Chuck
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #10 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 1:09pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:15pm, JeffB wrote:| Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag. |
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So what you're saying is that in this country, a person can buy something, but has no right to do with it what he wants, even if it does no harm to others?
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Mosaicwench
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It is the Soldier
« Reply #11 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 1:17pm » |
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IT IS THE SOLDIER
It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.
It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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| « Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2007, 1:18pm by Mosaicwench » |
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thomas
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Re: It is the Soldier
« Reply #12 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 1:35pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:17pm, Mosaicwench wrote:IT IS THE SOLDIER
It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.
It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC |
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100% truth. And as I said I was one. I put my life on the line to preserve peoples right to burn the flag that I love and respect. Freedom can not be limited. We are either free or we are not. Freedom should not be legislated.
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andrewjb
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Re: It is the Soldier
« Reply #13 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 3:14pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:35pm, thomas wrote:
100% truth. Freedom can not be limited. We are either free or we are not. Freedom should not be legislated. |
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 . hear hear. andrew. ps. i appologise for snipping your post.
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Charlie
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Re: : - (
« Reply #14 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 10:58pm » |
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I have an idea that perhaps there should be degrees of desecration...but that would a tough one.
I love the flag but my allegiance is more to the country. Burning a flag should not be illegal, a really ineffective way to get across a point but only very rarely illegal.
That idea is why this is a great country.
Charlie
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Mosaicwench
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Re: It is the Soldier
« Reply #15 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:06pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:35pm, thomas wrote:| I put my life on the line to preserve peoples right to burn the flag that I love and respect. |
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If I haven't said it before, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your service to this country.
I gratefully sleep under the blanket of protection you (and others like you) provide.
We owe you a debt that can never be repaid but "thank you" is a start.
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: It is the Soldier
« Reply #16 on: Mar 29th, 2007, 11:32pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:35pm, thomas wrote:
Freedom can not be limited. We are either free or we are not. Freedom should not be legislated. |
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I dont know if i agree with you, bro.
First of all, we have guidelines and laws about freedom. You cant drive your car 100 mph, you cant have sex with kids, you cant yell fire in a crowded theater and so on. These are limits which a free society agrees to (figuratively).
You have to limit freedom, or at least set guidelines for it for the sake of public safety and common standards or chaos will ensue
Course, thats just my opinion.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #17 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 8:40am » |
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Who is physically harmed when a flag is burned? Who's rights are infringed upon when a flag is burned? I'm sorry but there is a big difference between flag burning as a sign of protest and molesting children, my mind can not make the connection of the two.
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BarbaraD
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Re: : - (
« Reply #18 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 9:57am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 8:40am, thomas wrote:| Who is physically harmed when a flag is burned? Who's rights are infringed upon when a flag is burned? I'm sorry but there is a big difference between flag burning as a sign of protest and molesting children, my mind can not make the connection of the two. |
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Ok, I can't let this one go....
It's OK to infringe on my rights to say "One nation UNDER GOD" and have prayer in schools where I pay taxes, but it's freedom of speech for someone to burn a flag - that insults our men in uniform (in my opinion) because it's a symbol of that very freedom these men/women are fighting for.
When I was a kid we were taught "Flag Etiquitte" - You never put the flag up before daylight and always took it down before dark. You never let the flag touch the ground (it had to be destroyed -respectfully (I think you were supposed to send it to DC to be burned a certain way) - if it touched the ground). It had to be folded each time it came off the flag pole and it was "honor" to be allowed to put it up and take it down. You never put the flag up in the rain and took it down immediately if it started raining. And about 100 other things that I can't recall right now.
During Viet Nam, the first time I saw a "flag Burning" I just watched in horror that someone would do that. I hated the war, did NOT agree with it and wrote congress daily in protest, but NEVER even considered buring a flag. Good grief - I had friends and relatives over there.
Sorry I feel so strongly on this but I do. If you think it's ok, then we just disagree - and that's ok too.
Hugs BD
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #19 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 10:27am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 9:57am, BarbaraD wrote:
Ok, I can't let this one go....
It's OK to infringe on my rights to say "One nation UNDER GOD" and have prayer in schools where I pay taxes, but it's freedom of speech for someone to burn a flag - that insults our men in uniform (in my opinion) because it's a symbol of that very freedom these men/women are fighting for.
When I was a kid we were taught "Flag Etiquitte" - You never put the flag up before daylight and always took it down before dark. You never let the flag touch the ground (it had to be destroyed -respectfully (I think you were supposed to send it to DC to be burned a certain way) - if it touched the ground). It had to be folded each time it came off the flag pole and it was "honor" to be allowed to put it up and take it down. You never put the flag up in the rain and took it down immediately if it started raining. And about 100 other things that I can't recall right now.
During Viet Nam, the first time I saw a "flag Burning" I just watched in horror that someone would do that. I hated the war, did NOT agree with it and wrote congress daily in protest, but NEVER even considered buring a flag. Good grief - I had friends and relatives over there.
Sorry I feel so strongly on this but I do. If you think it's ok, then we just disagree - and that's ok too.
Hugs BD |
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Just a little story for you that I'm sure you can appreciate. When I was in the Army, I had the pleasure of being on flag detail (the guys who take the flag up the pole, and take it down and fold it at night) for a short time at both posts that I was stationed at. The first time was during my basic training/AIT time at Ft. McClellan AL. The second time was at Ft. Bragg at the NCO accademy this was during the time that President Nixon passed away, on this particular flag detail I was the NCO in charge of the flag detail, I actually got to do the "folding". It was an amazing honor to be responsible for the academy's flag during that time because the flag had to be at half-mast for 30 days. In order to fly a flag at half mast, you must first run it all the way up, then bring it down to half-mast. We (the flag detail personel) practiced for hours a day in order to get it right. It is a lot harder than it looks. By the end of my time doing this, I was quite the expert on folding the flag and all counts of flag ettiquite. Trust me, I think you may have to look very hard and wide to find someone who respects the flag more than I do. I was willing to give my life for it. But following the principle of how much I value our freedom, I must (in order to be honest with myself) defend the rights of others who do not agree with our government, to make their voice heard and displeasure known. There was a time when I thought flag burners should be shot in public, but my idea of freedom and being able to accept that freedom is a very broad intangilbe thing that can not be molded to fit our own personal wants and desires, has changed my out look quite a bit. It doesn't matter if I agree with those people or not, I took an oath to protect them and their rights given to them under the Constitution and I will always champion freedom for U.S. citizens even as a civilian, it means that much to me. I can totally understand your POV Barb. You know I love and respect you. And I know we can agree to disagree peacefully on this. Just giving everyone a little deeper look into MY persective when it comes to this issue, because I'm sure most of you were shocked to learn that I fall on the side of the argument that I do.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #20 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 10:30am » |
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Just another little side note on the flag, to me it is much more of a disgrace to see a flag hanging in the rain, tattered, not taken down at the proper times of day, left out and neglected by "patriots" than it is to see one burned in protest. If you're gonna fly it, respect it and do it properly or don't bother.
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Brew
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Re: : - (
« Reply #21 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 11:53am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 10:30am, thomas wrote:| Just another little side note on the flag, to me it is much more of a disgrace to see a flag hanging in the rain, tattered, not taken down at the proper times of day, left out and neglected by "patriots" than it is to see one burned in protest. If you're gonna fly it, respect it and do it properly or don't bother. |
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Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain? I'm just askin'.
I thought it was considered disrespectful to fly a flag after sunset if you don't have the means to light it, but I've never heard the one about the rain.
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thomas
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Re: : - (
« Reply #22 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 11:58am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 11:53am, Brewcrew wrote:
Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain? I'm just askin'.
I thought it was considered disrespectful to fly a flag after sunset if you don't have the means to light it, but I've never heard the one about the rain. |
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I meant to say "leave it up 24/7" and forget about it, because "I'm flying the flag at my house, look how patriotic I am". I think you get my drift.
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Brew
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Re: : - (
« Reply #23 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 12:22pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 11:58am, thomas wrote:| I meant to say "leave it up 24/7" and forget about it, because "I'm flying the flag at my house, look how patriotic I am". I think you get my drift. |
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I ask because we fly the flag 24/7 at our house, but we always have a flood light on it that goes on just before dusk and goes off just after dawn. We let it fly in the rain, but take it down if there is the potential for strong winds.
In other words, it's not just stuck up and forgotten.
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ClusterChuck
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Re: : - (
« Reply #24 on: Mar 30th, 2007, 12:30pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2007, 11:53am, Brewcrew wrote:| Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain? |
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I had never heard that either. Now I am going to surf the net, and see if I can find any reference to it.
Chuck (Who agrees to disagree with Thomas, too, and still respect him)
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