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Topic: The "Other" NY Times Article (Read 628 times) |
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paulc
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The "Other" NY Times Article
« on: Sep 8th, 2006, 7:37am » |
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Shortcut to: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/washington/08legal.html?th&emc=th
This one scares me too! It woud allow torure, though a euphanism is used and combined with the other article I see a dangerous theme emerging from the GOP and when our survival was really in doubt during WWII, such proposals were not made by the government. When the enemies rights are taken away, so are those of the citizens. I don't think that it is a fantasy that, should laws like this get passed, criticizing those in power will become a crime. If we didn't need such laws during WWII, when we were fighting the Axis (which, at times, had the power to really win the war). America certainly does not need such laws to fight a relatively small number of terrorists who's major weapon is an Ak-47.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2006, 7:49am by paulc » |
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Paul C
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maffumatt
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #1 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 7:57am » |
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PaulC is CHTom. anyone remember him?
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Bob P
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #2 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 8:28am » |
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Quote:International Rules About Soldiers
The Geneva Conventions and supplementary protocols make a distinction between combatants and civilians. The two groups must be treated differently by the warring sides and, therefore, combatants must be clearly distinguishable from civilians. Although this obligation benefits civilians by making it easier for the warring sides to avoid targeting non-combatants, soldiers also benefit because they become immune from prosecution for acts of war.
For example, a civilian who shoots a soldier may be liable for murder while a soldier who shoots an enemy soldier and is captured may not be punished.
In order for the distinction between combatants and civilians to be clear, combatants must wear uniforms and carry their weapons openly during military operations and during preparation for them.
The exceptions are medical and religious personnel, who are considered non-combatants even though they may wear uniforms. Medical personnel may also carry small arms to use in self-defense if illegally attacked.
The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.
Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention.
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The AlQueda/insurgent bunch are not protected by the Geneva Conventions!
Nor are they afforded the right to a trial by their peers. That is a Constitutional right afforded US citizens.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2006, 9:34am by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
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Goblin
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #3 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 8:57am » |
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on Sep 8th, 2006, 7:37am, paulc wrote:America certainly does not need such laws to fight a relatively small number of terrorists who's major weapon is an Ak-47.
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So you are saying IED's and Suicide vests are just a minor inconvience? Also the Airliners hijacked and flown into buildings just a Minor weapon?
The AK is the minor weapon not repeat NOT the major weapon! If given the chance they would use Drity Bombs, Chemicals, Bio weapons also I am guessing also a minor deal? Does anyone else here understand the constitution applies to U.S. citizens, and Legal guests of the country, not Illegals or Terrorists!!!!! As far as I am concerned those terrorists (not following the Geneva Convention) when they Torture and behead prisoners and blow up civilians Can rot in HE11 !!!! Why should we give them rights of a U.S. citizen? Even the Geneva Convention doesnt grant them rights but we are supposed to? Now before you got off half cocked I am talking about the terrorists and so called enemy combatants not the entire Nation of Islam the extremests that uses women and children as shields, and straps bombs onto kids, and attack people even of there own faith in the name of there view of their religion. oh and also applies to us born christian terrorists such as Terry Nichols and such I know how some like to go to the not all terrorists are Muslim thing. If they hide within the population and committ acts of terror they deserve what they get. No pity here sorry!
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Brew
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #4 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 9:46am » |
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on Sep 8th, 2006, 7:57am, maffumatt wrote:| PaulC is CHTom. anyone remember him? |
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Say, I didn't know that. I do, however, know that he doesn't respond to thoughtful, kindly worded PM's.
That kinda pisses me off.
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roy21302
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #5 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 12:45pm » |
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Paul,
It is very easy to sit in your home or office and read articles, or watch News clips on TV of events going on in various parts of the world. The People carrying out these act do not behave within the l rules of engagement and don't seem to have done so since the end of WW11. Since that time the world has seen a growth in the Terrorist, probably starting in Malaya then Veitnam and so forth, their methods of operation have appalled the world for decades and having personnally witnessed their handy work on British Soldiers, US Soldiers, numerous innocent civilian adult Men Women and Children. Having Carried Bloodied bodies of small girls to hospital two at a time, leaving Mum and Dad disemboweled on the floor of their home. I find that I can not agree with your point of veiw on this subject, perhaps some closer contact for you might change your mind--My colleagues I lost would not agree with you either, not even the poor bloody horses I had to shoot when the IRA cowards blew their legs off in Hyde Park. Cheers Roy
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2006, 12:49pm by roy21302 » |
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paulc
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #6 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 2:36pm » |
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When you have American generals speaking out against the proposed laws, then something is rotten in the Kingdom of Bushmark. Anyone who violates American laws receive the same rights whether or not they be citizens, the same as anyone who violates British law Frendh law etc. We can always bring up examples of atrocities-Vietnamese, Cambodian, Arab, English and American-non of them should go unpunished if possible, but we have enough laws to deal with these things without creating draconian measures that do away with the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". I kind of like that idea and don't want to see is done away with-do you? If you do, maybe you should sing a chorus of the old version of "Deutschland Ueber Alles" and remember what kind of justice system that the Nazis had.
Odd, but I haven't seen one post written by an American praising the wonderful system of justice that they have had for over 200 years-what's going on 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2006, 2:40pm by paulc » |
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Jonny
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #7 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 3:03pm » |
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It is up to YOU to educate yourself and then help your doctor plan your treatment. If you just sit down in front of your doctor and say "make me better" you are setting yourself up for a great deal of pain.
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Brew
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #8 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 3:12pm » |
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Refusing to participate.
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Goblin
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #9 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 3:31pm » |
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Yep done TROLL jousting too 
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Charlie
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #10 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 4:28pm » |
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Actually they don't have our rights so detain them like POWS........without torture. That's the problem. We have to live with ourselves. We don't do torture.
Meanwhile.... 
Charlie
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Bob P
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #11 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 5:17pm » |
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I say torture the shit out of 'em before you hang 'em!
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
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Charlie
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #12 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 5:17pm » |
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Sad
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Bob P
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #13 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 7:15pm » |
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Weak
Bob P
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
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Jonny
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #14 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 7:41pm » |
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Both sad and weak even giving the time of day to someone born and raised in the Netherlands that has a problem with American policy
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It is up to YOU to educate yourself and then help your doctor plan your treatment. If you just sit down in front of your doctor and say "make me better" you are setting yourself up for a great deal of pain.
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #15 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 8:36pm » |
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on Sep 8th, 2006, 7:41pm, Jonny wrote:| Both sad and weak even giving the time of day to someone born and raised in the Netherlands that has a problem with American policy |
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Funny, Iraqis say something like that every day.
Maybe the Netherlands should invade the USA.
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"Fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool - can't get fooled again"
Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is stupider than that.
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Jonny
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #16 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 8:51pm » |
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http://tinyurl.com/fvspo
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It is up to YOU to educate yourself and then help your doctor plan your treatment. If you just sit down in front of your doctor and say "make me better" you are setting yourself up for a great deal of pain.
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maffumatt
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #17 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 9:07pm » |
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his plan is working.
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paulc
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #19 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 2:02am » |
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[quote author=paulc
Odd, but I haven't seen one post written by an American praising the wonderful system of justice that they have had for over 200 years-what's going on
[/quote]
My comment about not hearing anything from Americans praising their justice system (above) was not meant to be sarcastic. I sincerely admire the American justice system and remain suprised that no Americans have written any positive comments about it. All that has been written is, essentially, "Shoot 'em all and let god sort them out." It appears to me that those members who have posted about American justice are more than willing to do away with the current system and replace it with one in which people are guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent and that punishment should be carried out before the trial. Fortunately, I think that I can say, with conviction, that most Americans do not feel that way and that it is the same bunch of folks on this board that keep on writing that America should do away with "innocent until proven guilty" and replace it with "guilty until proven innocent" and that torture should be allowed and that those who are not American citizens are not entitled to the proctections afforded by the Constitution. I am thankful that most Americans do not feel that way and that we only have a Facist few on this board who do. There also appears to be an undercurrent of racism amongst those who wish to deny fundamental judicial rights to "terrorists" who, after all, are, for the most part not white. Maybe before commenting you should actually READ the articles and what the Generals have to say in objection to the Bush proposals-or are the Generals soft-on-terror dirty liberals as well? I'll bet that a lot off you who have written would really like to have a "Night of the Long Knives" and a "Kri-stal Nacht"if you know what they were-you'd actually have to READ some history books to find out, but please, don't tax your minds too much.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2006, 2:05am by paulc » |
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paulc
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #20 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 2:15am » |
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By the way, to the delight of some, this will be my last posting on this subject. I have gotten the information that I need about the feelings of the "core" members of the board and it is what I expected and quite boring. My only regret is that more members did not step up to defend the American system of justice (pre-Georgie Boy Bush). Pity.
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Kirk
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #21 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 8:21am » |
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As soon as you start making some sort of sense. I might be inclined to defend the US judicial system. I think it defends itself quite well.
As for profiling the poor middle eastern folk who happen to come our way. Well it appears there is good reason for that.
I have heard a lot of accusations of torture and brutality on the part of Americans. But for the most part, that seems to be the province of the Arabs and the Persians. Its an aberation amongst Americans. I've seen damned little proof of it, when it comes to the Americans. The Arabs and Persians delight in putting it on TV.
Go away, you are not in full possesion of the facts or choose to ignore them. And at this point are giving aid and comfort to the enemies of my country.
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paulc
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #22 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 10:46am » |
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Had you read the article and listened to Bush's speech the other day, it was reluctently confirmed, couched in double-speak by Bush, that torture was being used, albeit in other countries to which the US secretly flew the prisoners (there was a big stink about that in Europe when it became known, about a month ago, that certain US "diplomatic flights" were being refueled in Europe to continue onwards to these countries with the prisoners on board-this has since stopped). He now claims that such practices have been stopped. When you have US generals speaking out against a Presidential requested bill, you know that this is something big as they are putting their careers on the line. I happen to know General Eric K. Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff, who spoke out against the nonsensical plans for the Iraq War-that not enough troops were being committed, that inadequate plans were made for the post Saddam era, that there would be a guerilla war following our invasion and that the cost in lives and money would make this war unwinnable. He quickly fell out of favor with Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney and company and was placed on the sidelines until his retirement. He was/is a courageious soldier, lost the lower half of his right leg in Vietnam and yet made 4 star general-he is a real patriot and for speaking the truth he was, essentially, kicked out of the Army. Everything that he said would happen has happened in spades. He exposed the incompetence of the Bush administration and especially Rummy, who claimed that we would be "welcome with open arms" and would only be in Iraq for a short time-remember Bush on the aircraft carrier 3 years ago stating that the war was over? You will be hard pressed to find a single general or admiral who believes that this war is can be won (not to mention the seriously deteriorating situation in Afganistan, where the Taliban is staging a very strong comeback-it was relegated as a side show to Iran and now it is coming back to bite the US in the ass). The American military, particularly the Army, is having a very difficult time in Iraq; manpower is so short that soldiers are now serving their 3 tour of duty there in the past 4 years. Should a major conflict break out somewhere else in the world, America does not have the troops to handle it. I do not dislike America or American soldiers, sailors or airmen, but what they are being forced to do by their incompetent civilian leaders is a shame. Even Rummy knows that America can't win this war, but America will not pull out for political reasons, i.e., the upcoming Congressional elections and then the 2008 Presidential Elections-Bush will leave it to THAT president to pull out so that, in his mind, no one can say that "he" lost Iraq (and probably Afganistan). I feel sorry for the American people-their ecomomy continues to be ruined and they continue to lose their sons and daughters in a war that was waged and that continues to be waged to assuage Bush's ego; his own father warned him not to go in there, but he essentially told him to shut up. Why do you think that, after the first Gulf War, America did not march into Bagdhad and take over? It was because Bush Sr., the Europeans and the other Arab nations knew that it would be the mess that it is now. Sadam was contained and couldn't cause any mischief in the region, but now you have a hundred little Sadams, no doubt under several major commanders, causing big problems for the US and the Iraqui people. I am not anti-American, but I am against the useless slaughter of America troops and Iraqui civilians. God bless America and God save the soldiers of America who are being killed and horribly wounded for no reason other than the egos of a group of old men who never served and a President who avoided his responsibilities to serve during the Vietnam War. America has no goal in Iraq except to get out without huritng the Republican Party too much-is that worth the deaths of so many young men and women? I think not.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2006, 10:47am by paulc » |
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Paul C
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chewy
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #23 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 10:55am » |
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For the benefit of new people paulc is our resident troll. He serves no purpose except to confuse, obfuscate and distress posters while providing a wealth of misinformation of his own.
The best response to him is no response. All we do is inform people as best we can that his posts are unsound.
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paulc
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Re: The "Other" NY Times Article
« Reply #24 on: Sep 9th, 2006, 11:10am » |
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For the benefit of new people, chewy cannot write more than two or three sentences in a language that is something like English. His current post was written by someone else and he tends to use if frequently when he disagrees with someone but cannot find the words to express himself. He favors writing posts that lack substance and are not backed up by facts; he likes dogs, which is a positive thing.
Please contribute money to Head Start and other like programs to prevent the continued deterioration of the English language. A wasted mind is a terrible thing.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2006, 11:16am by paulc » |
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Paul C
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