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Topic: Baseball Fans??? (Read 438 times) |
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pfunk
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Just curious? I pose this question as I am watching ESPN and they keep cutting in every time Barry Bonds comes to the plate. And you Bo-Sox fans put aside your hatred for The Babe for just this once. Should we really be celebrating this guy moving into 2nd place on the homerun list? I say NO! Yes, 714 is a huge accomplishment. But, it still is only 2nd place. Because I am a baseball fanatic, I say show me 756 & 757; then I might(emphasis on might) celebrate his accomplishment. Given his recent situation and chemically enhanced allegations I think the * next his name may be well deserved. MY  . Just wondering what some others might think, seeing that there is a huge debate about this issue tearing through the sports world right now.
Pfunk  
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FramCire
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #1 on: May 10th, 2006, 12:32am » |
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They celebrated when he overtook 3rd, why not 2nd.
As for the "aaligations", baseball is full of cheating. The foollowing are just some ways that MLB has had cheating since it's begining:
1. MLB itself.
a. Lowering and raising the mound to help pitchers and hitters.
b. Baseballs with different characteristics that help the ball fly out of the park when the league needed a boost.
c. not allowing black players for many years
2. Individual teams
a. Raising fences
b. Moving fences
c. talking to players they aren't allow to talk to before they are FAs
3. Pitchers
a. steroids
b. putting things on the ball to change how it moves
c. scuffing the ball
d. uppers
e. steroids
4. Hitters
a. pine tar
b. corked bats
c. uppers
d. roids
5. fielders
a. uppers
b. roids
c. phantom tags
d. "proximity" rule at 2B
See, baseball has had many shady dealings (don't forget multiple gambling issues) and cheating (legal and illegal) since the begining of the league. Whether Bonds cheated or not, I would bet most records and HOF resumes were helped by cheating in 1 way or another.
In my eyes, the league has turned a blind eye to it all so why use the * because it should be used most of the time probably.
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cekelle
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #2 on: May 10th, 2006, 12:37am » |
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Everyone loves to hate a winner, and unfortunately he has accomplished quite a goal by allegedly using drugs as an aide whether legal or not. He may have been chemically enhanced during some of those games, but in this day and age, unfortunately many who go unnoticed are also doing the same thing to try to become better than the best. I don't condone it, but he achieved what he has enhanced or not. Just some food for thought. I really don't care for the man one way or another, and I'm not trying to stick up for him.
I'm just a Cardinals fan at heart. Go Cards! 
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| « Last Edit: May 10th, 2006, 12:37am by cekelle » |
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pfunk
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Cool this is the kind of discussion I like. Yes, baseball has had cheating in one form or another since the beginning. But, how many actually went in front of a grand jury, lyed to the grand jury and never got so much as a slap on the wrist for doing it? Not looking for heated arguments, just friendly conversation on these. Because I am in the Phys. Ed. field, topics like this can be very useful/helpful in my classwork and research. Thanks.
Pfunk
P.S. I'm not saying don't celebrate at all but I don't think a Ticker-tape parade is appropriate until maybe he passes "Hammerin' Hank".
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FramCire
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #4 on: May 10th, 2006, 8:45am » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 1:08am, pfunk wrote:Cool this is the kind of discussion I like. Yes, baseball has had cheating in one form or another since the beginning. But, how many actually went in front of a grand jury, lyed to the grand jury and never got so much as a slap on the wrist for doing it? Not looking for heated arguments, just friendly conversation on these. Because I am in the Phys. Ed. field, topics like this can be very useful/helpful in my classwork and research. Thanks.
Pfunk
P.S. I'm not saying don't celebrate at all but I don't think a Ticker-tape parade is appropriate until maybe he passes "Hammerin' Hank". |
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1. We don't know what he said to the Grand Jury since his testimony should be sealed. What has been reported may be accurate but since it is sealed, how can you trust someone who breaks that seal?
2. We don't know what he said was a lie.
3. The government IS investigating whether Bonds lied or not. If he is found to have lied, they probably WILL bring charges.
4. Why is he being called to task when there are tons of players (and ex-players) who have used, tested positive, or admitted to it.
Just some friendly food for thought. I am not a Bonds fan, I just wonder why he is treated this way when guys like Big Mac had andro (which is now banned) sitting in his locker when he gave interviews and his testimony to congress pretty much was admitting he took roids too.
Anyway, I hope Bonds ties Aaron and then retires saying he refuses to break the record.
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Tom K
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #5 on: May 10th, 2006, 8:45am » |
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I'll give you the cheating, Fram, but I still don't think it warrants all the big hubbub. Especially since he isn't planning on going after Hank. His whole thing, until very, very recently, has been to "Knock that white fat guy out of second", his words, not mine. IMHO, Barry doesn't have any respect for the game, it's history, or himself. He can try to dress up his image with his whole, self-produced, Bonds on Bonds, but when you boil it all down, he is still a biggoted asshat...
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FramCire
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #6 on: May 10th, 2006, 8:52am » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 8:45am, Tom K wrote:| I'll give you the cheating, Fram, but I still don't think it warrants all the big hubbub. Especially since he isn't planning on going after Hank. His whole thing, until very, very recently, has been to "Knock that white fat guy out of second", his words, not mine. IMHO, Barry doesn't have any respect for the game, it's history, or himself. He can try to dress up his image with his whole, self-produced, Bonds on Bonds, but when you boil it all down, he is still a biggoted asshat... |
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Why did Bonds agent say that he expects Bond to play NEXT year if he isn't going after the record?
Why do you say he doesn't have respect for the game of baseball? Because he doesn't show respect to Ruth who was not exactly a guy who earned it off the field?
Is he biggoted? Yes. (his father taught him that because of how he was treated) However, did you notice that Bonds was called out by the media because he didn't autograph the ball (713 I think) he hit in Philly. Then the press went off about how he was a serviceman and Bonds should have signed it.
Now, the rest of the story: Bonds took the time to pose for a photo with the guy. When the photo was done, the guy FORGOT to ask him to sign the ball and Bonds had to take off. The guy (on ESPN) said he cared only about getting the photo and he forgot to ask.
So, do you see why Barry might be a little jaded? Even when he does the right thing, the press finds a way to make himout to be the bad guy.
Again, I am no Bonds fan but I think while you talk about Bonds dressing his image, you have to remember that Bond's current image was dressed by a not so friendly media.
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clarence
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #7 on: May 10th, 2006, 9:21am » |
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To say that Bonds using steroids (if he did) is alright, because there is all kinds of other cheating in baseball, seems a little off.
But then again, the biggest story baseball hasn't even been addressed on this thread:
Red Sox 14 Yankees 3
Now that's what I call news! - Take that Potter!
Yankees Suck,
Casey
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| « Last Edit: May 10th, 2006, 9:22am by clarence » |
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Tom K
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #8 on: May 10th, 2006, 9:29am » |
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Ruth was a jerkass off the field, and that doesn't allevate him from inspection. On the field, the guy did twice as much in a shorter amount of time, and pitched in 163 games, with 107 of those being complete games. 17 of those were shutouts and he had an ERA of 2.88. Pretty impressive for a home run hitter. Yes, those were different times, but they were also the time of the "dead" ball. Plus, he wasn't covered in the armor that the guys wear today. Not calling Barry out on the armor because so many are doing the same thing. What I would like to see is someone like Gibson pitch against Barry. Then we would see, not only how well the armor does, but just how bad his elbow is...
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fubar
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #9 on: May 10th, 2006, 12:22pm » |
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I can prove that Barry hit 713 HR so far.
Can YOU prove he took steroids?
Ever since Barry blew off Sports Illustrated's mightier-than-God reporter many years ago, which resulted in a complete hatchet job that the whole media has taken as gospel (Barry is an a-hole, Barry can't get along with anybody, Barry grinds up small children in his protein shakes...) the majority of so-called baseball fans have bought into this BS. Barry is a good guy. He is on a pedestal and there are so many people who want to knock him off. If I was Barry, I'd tell all of you to f-off. His aloof posture is a product of his treatment in the press and by moronic people who can't stand to see his success. WTF is wrong with people?
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kimmiedawn81
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #10 on: May 10th, 2006, 12:45pm » |
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It is true that you can't prove that he took steroids, but it doesn't make me like him any more.
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mynm156
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #11 on: May 10th, 2006, 1:03pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 12:22pm, fubar wrote:I can prove that Barry hit 713 HR so far.
Can YOU prove he took steroids?
His aloof posture is a product of his treatment in the press and by moronic people who can't stand to see his success. WTF is wrong with people? |
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BB is a JERK! ALWAYS HAS BEEN! To his team mates and his FANS! Even in Pittsburg. Just look at how his own team mates have reacted to him over the years.
As far as ROIDS go. I doubt that they will prove anything because they will cop a plea and admit nothing.
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #12 on: May 10th, 2006, 1:07pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 12:22pm, fubar wrote:
Can YOU prove he took steroids?
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Sure, just look at the size of his head!
Also check out the pictures from when he played with Pittsburgh in the '80's and then look at him nowdays, YIKES!
People don't get bigger and stronger as they age unless......
Me thinks you're being awfully naive if you don't think Barroid isn't juiced.
Jim
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #13 on: May 10th, 2006, 1:15pm » |
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Being a life long die hard Cubs fan I care more about the a-hole fan that kept the Cubbies out of the 2003 World Series, and I still want to know why someone hasn't killed the guy yet 
not that i hold grudges or anything .....tim
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fubar
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #14 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:02pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 1:03pm, mynm156 wrote:
BB is a JERK! ALWAYS HAS BEEN! To his team mates and his FANS! Even in Pittsburg. Just look at how his own team mates have reacted to him over the years.
As far as ROIDS go. I doubt that they will prove anything because they will cop a plea and admit nothing. |
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Yeah. Never mind the fact that the whole 'team mate' thing includes a-holes like Jeff Kent, who couldn't stand to share the stage with Barry, broke his own hand f-ing around on a motorcycle (expressly forbid in his contract) then lied about it to make sure he got a paycheck. Still, people take Jeff's side and assume Barry is an ass.
I've met Barry. I had batting practice WITH the Giants. I've talked to many active Giants players and even have spent evenings socializing with Hall of Famer Giants who all love Barry. All of you Barry-haters are simply feeding from the trough of MEDIA BIAS. There is no factual basis for this bias. Barry snubbed SI years ago, and has never granted another interview to them. Because of this, they have written smear piece after piece, and have never forgiven Barry. Fine. What amazes me is the extent to which the public (and most of the rest of the media) believes this crap.
As for Barry's size... I guarantee that NONE of you have ever worked out for one single day as hard as Barry does to maintain his body. How can I say that? Because there are probably 3-4 humans on this planet that work at it as hard as he does, and none of them are on this board.
In the end, I don't give a crap about the roids. Baseball hasn't ever been a bastion of morality, and for Barry to carry the entire burden of the failings of baseball is simply unfair. Put an asterisk next to his name and you will have to do the same to 90% of the records for some reason or another. It becomes moot. He kicked ass and we should be proud of him. He comes from good family and he puts his family WAY ahead of the game of baseball. I guess that makes him an a-hole to some fans.
Some fans cite, as an example of Barry being an a-hole, the fact that he won't give up some of his salary so that the Giants could acquire some talent to push SF into the World Series. This is one of the cases that illustrates my point. For Barry to say, give up a few million dollars (at least) means taking it away from his family simply to pursue a ring for himself and the fans. What would you do? I'd say 'Screw that, the long term security of my family is more important than any trophy.'. That's what Barry is doing, and still he is seen as a Jerk for doing it. I know he would still be seen as a jerk if he did the opposite.
-Shawn
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #15 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:09pm » |
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OK, maybe you are all right, I'm biased because of what the media has said about Bonds...Fine, I'm biased...But here is a simple fact that cannot be argued....IT'S SECOND PLACE! woohoo I'm second  When he breaks first place, give me a call, until then he is only going to be #2.
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clarence
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #16 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:12pm » |
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Schilling vs. Mussina tonight. Should be a good one.
Damn TSN (Canadian equivalent of ESPN) - They almost always only show Jays games...
Whole "local market" thing I guess.
Casey
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #17 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:23pm » |
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1. Yes, the Yankees suck. I think we can all agree on that one!
2. Please name the teammates that have had a problem with Bonds. If you mention Kent, you have rebutted your own point. Kent is well disliked everywhere he plays.
3. Ruth didn't have people throwing mid to high 90s EVERY DAY. Maybe that is why he didn't invent the "armor" that the current players wear.
4. Nobody is saying Bonds is better than Ruth overall. Why did you give us Ruth's resume? However, NOBODY in the history of baseball whose name isn't Barry Bonds has hit 400 HRs AND had 400 SBs. Bonds has 500+ and 500+.
5. I never said using steroids was alright. i just said that putting an * next to him and not next to the scores of other cheaters whose records are in the book is foolish.
6. As for his size. Nutrition and weight training has made amazing strides since Bonds was young. He works extremely hard and thus the added size. Clemens (and MANY others) is also significantly larger now, but noone despises him like they do Bonds. Until people get accurate head measurements and show that it HAS to be roids, that is also not really proff of anything.
7. This thread is awesome. Passionate disagreements in a civil format. Nice to see it is able to be done somewhere. If you went to a sports MB, there would be namecalling and such by now.
8. They celebrated 3rd place with a short interuption. Why not 2nd? BE CONSISTANT MLB.
9. GO RED SOX!
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #18 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:24pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 2:12pm, clarence wrote:Schilling vs. Mussina tonight. Should be a good one.
... |
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I saw Shill pitch a gem against the Brewer's a few years back. 17K, 1 hit shutout. Holy Cow! ESPN called it the one of the top 5 pitching performances ever. Watching his curve and splitter from behind home plate was absolutly amazing!
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pfunk
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on May 10th, 2006, 2:02pm, fubar wrote:
Some fans cite, as an example of Barry being an a-hole, the fact that he won't give up some of his salary so that the Giants could acquire some talent to push SF into the World Series. This is one of the cases that illustrates my point. For Barry to say, give up a few million dollars (at least) means taking it away from his family simply to pursue a ring for himself and the fans. What would you do? I'd say 'Screw that, the long term security of my family is more important than any trophy.'. That's what Barry is doing, and still he is seen as a Jerk for doing it. I know he would still be seen as a jerk if he did the opposite.
-Shawn |
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I really don't think Barry's family has anything to worry about in the security area. I mean the man has played for 19+ years and made God knows how many millions. If he's playing only for himself and the "security of his family that only goes to support the ideas that he has no respect for the game. Any player who says they don't care about winning rings is either lying or selfish and disrespecting the game. I don't really have anything against Bonds but still I say, second is second and until I see 757, I'm not celebrating with or for him.
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pfunk
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One other thing I want to say as I am watching St. Louis play Colorado. I say we stop watching Bonds and pay attention to the Hall of Famer in-the-making, Pujols. That guy is a bad man. If he stays healthy, I think he might make a run at all these records and shut us all up. This comes from a life-long Yankees fan.
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #21 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:44pm » |
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And I still say GO CUBBIES
And if they remain true to form GO BO SOX....tim
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #22 on: May 10th, 2006, 2:59pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 2:43pm, pfunk wrote:| One other thing I want to say as I am watching St. Louis play Colorado. I say we stop watching Bonds and pay attention to the Hall of Famer in-the-making, Pujols. That guy is a bad man. If he stays healthy, I think he might make a run at all these records and shut us all up. This comes from a life-long Yankees fan. |
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You got that right Pfunk....and sorry to hear about the "lifelong Yankee fan" thing When it's all said and done A.P. is going to go down as maybe the best to ever play the game.
I'd like to get into the Barry thing more tonight when I get home from work if ya'll are still going...and btw, this is a great thread!
Jim
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #23 on: May 10th, 2006, 3:03pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 2:23pm, FramCire wrote:| 1. Yes, the Yankees suck. I think we can all agree on that one! |
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Speak for yourself, sock man. Please, a team named after underwear. Only in Boston.
The Yankees. Greatness, win or lose.
Steve
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Re: Baseball Fans???
« Reply #24 on: May 10th, 2006, 3:23pm » |
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on May 10th, 2006, 2:33pm, pfunk wrote:
I really don't think Barry's family has anything to worry about in the security area. I mean the man has played for 19+ years and made God knows how many millions. If he's playing only for himself and the "security of his family that only goes to support the ideas that he has no respect for the game. Any player who says they don't care about winning rings is either lying or selfish and disrespecting the game. I don't really have anything against Bonds but still I say, second is second and until I see 757, I'm not celebrating with or for him.
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Barry has never said a ring wasn't important to him. He says the opposite. He wants it as bad as anybody else and it's the only thing he is still playing for. However, if you had to take away $10 million from your family (no matter how much money you had) for the mere opportunity to get one more player who might simply get injured... come on. How hard of a decision is that? Not to mention, $10 mil doesn't buy much. People want multi-year contracts, especially the hot players. Barry is being as prudent and sensible as any one of us would be in his position.
As for celebrating... hell, why not celebrate a milestone achievement? It may not be first place yet, but it's more than noteworthy.
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