Author |
Topic: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there (Read 397 times) |
|
swimchica623
New Board Veteran
Get hit. Hit back harder. That's life.
Gender: 
Posts: 218
|
 |
no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« on: Mar 11th, 2007, 7:49pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
I was talking to my friend just now who is a nurse getting her highest level nursing degree (she's in WA so its different on the west cost...ARNP or something like that?) anyway she was telling me she was reading about nonorganic headaches and it discussed cluster headaches briefly which of course made her think of me. She was copying notes from a lecture she missed and here is what it said:
1. Ibuprofen is the first-line drug.
2. If it doesn't work use narcotics.
3. No mention of even at least o2 or verapamil.
WHAAAAAAAAAT???????
I pity anyone who gets clusters in Washington if that is how they are training their medical personnel.
PF wishes everyone.
Lisa
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
Kevin_M
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
withered branches grow green again.
Gender: 
Posts: 6184
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #1 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 8:02pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 11th, 2007, 7:49pm, swimchica623 wrote:notes from a lecture...
1. Ibuprofen is the first-line drug.
2. If it doesn't work use narcotics. |
|
Sounds like advice for those unable to get out of attending the lecture.
|
| « Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2007, 9:08pm by Kevin_M » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Lizzie2
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
"L'Chaim"~Hebre w Toast~"To Life"
 
Gender:
Posts: 4458
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #2 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 10:06pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Lisa,
When I was in nursing school, I was accepted into the honors program, and we had to do a huge project. Mine was entitled, "More Than Just a Headache: Improving the Quality of Migraine and Headache Education for Nursing Students" - now this was just the undergraduate level of nursing, but it included 6 power point presentations. I ran a pre-survey, then a general intervention presentation, then a post-survey. I also had power point presentations on pathophysiology, nursing management, and pharmacology. I had an additional supplemental pharm packet which took select drugs from each category and went over them in detail...
I took a lot of crap from other students about this stuff at times. It was then that I learned that sometimes people are REALLY mean - and very insensitive, and what sucked the most was that it came from people who were going into nursing - they were supposed to be the most compassionate, and instead some of the comments I read on my surveys made me cry. BUT - I stuck with it - the ultimate goal of educating future nurses was sooooo much more important than the horrible way they were treating me. (Not all - but of course the bad sticks with ya!)
In nursing school, we didn't learn a lot about headaches, but basically they only covered 3 drugs: imitrex, DHE, and sansert. Now - sansert isn't even available in the United States anymore, except through compounding pharmacy but is definitely NOT a first line preventive, and if they're only going to teach about 3 headache drugs, sansert shouldn't be on the list. Imitrex and DHE are good drugs, but certainly not representative of the entire picture. I raised my hand and asked my prof, "What about preventive drugs?" She then replied (this is a woman with a doctorate), "That's only for special cases like YOU." Uhhhhh.
So you see where my motivation came from.
The main points I was trying to emphasize were first off that better migraine and headache education for nursing students doesn't need to take more time - it just needs to be BETTER! Throw out the inaccurate or insignificant things and replace it with the important stuff. And also - they thought headache info was only important for those who worked in the field. I wanted to get them to understand that this info is relevant to EVERYONE - say you work in post-op and your patient comes out of the OR with a wicked headache. Say you're on the cardiac floor and your patient has a headache? Peds? Kids get headaches.... Maternity? Spinal headaches or hormonal migraines and so on.... It's important for EVERYONE to know about!
It's very sad how poor the education is out there for health care professionals. Doctors usually get 1 day or a few hours on headache education - and that's even at Jefferson where there is a world-reknowned headache center and our specialists teach the class. After graduating nursing school, I was invited to guest-lecture on that topic when they covered it in nursing school, but then the professor who taught the course changed, and I haven't had a lot of time or energy to persist in getting permission to teach it. It's just soooooo important......
Hugz,
Carrie 
*Edited to clarify the comment I made about the availability of sansert. *sigh*
|
| « Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2007, 11:26pm by Lizzie2 » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
BarbaraD
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Hugs to ya
Gender:
Posts: 5164
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #3 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 10:21pm » |
Quote Modify
|
You got that one right Lizzi....
My daughter-in-law is an RN working in a pain management clinic -- and she doesn't have a friggin' clue. I asked her how many CH patients they had and she didn't know and didn't know how they were treating them. And this is a woman who has been around me for about 15 years or so and watched me go thru hits.
tonight she sorta blew up at me (I was just coming down off a 10) and told me if my neuro didn't do something I should go to someone who could. DUH!!! Now this neuro, I've been with for about 10 years - he has migraines and keeps up with all headache research and can about quote you chapter and verse on Goaldsby's research. He treats about 40 CHers (most of whom I've sent to him) and because he can't "cure" me, I'm supposed to go find someone who can  give me a break!!!
Off the soapbox for now...
Hugs BD
|
|
IP Logged |
What don't kill ya, Makes ya stonger!
|
|
|
TonyG1
Guest
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #4 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 10:26pm » |
Quote Modify
 Remove
|
on Mar 11th, 2007, 10:21pm, BarbaraD wrote:You got that one right Off the soapbox for now...
Hugs BD |
|
Barbara -- I'll loan you mine ... 
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Lizzie2
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
"L'Chaim"~Hebre w Toast~"To Life"
Gender:
Posts: 4458
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #5 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 10:41pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hey Barb,
If I had a dollar for every time someone told me that I should change neuros because I'm not any better, I'd be rich!! What they don't get is that it is not my doctor - it's my body! Lots of people say, "I don't understand why they can't fix this..."
Think it's because your "standard" tension headache is fixable? One wonders.....
I know people like to be able to "fix" things - so I guess that's their way of trying to fix my frustration. Today this other nurse at work told me I need to go off all my meds and give it to Jesus. And she also said that if we all had tests, they'd find something wrong with all of us. First off, I've gone off meds before - and I pray to God every day about all this! And secondly, I didn't just go to the doc, feeling well, and have them run tests to find this stuff. I have several major health issues that seriously decrease the quality of my life. I was ready to cry out of frustrating by the end of it.
I've been having a REALLY bad time with the headaches lately - and my reserve to deal with it is about nil... I'd give anything to have them go away, and I know people mean well when they suggest things to try (oh..have you tried accupuncture? have you tried herbs? have you tried....insert whatever here...?) And they get this look in their eye as if they've just discovered the cure - the one thing I haven't done that HAS to be the answer. Well - after over 6 years of the constant migraine and over 3 years of chronic clusters, I've tried almost every random thing out there. Trust me when I say I wouldn't want to leave a stone unturned on this topic.
I know they mean well, but it gets so frustrating - they just want it to go away, though. It's just that they don't realize we hear the same thing from lots of other people all the time - they aren't the only one to ask about the latest random treatment idea.....
Hugz,
Carrie
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Dragnlance
New Board Hall of Famer
Monster bait
Gender:
Posts: 1129
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #6 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 11:01pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I now work in a hospital, and you would not believe the "deer in the headlights" looks I get when I mention cluster headaches, and treating them with oxygen.
I still thank God for this place, where cluster information is so readily available. I refer doctors to this site all the time. I have no idea if they actually come here or not.
I hope they do.
Lance
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
BB
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 0
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #7 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 1:59am » |
Quote Modify
|
That doesnt mean they are bad doctors, that means they are doctors who hadnt been trained with the correct information. Big difference.
Annette
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Callico
New Board Hall of Famer
Proud Dad of a US Marine!
Gender:
Posts: 1395
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #8 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 3:19am » |
Quote Modify
|
Annette, I agree with you to a point. They only become bad doctors when then refuse to listen to the patient who tries to refer them to the proper information and training. Unfortunately, there are to many who just can't be bothered to go beyond the little, insuffient, and outdated material they were taught in med school.
Thank God for the ones who will work with us and do what it takes to learn. (Like my new Neuro!)
Jerry
|
|
IP Logged |
"When He acts on the left, I cannot behold Him; He turns on the right I cannot see Him. But He knows the way that I take; when He has tried me I shall come forth as gold." Job23:9,10
|
|
|
BB
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 0
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #9 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 3:24am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 12th, 2007, 3:19am, Callico_Kid wrote:Annette, I agree with you to a point. They only become bad doctors when then refuse to listen to the patient who tries to refer them to the proper information and training. Unfortunately, there are to many who just can't be bothered to go beyond the little, insuffient, and outdated material they were taught in med school.
Thank God for the ones who will work with us and do what it takes to learn. (Like my new Neuro!)
Jerry |
|
Ditto Jerry!
Thats why I am on a quest to educate as many of my colleagues as possible.
However, you can drag a horse to water but you cant force it to drink. The best thing to do is to make those uncaring, backwards doctors known publicly then boycott them.
Annette
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
swimchica623
New Board Veteran
Get hit. Hit back harder. That's life.
Gender:
Posts: 218
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #10 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 2:20pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 12th, 2007, 1:59am, BB wrote:
That doesnt mean they are bad doctors, that means they are doctors who hadnt been trained with the correct information. Big difference.
Annette |
|
Yeah but how good can you be when you aren't trained with the right information? Yes there is another component to being a good doctor I agree with you COMPLETLEY there but you can't be a good doctor if you aren't trained with the right information.
Oh and Carrie, very well-said. I can't believe your prof singled you out like that!!!!!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
DonnaHar
Guest
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #11 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 2:53pm » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
My first 1-1/2 years in our local hospital were spent working as an ER Registrar. During this time, I registered several people who I knew had cluster headaches. Naturally, I couldn't say a word about anyone's reason for being there, so it would just eat me up when (1) It was verbalized that they were drug seekers, (2) They were treated with pain meds and sent home to follow up with their GP, who knew nothing about ch in the first place. (3) They were left in a dark room for a good hour before being seen and by that time the head pain had subsided. This actually happened to me a few times when I got hit with a Kip 10 and had a friend drive me to the hospital and talk for me as I couldn't.
I tried to approach 2 docs that I knew pretty well with the subject of CH.......only to recieve the "who do you think you are talking to" cold shoulder.
I agree that these are not "bad" doctors. After working there for 6 years, last being a cardiac monitor tech, I have seen the decline in good, caring and educated nurses leaving in droves. The ER patients fill the rooms and line the halls, and the waiting room has an at least 3 hour wait. I went in with atrial fib, was Triaged and sat in the waiting room for 2 hours before going to the back. All in all, it was about 5 hours before I was cardioverted with Corvert.
When we opened our surgical Heart Center, I worked in the Cardiac Step Down Unit. Our best PCU nurses were sent to the XXXX Heart Center for 6 weeks of specialized training. Our new team of Cardiac Surgeons, Interventionalists and ARNP's were the cream of the crop. Most of them are still here, but every single nurse that received specialized training has moved on, leaving that unit under the care of PCU nurses.
This leaves the Docs with less communication with nurses who know when to call the doc....nurses who know how to administer and calculate the proper drips.....good Hospitalists going into private practice and leaving the ER to new docs who don't have the diversified experience that we need.
Who do I blame? Administration. Period. I've seen a wonderful, brilliant and compassionate Cardiac Clinical Director break down in tears when a patient ratio that should have been 4 to 1 got up to 9 to 1. All of a sudden, this became acceptable. Why? Shortage of nurses. Why? They cannot properly handle the patient load.......they literally run from one crisis to another....they also do not want to lose their licenses. Why? Administration allowed it and put a freeze on hiring.
It's a snowball effect that is still gathering speed.
If I need to be hospitalized, I don't know where I'd go.
All that said, I do see a wee bit of progress in the research and treatment of cluster headaches. When mine first started back in the early 60's, ch was unheard of. There were no meds, except Sansert and Codeine (the first a horrible drug and the second wouldn't help anyway). A few years later, it was labeled Horton's Cephalgia and we were offered an antihistimine which didn't help me. I went the whole 28 years without meds.
Today we do have a few meds that help some people. It's a far cry from what we need and too many still go undiagnosed, but the world is becoming aware of CH....finally.
OUCH and ch.com have made a big impression on reachers and, to some degree, the doctors who do their homework and also listen to their patients (again, I think time is a factor here). I've recently read that the average time a doc spends with his/her patient is 8 minutes. Our hospital owns and operates several walk-in-clinics and again, Administration wants quantity, or else.
Our only hope is to keep on doing what we are doing....getting the word out.
(The mad viking is one of my heros!)
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
BarbaraD
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Hugs to ya
Gender:
Posts: 5164
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #12 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 3:24pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Nursing has changed so much over the years. Back when I was in nursing school (back in the 60s) we were taught that TLC goes a lot further than drugs a lot of the time. And listening to the patient was routine.
Doctors "listened" to the nurses who got to know the patients and we did paperwork when we needed to sit down. Nurses went with docs on rounds and KNEW what the doctor ordered. ER was for emergencies and when one came in - you tended to it "NOW" not 5 hours later.
But that was back in the days when we didn't have all these lawsuits and a thousand tests to find out the patient had a head cold. Insurance companies didn't tell the docs how to practice or what to order. We only took meds when we needed them and if you called your doc - he called you back. A docs were taught the WHOLE anatomy - not just "parts". One stop shopping and all that.
My GP that I've had for years (who just retired) got a long interview from me the first time I went to him. He actually knew how to read blood tests, x-rays, etc and we didn't have to go "out" for second opinions (I always gave him mine). He was honest enough to tell me he didn't know much about CH, but over the years between me and the neuro he got educated.
Now I've got to find a new doc and am not looking forward to the experience.
Seems like the more advanced we get the further behind we are.
Hugs BD
|
|
IP Logged |
What don't kill ya, Makes ya stonger!
|
|
|
BB
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 0
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #13 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 4:44pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 12th, 2007, 2:20pm, swimchica623 wrote:
Yeah but how good can you be when you aren't trained with the right information? .... you can't be a good doctor if you aren't trained with the right information.
|
|
There are a lot more to being a good doctor than just being trained with the right information. How many doctors out there whom you have met who are very knowledgeable on medical information but are absolute pricks when it comes to bedside manners? How many doctors whom you have met who originally admitted to not knowing much about CH but became very good at it later through learning?
If you are a good doctor to start with, even if you had not been trained with the right information, you can learn and find out, just like Barbara's old GP.
I wasnt trained with the right information on CH either, but I have learnt a lot on my own incentives and would challenge anyone calling me a bad doc
Annette
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Brew
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Low Four!
Gender:
Posts: 6515
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #14 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 5:37pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Good doctoring is more about art than it is science.
Why do you think they call it "practicing medicine?" It's because nobody's perfected it.
It's first and foremost about being a good human being. There are prick doctors because they are pricks to start with. These are the ones that forget this part of the Hippocratic Oath:
Quote:
To practice and prescribe to the best of my ability for the good of my patients, and to try to avoid harming them. |
|
|
|
IP Logged |
Always remember that you're unique, just like everyone else.
|
|
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
  
Gender:
Posts: 14968
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #15 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 8:15pm » |
Quote Modify
|
In 1978, I went to a truly bad doctor for a Inderal refill (it helped me) as my neurologist was out of town. This bottom feeder was also a neurosurgeon and loved to practice on newbie patients.
Anyway, I got the Inderal as long as I took half a dozen PITA tests. While I told him all about my CH and my epilepsy, he ignored anything I had to say and proposed exploratory brain surgery. Right.... and the thing that bothers me to this day is that I knew better because I had seen a lot of neurologists over the years and wasn't scared of CH nor epilepsy. I knew what was going on.....not much in treatment in 1978 anyway. He was a creep and still practices here. What a shame.
Charlie
|
|
IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Brew
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Low Four!
Gender:
Posts: 6515
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #16 on: Mar 12th, 2007, 8:32pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Mar 12th, 2007, 8:15pm, Charlie wrote:In 1978, I went to a truly bad doctor for a Inderal refill (it helped me) as my neurologist was out of town. This bottom feeder was also a neurosurgeon and loved to practice on newbie patients.
Anyway, I got the Inderal as long as I took half a dozen PITA tests. While I told him all about my CH and my epilepsy, he ignored anything I had to say and proposed exploratory brain surgery. Right.... and the thing that bothers me to this day is that I knew better because I had seen a lot of neurologists over the years and wasn't scared of CH nor epilepsy. I knew what was going on.....not much in treatment in 1978 anyway. He was a creep and still practices here. What a shame.
Charlie
|
|
In other words, not only was he a prick of a doctor, he was a prick of a human being. There are a certain number of them that keep forgetting the for the good of my patients part.
Or never learned it in the first place.
|
|
IP Logged |
Always remember that you're unique, just like everyone else.
|
|
|
Gator
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 4556
|
|
Re: no wonder there are so many bad drs out there
« Reply #18 on: Mar 13th, 2007, 4:58pm » |
Quote Modify
|
This might say a lot, too.
Quote:| Response rates were 35% to 40%. |
|
60% to 65% of doctors couldn't be bothered to answer the survey.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Member Map
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print
test rss