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Topic: Shooting in London (Read 429 times) |
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hdido
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So it turns out that the poor bastard who was killed by the British police-or whoever they were-was a 27yo Brazilian electrician. He was followed, suspected of being a terrorist, because he came out of a building that housed another suspected terrorist. While it is still not clear what happened in the subway, to those of you who have ridden a subway, it is a very noisy place, it would be very difficult to hear someone telling you to stop and if you saw 3 guys in plainclothes, one of whom had a gun, chasing you, you'd probably run too. What is clear and what gets me is that the guy, when he was shot FIVE times in the head at point blank range, was down on the floor, being held there by two of the three pursuers, offering no resistance and then the third, the guy with the gun, put 5 rounds in his head-a bit of overkill. It will be interesting to see what the official investigation comes out with. While it was a tense time, police or other government forces that use deadly force are trained not to overreact-which, IMO, this bunch did. Normal British police rules on the use of firearms are to aim for the chest (or back), but it appears that there is now a "shoot-to-kill" policy; I just hope that this does not mean every "suspect" is killed....not only do the innocent die, as in this case, but unless the suspect is a clear danger, you won't get much intelligence from a corpse. The guy could have been stopped on the street by uniformed cops before he got to the subway as he was followed for quite a distance...I think that it was poor police work all around
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 12:50am by hdido » |
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Jonny
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #1 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 1:25am » |
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Im glad that you was there in person to give that really good description on just what happen that day, John
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hdido
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I got the information from the BBC, from both the TV news and the website. There is a question about whether or not the guy jumped the turnstile, but there is no question that he was followed for several blocks before he entered the subway and that he was pinned down by two of the three policemen involved and not offering any resistance when the third cop shot him in the head. The head of the London Metropolitan Police Force, at a news conference, described the incident as a terrible mistake and totally cleared the guy of any terrorist linked activities. I apologize if I confuse anyone with the facts. I am not of the "shoot first and ask questions later" persuasion and don't have any beef with police, but I am entitled to my opinion. What would you do if you saw 3 guys chasing you with guns? People are known to panic in such situations.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 1:40am by hdido » |
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Jonny
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #3 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 1:37am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2005, 1:34am, hdido wrote:| The head of the London Metropolitan Police Force, at a news conference, described the incident as a terrible mistake |
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Shit happens...better to careful than not...no?
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hdido
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Just saw on the 7AM BBC news that not only was the Brazilian followed on foot for several blocks, but was allowed to board a bus and he rode it to the subway station. What kind of careful is that? If they thought that he was a bomber, to allow him on a bus, two of which were bombed in the two attacks, was insanity. Sorry, but I think that police procedures there need to be seriously reviewed (which they apparently will be) to avoid further incidents like this. Would you say "better safe than sorry" if one of your loved ones were shot and killed like this guy was? I don't think so.
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Jonny
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #5 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 2:27am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2005, 2:21am, hdido wrote:| If they thought that he was a bomber, to allow him on a bus, two of which were bombed in the two attacks, was insanity. Sorry, but I think that police procedures there need to be seriously reviewed . |
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Why the fuck are you telling us this?
Shouldnt you be telling the police in London your thoughts? 
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hdido
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Because I'm naked-see.........
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 3:42am by hdido » |
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Charlie
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #7 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 5:31am » |
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This is horrible.
It's what happens with fear. Frightened people do terrible and sometime irrational things. It's not an excuse, only an explanatioin.
Dismissing it as just one of the breaks, does nothing constructive. It's another example of yahooism. It's a way for many to shunt this kind of thing aside, though.
Charlie
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hdido
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Thank you, Charlie, you make a lot of sense.
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Topical
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #9 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 6:36am » |
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It should be interesting to see what that report says.
A key question is why they decided to follow the person and let him gain access to transportation. I also want to know why he ran like he reportedly did. Maybe he jumped the turnstyle to save money on the fare and ran to avoid getting a ticket. We'll have to wait and see.
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LeLimey
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #10 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 7:17am » |
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Here you go.. here is the full story not what people choose to edit.
http://www.ntlworld.com/news/story_uk.php?page_zone=150.5.1&storyid= 3333069
It IS awful, its a complete tragedy and shouldn't have happend. I know if police with guns told me to stop I wouldn't bloody well run though.
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Topical
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #11 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 7:31am » |
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Still no answers. 
I have to say when the story first broke I thought he was a terrorist. Didn't everyone? The house was under surveillance, he was wearing a long coat when it wasn't needed, running away from the police into the tube. Tragic.
Any word on the bomber suspects they were looking for?
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LeLimey
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #12 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 7:40am » |
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Yes there have been several arrests and a group connected to Al Quaeda have claimed responsibility - thats being "authenticated" now and no.. I have no clue how they check out if something like that is a real claim or not.
I think this is a terrible tragedy but I feel he did bring it on himself. The day after a load of bombings it does not pay to dress up in a big padded ski jacket and run from the police. I stand by what I said on Friday... if I'd been there, on the train he was trying to board.. I'd have been screaming shoot him too.
If that makes me a bad person so be it, I'd sooner be a bad live person than a dead saint
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Jimmy_B.
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #13 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 8:00am » |
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The news is reporting he was an illegal immigrant. Probably one of the reasons he was running.
(edited cause Helen set me straight)
Still all in all...very tense short seconds. It's impossible to "Monday Morning Quarterback". When I was going through Act235 lethal weapons training, they had all sorts of these scenarios...and you have a split-second to make a decision...not days to get all the facts and then make a decision.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 9:09am by Jimmy_B. » |
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Kevin_M
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #14 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 8:01am » |
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Quote:Mr Menezes emerged from a house in Tulse Hill, south London, on Friday morning that was under surveillance because of a suspected link to the attempted bomb attacks. His clothing and behaviour added to the officers' suspicions, police said.
He caught a bus to Stockwell Tube where he was challenged by officers, who told him to stop. The man then bolted down an escalator, according to witnesses.
He apparently tried to get on a train before he was apparently shot five times in the head by an officer with an automatic pistol. |
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From this part of the story, once things had progressed this far and he was told to stop and then ran, the pursuing plainclothed team were an especially trained unit for perhaps terrorist purposes. These are guys that WANT to be the first one in the door when things go down and they simply take care of business very efficiently. Their pursuit was for a strict purpose and probably had their orders and I don't suspect they would be flashing badges, yelling halt, or... asking any questions.
These were not normal policemen, overexuberant after a chase. It was not a matter of stolen goods, money, or drugs, it was a matter of mass killing that was on the minds of the pursuing team of professionals. A team that you are glad they are there when you need them.
This is just my thought, but there are such specially trained units, they would be on "ready" mode during this time and they were on the scene. This situation would be one for them, and once this team pursued the man, his sentence was written.
Kevin M
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 8:46am by Kevin_M » |
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LeLimey
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #15 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 8:17am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2005, 8:00am, Jimmy_B wrote:The news is reporting he was an illegal immigrant. Probably one of the reasons he was running.
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Hi Jimmy!!
No that bit isn't true. He was legitimately here, not an illegal immigrant.
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Jimmy_B.
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #16 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 9:07am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2005, 8:17am, LeLimey wrote:
Hi Jimmy!!
No that bit isn't true. He was legitimately here, not an illegal immigrant.
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Thanks for setting me straight, Helen...there was a time I could believe what I heard on the news. Now they are in such a rush to get a story out there...they don't check the facts.
Jimmy 
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hdido
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I'm amazed that so few will admit that the police "may" have acted inappropriately and virtually no one has expressed regret that an innocent man was killed. I ask again, retorically, why wasn't he stopped before he got on the bus and why was he allowed on the bus if they thought that he had a bomb? There was an interview with some Brazilians in London today on the BBC and the interviewer noted that most Brazilians in England feel cold, even in the summer and that every Brazilian that was interviewed was wearing a coat or a jacket. LeLimey said that she wouldn't run from the police-these police were dressed in scruffy street clothes and one had a gun-I think that it is reasonable to assume that many people would run in such a situation. What really boggles my mind is why shoot him 5 times in the head when he was already down and restrained? What happened was a tragedy and if anyone cares to read the BBC news website, look at the public opinion poll about what occurred-it is split about 50/50 and this incident is causing concern amongst non-white people in England. I hope that the investigation is an honest one. Is wearing a coat in summer and running from guys with guns chasing you a reason to be shot the way that this guy was? He could have been handcuffed when he was down, he was immobilized when he was shot so that even if he had a bomb he couldn't have set it off. I wonder what the reaction of some people would be if the cops had done this to a white, middle class 27 yo British female or some white, middle class British man-but hey, he wasn't one of us, so shit happens. How much safer to you think the Brits feel now that this guy is dead? I, for one, express my sympathies to this man's family. To me, the "better safe than sorry" attitude is really a sorry response. I guess that "Bloody Sunday" in Norther Ireland can be justified by using the same phrase, as can any government injustice as long as "one of us" isn't killed. By the way, Jimmy, check how many times the police changed their stories with regards to the bombing and this incident on the BBC site-too bad you can't get the BBC TV news over there.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2005, 9:18am by hdido » |
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AussieBrian
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #18 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 9:25am » |
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Be nice to know the truth, as opposed to what we learn from the press.
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maffumatt
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If he had been a terrorist, and the police had not shot him, and he had a chance to blow himself up, the police would be criticized for that too. Its a no win situation for them.
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Jeepgun
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #20 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 10:53am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2005, 9:29am, maffumatt wrote:| If he had been a terrorist, and the police had not shot him, and he had a chance to blow himself up, the police would be criticized for that too. Its a no win situation for them. |
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Agreed. There are no easy answers. *sigh*
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Jimmy_B.
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #21 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 11:06am » |
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It's definitely ashame that an innocent person was shot & killed. I hear these stories all the time...the deaf man who was shot by police because they thought he was reaching for a gun when he was reaching for his "I am Deaf" card.  The father of two and his dog who was killed because Narcotic Police had the wrong address and he thought they were home intruders and shot at them. It happens almost every day....but still not being there and not having the full story....I can't comment on the actions of the police...only to say they had milli-seconds to react.
Either way, I still lay the most blame on the ones who have brought it to this...the terrorists.
Hopefully, we'll all know the full and true story soon and the man's family will get answers.
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nani
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #22 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 12:04pm » |
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Like I've said before, the police go to war everyday they're on the job. I sure wouldn't want to be in that position. People with mental illness dress weird and run from police everyday...
...it seems the police are damned if they do, damned if they don't. 
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Highlander
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #23 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 1:07pm » |
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Quote:| What really boggles my mind is why shoot him 5 times in the head when he was already down and restrained? |
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He wasn't restrained at the time! He had tripped and fallen and was on the ground the Armed officer utilised the rules of engagement that the S013 (Terrorist branch) have been retrained in. this is simple and effective shut down of the central nerveous system. a suicide bomber has already commited himself to death so wounding him has not eliminated the danger. The 'shoot to kill' policy has been learned from the middle east and indonesia where suicide bombers are much more prevelant. The Police forces there know what happens if a suicide bomber still has the ability to press a button.
It's tragic and a horrific turn of events in Britain. and there will be a full investigation (Come on we are the only nation currently charging OUR troops for war crimes!!!!)
The Police in Plain clothes after the Gentleman got off the bus OUTSIDE the subway station said POLICE STOP and repeated and repeated. HE BOLTED into the station and over the pay barriers! To me he had heard the police and ran! The Word Police and stop are virtually universal!
Scott
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Jeepgun
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Re: Shooting in London
« Reply #24 on: Jul 24th, 2005, 1:50pm » |
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Agreed, Scott.
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