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Jonny
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9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:06pm » |
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March 4, 2001....6 mos. before 9/11... The Lone Gunmen series aired on FOX TV. The pilot episode of this X-Files spinoff was about a commercial airliner ...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b02_1172269144
This is fucked up!
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JeffB
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #1 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:32pm » |
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Just shows that we need to be more proactive than reactive.
imo
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #2 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:42pm » |
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Jonny,
Forgive me, but I'm can't figure out what is 'fucked up'? Do you mean that it's fucked up that someone thought of it before it happened? Or are you saying something else? Is it fucked up that something was in a *fictional* TV show that we didn't notice and launch a full-scale investigation? Really dude, I'm not attacking you or anything like that, I just can't figure out what's fucked up about a TV show having a fictional story line. Is it their fault that parts of the story became reality? Do you think it happened because of the show? Sorry for all the questions man.
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Jonny
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #3 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:45pm » |
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Its fucked up because it was on tv and six months later it happened.....thats about it for my thinking....LOL 
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Guiseppi
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #4 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:46pm » |
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My daughters...(honest it wasn't me I'm too old ) were big "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" Fans. They had to cancel the season finale one year because it was all about a fictional high school getting shot up and bombed. They filmed it just before the whole series of school shootings starting with Columbine.
I think maybe what Johnny means by f@#ked up is it's scary/weird how much our thirst for violence on tv mirrors our real life. But I'm just guessing. It would make an interesting thesis for someone smarter then me to figure out.
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JeffB
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #5 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:47pm » |
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Here's my 2 cents, Shawn. If 3-4 fucking writers can sit around a table and think of shit like this, why can't the Rand Corporation or someone in the the friggin pentagon come up with the same stuff?
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Charlie
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #6 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:56pm » |
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I'm sure the whole this was considered way back when it was built but certainly not on its scale. It's the suicide aspect that is different.
Charlie
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #7 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:11pm » |
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Jonny... ya I guess it's just f'd up in general.
Jeff,
I participated in a security event, deep under the ground in Virginia, where we did *exactly* that. We dreamed up ways that our country could be attacked in significant ways. Chaos, disruption, fear, terror... nothing was out of the question. Our job was to dream up these scenarios and dream up a risk mitigation plan for each scenario. Some of the possible attacks were cheap, easy to carry out, and would cause a lot of grief and terror. I would say there were no less than 1000 vectors considered, and the target lists numbered in the thousands.
I can tell you that more than one of the scenarios has already come to pass. I won't say which, and I won't elaborate on the others either. However, I do have a question for you.
Assuming that the Rand folks were there, and assuming that the appropriate highest level of government officials were also there (they were), how do you propose that they pick the scenarios to immediately start mitigating? Seriously, how do you pick? Do you say, 'Defend against all of them!'? If so, I hope you are ready to work a little harder for the government, since it would take more than 100% tax on your income to pay for all of that 'protection'. At some point, you have to decide what to defend against. I'm here to tell you, you can possibly do it all, so you have to pick.
Ya, we saw 2-3 references to that sort of attack in *FICTIONAL* stories. OK. So, do we start reading all of the Tom Clancy novels and pretend that those are real threats too? Where do you propose we draw the line?
It's a serious question, not trying to pick a fight.
-Shawn
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| « Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:11pm by fubar » |
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Kevin_M
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #8 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:14pm » |
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1914 [United Kingdom] H.G. Wells published "The World Set Free", in which he wrote about the creation of atomic weapons, their use and impact on the political world. The novel is significant due to its political and technical accuracy. It is one of the first written predictions of atomic weapons.
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BlueMeanie
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #9 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:21pm » |
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Agree Shawn,
People seem to think we should be ready for any and every scenerio. It's impossible. All we and the government can do is keep our eyes and ears out for trouble. Anyone can predict a disaster.
On another related topic. Did anyone hear about the terrorist they just caught 7 miles from MY HOUSE on Tuesday ? The FBI raided this house. They took a young male terrorist in custody and sent him to Cleveland where his other two counterparts where caught. This guy is a US citizen and was going to school here.
Makes ya wonder how many more our out there living amoungst us. Pretty scary stuff. Oh, by the way, lets' not profile o.k.
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Mac_Muz
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #10 on: Feb 24th, 2007, 9:39pm » |
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And I thought not thinking was my specialty...... Who would have guessed I would have competion? Mac 
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Ree
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #11 on: Feb 24th, 2007, 11:48pm » |
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I too think that sometimes television gives ideas to the wackos. Is that what jonny meant? That maybe the idea was copied from this story line? ree
Ree who heard from her soldier finally tonight and am walking on air... but don't try this at home...lols
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artonio7
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #12 on: Feb 24th, 2007, 11:54pm » |
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on Feb 24th, 2007, 11:48pm, Ree wrote:
Ree who heard from her soldier finally tonight and am walking on air... but don't try this at home...lols |
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Sweet!!!! Still in my prayer.
with warm regards,
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Kevin_M
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #13 on: Feb 25th, 2007, 10:18pm » |
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Unrelated but along similar lines, in 1944 during WWII the Allies had a plan called "Aphrodite" or "Weary Willie" where old war-weary bombers were loaded with explosives and guided by escort aircraft and then remote controlled into industrial sites as part of the "Crossbow" campaign against V-1 and V-2 sites.
A half dozen missions but none successful and several pilots were killed, one being Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., older brother of the Pres. He took off in a navy B-24 loaded with 21,000 pounds of high explosives on Aug. 12, 1944. Before he and the copilot could turn the plane over to the two control planes that would guide it to the target, a V-2 launch site in France, and bail out, the bomber exploded.
(a movie depicting the story was made in the 70's.)
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| « Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2007, 6:47am by Kevin_M » |
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JeffB
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #14 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 11:05am » |
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on Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:11pm, fubar wrote:Jonny... ya I guess it's just f'd up in general.
Jeff,
I participated in a security event, deep under the ground in Virginia, where we did *exactly* that. We dreamed up ways that our country could be attacked in significant ways. Chaos, disruption, fear, terror... nothing was out of the question. Our job was to dream up these scenarios and dream up a risk mitigation plan for each scenario. Some of the possible attacks were cheap, easy to carry out, and would cause a lot of grief and terror. I would say there were no less than 1000 vectors considered, and the target lists numbered in the thousands.
I can tell you that more than one of the scenarios has already come to pass. I won't say which, and I won't elaborate on the others either. However, I do have a question for you.
Assuming that the Rand folks were there, and assuming that the appropriate highest level of government officials were also there (they were), how do you propose that they pick the scenarios to immediately start mitigating? Seriously, how do you pick? Do you say, 'Defend against all of them!'? If so, I hope you are ready to work a little harder for the government, since it would take more than 100% tax on your income to pay for all of that 'protection'. At some point, you have to decide what to defend against. I'm here to tell you, you can possibly do it all, so you have to pick.
Ya, we saw 2-3 references to that sort of attack in *FICTIONAL* stories. OK. So, do we start reading all of the Tom Clancy novels and pretend that those are real threats too? Where do you propose we draw the line?
It's a serious question, not trying to pick a fight.
-Shawn
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A bunch of Arabs getting flight training, Intel agencies working and talking to each other, are just a couple of things that could have been looked into. But you have pretty much proved that we will most likely act after the fact. I know we have thwarted some things, but I think we still need to be more pro active.
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #15 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 12:57pm » |
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on Feb 26th, 2007, 11:05am, JeffB wrote:
A bunch of Arabs getting flight training, Intel agencies working and talking to each other, are just a couple of things that could have been looked into. But you have pretty much proved that we will most likely act after the fact. I know we have thwarted some things, but I think we still need to be more pro active. |
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1> The activities you mention were noticed. I think the breakdown in information sharing, combined with inter-agency politics is well documented in the 911 Commission Report. Bottom line, that attack was successful.
2> No country can promise an attack-free existence. Attacks are going to happen eventually. One cannot criticize the US for acting "after the fact"... what would be the alternative? Not acting?
3> It weakens security when every successful prevention of an attack is fully disclosed to the public (which includes the enemy). In other words, the average US citizen has no clue how many threats have been neutralized in any given week. They hear about failures, not successes, and that's just the way it is. As a result, they see many of the measures taken as ineffective.
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Mac_Muz
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #16 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 1:30pm » |
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Fubar, I agree with you. The possiblities are endless, and so there isn't much you can do with no warning.
The warning comes as BOOM somewhere, but still I think the Feds have a responcibilty to use what ever info they come by, and screening out the most likely for the least likey just plain isn't going to work..
A fed program of looking into WHO is taking lessons and for what when and where might help.
Perhaps a program of a terror team of USA citizens acting as terrorists made of current or x military, making simulated attacks with a creativity unlike fedral, which likely has been and is being done and I just am not aware....
I have no doubt books, movies and the like, give terrorists good, no great ideas to feed from as well.....
I have more than a few ideas myself, but won't post them openly.... I think one man with certain resurces could create a havoc like no one has ever seen in the states before. Mac
ps: jonny I was just messin around wichya. I see your point.
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #17 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 2:37pm » |
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on Feb 26th, 2007, 1:30pm, Mac_Muz wrote:Perhaps a program of a terror team of USA citizens acting as terrorists made of current or x military, making simulated attacks with a creativity unlike fedral, which likely has been and is being done and I just am not aware....
I have no doubt books, movies and the like, give terrorists good, no great ideas to feed from as well.....
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Ironically, that was the subject of a recent "The Unit" episode. Not a bad show, that one.
-Fu
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Mac_Muz
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #18 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 3:01pm » |
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Fu, I don't understand, it that something on the tv? "Unit"?
I am one of those kooks who isn't willing to trade Liberty for Security. Too many flaws in that idea to suit me. I dream up ways to see as the enemy and to know thyne enemy better, and to take that dream and make it be something I could use against the enemy.
All enemies, including the Ch. In other threads I am seeking info on How To bring on a Ch. Not being a total glutton for punishhment once I find a trigger, or semi trigger as I understand it now, I do what ever it is once if it caused pain.
Now I don't pretend to understand what causes Ch, but when it comes to a terrorist I have a pretty good handle on it.. I can see certain US policy that would anger some muslim radicals pretty easy...
In turn I have come to understand why they create attacks, although I don't agree with the methods used.
I can only wonder the case senario's we use, because we Americans don't consider being a suicide bomber very well. So while we can inspect the act of terror, we fail at the point where the methods begin.
I consider the air plane attacts as bombings which in effect they are.
I am only a poor private citizen, with no means and or team to brain up as one... These are my personal private wonderments only, and I have no meaning to be telling anyone what they should do.
The point being we must somehow learn to think like the enemy, to detor the enemy.
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #19 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 3:43pm » |
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"The Unit" is a show on TV. Fiction, about an elite unit in military that is assigned to do special ops. The episode I was talking about had them at a global conference of elite units (from different countries)... the purpose being to have 'games' against each other to sharpen their skills. In this episode, "The Unit" had to be the terrorists and devise ways to hijack a subway control station and kidnap some banker guy. It was a lot like the scenario you imagined.
It's a tough question for the people... how much (if any) freedom to you sacrifice in return for security. No matter where you fall on that issue, the fact is we all give up freedoms every day. You aren't generally free to carry weapons in public, for example. You have to get a license (at the very least) but for most people, it's a complete no-no. So, you can't argue that it's black-and-white. Freedoms are lost in the name of security all the time.
History shows us, time and again, that the fears of the public can be fanned into paranoia, and that in turn can translate to complete control by the State. Not good. I agree, it's a sticky wicket.
Add to that the fact that, with great power comes great responsibility. Responsibility NOT to incite panic. Responsibility to spend your tax dollars wisely. Responsibility to investigate and correct mistakes. And so on.
My rules to live by, in order to maintain my sanity:
1) Don't believe it just because it's in the news
2) Never, ever believe you have been told the whole story, no matter who is telling the story
3) Know that the folks who have been assigned the task of providing protection are doing the best job they can
4) Nothing is ever as simple as it looks
5) The bad guys are just as smart as we are
Keep that in mind whenever you are about to blow up about some apparent stupidity, and it might be easier to swallow.
Also, not to pick on you Mac, but the US does not create terrorists. Every person on this planet makes their own choices. If some not a very nice person decides he is better off by blowing himself up to make a point, you cannot tell me that the US put him up to it.
We offend radicals by merely existing. We enable the leaders of radical movements to recruit (possibly) by responding to the radicals, but it has to be obvious by now that this is *exactly* part of their plan. The fact that we manage to blame ourselves... well that's part of the plan too, I'm afraid.
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Mac_Muz
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #20 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 6:14pm » |
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The one part to debate for me is this:
"Also, not to pick on you Mac, but the US does not create terrorists."
The USA is at part responcible for Timothy McViegh. While he had different reasons and was not a sucide bomber he was a terrorist, and American born, raised, all home grown, so in a way we do create terrorists.
I agree with every other comment.... I am no terrorist either.
I have perhaps an odd hobby, ending with being a historical re-enactor for the French and Indian War. At 55 I am fairly fit other than these blasted to hell CH's.
So I am an all weather warrior in circa 1758, and not dressed overly well at times being in more paint than clothing even in snow.... Not for public battle is anything goes 24/7, and it seems the British side has had more than a few problems with my circa 1758 persona terrorist manners....
Everything is simulated so no one gets hurt, but the cold, rain, snow is very real, and at real locations such as Lake George Ny "Lac du St Sacrement"
Of course maybe there is something to being on the French side, as we tend to be older, and perhaps a bit more woods wise. Over years of doing this I have become rather good, and can get in and get back out making "kills' directly in the british camps...
I don't know if you can view this as valid, but when I tap someone on the shoulder out of nowhere, raking a finger under his chin as a blade, I see the terror showing in those eyes. (remarkably this does feel quite real and not at all like playing as children)
Events like these, of which there are many have created a reputation I live with, and also appear to give me insite I might not have if I didn't live in 3 centuries at one time.
That too might be though of as crazy talk, but let me go on just a bit... For better than 25 years I have been into woodland skills, making stone tools, to make other things with, such as food, fire, potable water, clothing, cordage, containers, and every other need except currency man has.
Later: 1800-1840 I do forging, leather work, and then with the need for currency make Trade Silver with sterling as accurately as I can to the original, less the makers marks which are mine made as if they were made then.
This is the way the muslim radical lives today practicly.
So while it is only my personal belief to myself, I can fairly say I understand a part of the mind set.
SO when we modern Americans that can not fathom becoming a suicide bomber, which I can't, I wonder about any other American working out How To create a theoretical attack, for learning purposes....
No American I ever knew would consider suicide as a method of war before he got hurt so bad that he didn't care.
I understand American Military Men have been killed to save the lives of others, buy jumping on handgrenades and the like, but none of them set out to do so first.
Perhaps such a mind set can not be made, and then we can't inspect in detail of how to defend for it....
Would the mind set be valid if you knew you wouldn't die? Could the senario be created and still be valid?
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fubar
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #21 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 6:54pm » |
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I may have been misunderstood when I said the US does not create terrorists.
What I mean is, a terrorist becomes a terrorist because of their own belief system. We do not turn them into terrorists. Even McVeigh had his reasons to be a terrorist, but it wasn't because of the US government. It was because he believed differently. There is a real difference. I may disagree (in a huge way, let me say) with our system of taxation (I got f'ing reamed to the tune of over $500K, so I have reason to be pissed off) but I'm not about to express my opinion by blowing up a building. The US didn't create McVeigh anymore than they created Charles Manson.
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Mac_Muz
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #22 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 7:33pm » |
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Oh! I think I just be be a bit pissed to at a 500K IRS bill....
It was the experience you had that I was wondering if there was another answer too. Perhaps I am in error and have cross read quotes, leading me to think you worked in the think tank, seeking ways to solve terror problems at home.
I agree Mcviegh was doing his own thing for what ever reasons....
Oh I get fed up with Big Govt too.... You can bet on it, but I am not about to be a terrorist..... err not unless say GWB or other, decides to proclaim Fearless Dictator, and then maybe I wouldn't take it.....There is that clause in the 2nd....
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #23 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 8:11pm » |
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The tax bill and my work were not exactly related... that's a whole 'nuther story. I did work at the 'think tank', as you call it, but our job was not to prevent anything. Our job was to dream up the attacks, and figure out what (if anything) could be done to mitigate the threats of it happening in the real world. We were not there to debate the policies of the administration, or to debate whether or not they are the root cause of any terrorism.
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Re: 9/11 EVENTS PREDICTED WTC CRASH
« Reply #24 on: Feb 26th, 2007, 9:02pm » |
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on Feb 23rd, 2007, 7:06pm, Jonny wrote:
I am guessing you some how never saw "Loose change"?
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