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Topic: magnatism.............. (Read 824 times) |
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cootie
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magnatism..............
« on: Apr 4th, 2005, 12:48pm » |
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What do you think of this new magnetic theropy shit for chronic pain there talkin bout on the news ? Looks like a big MRI.....maybe it is put on 'reverse'.....har-har. Anyhow......workin with race horses years ago I am familiar with different types of methods to tryin to heal leg injuries with irritants and vibration and the lot. All it really did was 'stimulate' bloodflow by IRRITATION causeing more to flow to the irritated area being pinpointed and try to speed healing and feed the area with more healthy blood or aid healing for a day or two so the animal can be raced or shown with HOPES of total healing with some. Myself I don't beleive it can totally HEAL chronic pain......unless all an area needs to do is heal up from some sort of accident or trauma and is going along too slowly. But to CURE (there's that word again) or stop severe to moderate pain for long periods or forever that are badly damaged esp bone, I don't beleive it. I jus know now since it was on the news I will be hearing that I should check into it. Advice well taken.....Not a believer Pam
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| « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2005, 12:52pm by cootie » |
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Charlie
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #1 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 1:49pm » |
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Sorry kids. Magnetic "therapy" goes back to the 19th century propounded by quacks. Nothing ever changes. Q-Rays and other silly "ion" therapy just lightens your wallet.
Penn & Teller, on their Showtime "Bullshit" show, passed out magnets in a shopping mall to volunteers and asked them to come back and report. Everyone said they worked wonders....even though the "magnets" were aluminum. 
Killjoy Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2005, 3:58pm by Charlie » |
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BikerBob
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #2 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:01pm » |
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((((((((((magnetic cootie vibes to Pam)))))))))))
Bob
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rextangle
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #3 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:28pm » |
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I agree with Charlie also (after watching Bullshit).
I was always suspicious about the effects of magnets on the human body (80% water that's not magnetic)....
Don't waste your time or money on these as they can be very expensive... I don't even spend that kind of $$$ on my fridge!!!
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Langa
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #4 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:30pm » |
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Quote:| I don't even spend that kind of $$$ on my fridge!!! |
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No comment... 
Langa
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ExplodingEyeBall
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #5 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:39pm » |
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You are all going to think I'm nuts for even mentioning this but.... Here goes.
I have a rather large amplifier for my guitar. It has 4 12" speakers in it that all have very powerful magnets in them.
I used to keep this thing in my bedroom when I was still living with my parents (When I was a bum).
At one point, I needed to clear up some space so I moved the amp out of the way which happened to put it right next to my bed at the same end as my head.
I started having some of the most vivid and bizarre (sp?) dreams after I did this. After I moved the amp a couple weeks later, the dreams went back to normal (normal for me any way. LOL).
My thinking is that the magnetic field from the magnets in the speakers was doing some weird stuff to my head.
Am I a freak or do any of you have any similar experiances or theories on this?
Pat
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nani
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #6 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:40pm » |
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Were you dropping acid at the time?
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seasonalboomer
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #7 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 2:43pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 2:39pm, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
Yes. I believe this would be a criteria that would grant you admission.
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don
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #8 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 3:43pm » |
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You didn't happen to position the amp under your black light poster of Timothy Leary did you?
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Charlie
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #9 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 4:12pm » |
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Magnets have no effect on circulation that's measurable either.
It's an excellent example of the placebo effect. 
Ueli: Where are you?
Mean Old Charlie
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ExplodingEyeBall
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #10 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 4:30pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 4:12pm, Charlie wrote:Magnets have no effect on circulation that's measurable either.
It's an excellent example of the placebo effect.
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I agree with that but at the same time, I also realize that the human brain and almost everything involved with it rely on electromagnetic impulses.
Do you think that sleeping with a strong magnetic field this close to your head may cause some weird sh** to happen?
BTW: Answers to other questions.
Acid - Maybe.
Freak - Send me my admission ticket please.
Timothy Leary - How did you know I had that poster? Did the magnetic field give you ESP?
Where am I? - N/W Indiana
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| « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2005, 4:31pm by ExplodingEyeBall » |
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don
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #11 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 4:36pm » |
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Quote:| Timothy Leary - How did you know I had that poster? Did the magnetic field give you ESP? |
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I control that magnetic field from behind a tie dyed curtain in my parents basement.
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Ellick
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #12 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 4:52pm » |
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If magnets don't have any effect why do professional sports people use them to help heal injuries.
I have used them lots on old sports injuries with good pain relief.
Magnets will alter the bloodflow around an injury through ionisation.
Having said all this I think it works on injury. I tried it for CH and on one ocassion it worked straight away and from then on made it worse. So I think it works on injuries but not a deep seated condition like Ch. I wanted to experiment further and wrote to people who were supposed to know about magnetism. They did not reply, thereby consolidating the myth thay don't know what they are doing. Incidentally, I have had the same lack of response trying to get other 'experts' to offer some guidance in other areas of reasearch.
Despite this dampening of enquiry about information it makes me feel that we should not close the door on anything. That's arcane.
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cootie
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #13 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 5:18pm » |
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Don't VHS and cassette tapes have a warning not to store near any type magnet includeing near a tv or stereo or whatever. Erased at birth Pam
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BikerBob
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #14 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 5:47pm » |
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The strongest magnetic field your brain ever experienced was when it was in that MRI machine. Remember the technician making sure there was no metal on your body? Remember them saying if you have a metal plate in your head you can't do the MRI because it would make your head explode?
Now, did that MRI have any effect on your CH? No. Did it give you vivid bizarre dreams? No.
Case closed. 
Bob
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don
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #15 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 5:48pm » |
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Quote:| Remember them saying if you have a metal plate in your head |
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Lucky for me mine is a paper plate.
Dixie.
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floridian
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #16 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 6:05pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 12:48pm, cootie wrote:| What do you think of this new magnetic theropy shit for chronic pain there talkin bout on the news ? Looks like a big MRI..... |
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There is a big difference between the little magnets that people tape on their body and the hi-powered computer focused magnetic therapy devices that are out there.
Quote:Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2003 Oct;60(10):1002-8. Related Articles, Links
Transcranial magnetic stimulation in the treatment of depression: a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.
Fitzgerald PB, Brown TL, Marston NA, Daskalakis ZJ, De Castella A, Kulkarni J.
Alfred Psychiatry Research Centre, The Alfred Hospital, and the Department of Psychological Medicine, Monash University, Australia. paul.fitzgerald@med.monash.edu.au
BACKGROUND: High-frequency left-sided repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (HFL-TMS) has been shown to have antidepressant effects in double-blind trials. Low-frequency stimulation to the right prefrontal cortex (LFR-TMS) has also shown promise, although it has not been assessed in treatment-resistant depression and its effects have not been compared with those of HFL-TMS. OBJECTIVE: To prospectively evaluate the efficacy of HFL-TMS and LFR-TMS in treatment-resistant depression and compared with a sham-treated control group. DESIGN: A double-blind, randomized, sham-controlled trial. SETTING: Two general psychiatric services. PARTICIPANTS: Sixty patients with treatment-resistant depression who had failed to respond to therapy with multiple antidepressant medications were divided into 3 groups of 20 that did not differ in age, sex, or any clinical variables. All patients completed the double-blind phase of the study. INTERVENTIONS: Twenty 5-second HFL-TMS trains at 10 Hz and five 60-second LFR-TMS trains at 1 Hz were applied daily. Sham stimulation was applied with the coil angled at 45 degrees from the scalp, resting on the side of one wing of the coil.Main Outcome Measure Score on the Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale. RESULTS: There was a significant difference in response among the 3 groups (F56,2 = 6.2), with a significant difference between the HFL-TMS and sham groups and between the LFR-TMS and sham groups (P<.005 for all) but not between the 2 treatment groups. Baseline psychomotor agitation predicted successful response to treatment. CONCLUSIONS: Both HFL-TMS and LFR-TMS have treatment efficacy in patients with medication-resistant major depression. Treatment for at least 4 weeks is necessary for clinically meaningful benefits to be achieved. Treatment with LFR-TMS may prove to be an appropriate initial repetitive TMS strategy in depression taking into account safety, tolerability, and efficacy considerations. |
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Ueli
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #17 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 7:57pm » |
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Definitely snake oil 
A static magnetic field has an effect on bulk ferromagnetic material and on electric currents. Bulk as a piece of iron or the coating on a magnetic storage medium. The isolated iron bound in haemoglobin is not influenced by a magnet.
I've yet to see a scientifically sound report on any effect of magnetic fields on the body.
But then, the word "magnetic" is abused by all sorts of scam artists, like "the wiping cloth with the dust magnet", duh. The health and wellness scammers attribute to their magnets all sorts of thaumaturgic effects. Some time ago we had a spammer of Nikkens magnets that use the Hall effect to repair leaky cell membranes and thus reduce pain, and more such pseudoscientific nonsense.
A loudspeaker has a strong magnetic field, but only in the ~2 mm wide air gap (where the plunger coil moves), but not on the outside. Pat rather forgot to switch off the amplifier and some subsonic sound shook his head into weird dreams. ;D
Ellick wrote:
"Magnets will alter the bloodflow around an injury through ionisation."
Wow! You found a new way to ionize material with a permanent magnet! I'm not surprised that you get as much answers from the experts as if you submitted a new perpetuum mobile or a solution to the squaring of the circle problem. (How ionisation alters blood flow and how altered blood flow reduces pain is another question.)
In short:
If you hear some miraculous properties of magnets from the wellness or 'alternative' health care corners, hold fast on your wallet and scream "snake oil". I would only trust a report in a reputable scientific journal.
PFNADs, Ueli 
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floridian
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #18 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 8:42pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 7:57pm, Ueli wrote:Definitely snake oil
...
I've yet to see a scientifically sound report on any effect of magnetic fields on the body.
...
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Here's one that found that a static magnetic field can affect calcium levels and action potentials in neurons:
Quote:Int J Radiat Biol. 2004 Oct;80(10):699-708.
Effect of static magnetic fields on the amplitude of action potential in the lateral giant neuron of crayfish.
Ye SR, Yang JW, Chen CM.
Inst. of Molecular Medicine, National Tsing Hua University, 101, Sec. 2, Kuang Fu Road, Hsinchu, 30013, Taiwan. sryeh@life.nthu.edu.tw
PURPOSE: To investigate whether exposure to static magnetic field (SMF) affects the passive properties of neurons that mediate tail-flip escape behavior in crayfish. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A permanent magnet was placed under the isolated nerve cord of crayfish to experience SMF at 4.74 to 43.45 mT intensity for various period of time (20 seconds to 3 hours). An intracellular electrode was impaled on the axon of the lateral giant neuron (LG) of the last abdominal ganglion of crayfish to record the evoked action potential (AP) and excitatory postsynaptic potential (EPSP). The amplitudes of evoked AP and EPSPs before and after SMF exposure were measured to study the effect of SMF exposure. RESULTS: The exposure to SMF increased the amplitude of AP in the LG depending upon both the intensity of field and duration of field exposure. The changes in AP by field exposure are likely to be mediated by the increasing level of intracellular Ca2+ in the LG because the chelating of intracellular Ca2+ would block the effects by SMF exposure, while the injection of Ca2+ into the LG could mimic the effects of SMF exposure. SMF exposure also increases the input resistance of the LG membrane. Therefore, the magnitude of the EPSP in LG evoked by electrical shock on the sensory nerves was found to be enhanced after SMF exposure. CONCLUSION: SMF is usually considered to be safe for the biological issues since no electrical current is induced via the Faraday effect. Our results showed that some passive membrane properties of neurons are affected by SMF exposure. The increase in magnitude of evoked AP and EPSP suggests an increase in the sensitivity of the LG neuron. These changes by SMF exposure may not necessarily to be harmful to animals; however, further study is needed to address the biological effects from SMF exposure, especially in nervous systems. |
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Again, I'm not saying that $20 tape-on magnets have any therapeutic value, just that the body can be affected by magnetic fields.
Quote:Spine. 2003 Dec 15;28(24):2660-6.
Exposure to pulsed magnetic fields enhances motor recovery in cats after spinal cord injury.
Crowe MJ, Sun ZP, Battocletti JH, Macias MY, Pintar FA, Maiman DJ. Neuroscience Research Laboratories, The Clement J. Zablocki VA Medical Center, Milwaukee, WI 53295, USA. mcrowe@mcw.edu |
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Maybe the cats were comforted by the thoughts of magnet power and this increased their recovery??
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| « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2005, 8:43pm by floridian » |
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Redd
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #19 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 8:46pm » |
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80% water
Water is not magnetic
Water does however conduct electricity
Electicity is magnetic
The human body does conduct and produce electrical current
pain relief...probably not
change in electrical current thus a change in pain perception with the introduction of magnets
plausable yet logically short lived percieved relief.
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floridian
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #20 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 8:47pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 7:57pm, Ueli wrote:
Ellick wrote:
"Magnets will alter the bloodflow around an injury through ionisation."
I would only trust a report in a reputable scientific journal.
PFNADs, Ueli
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Is Microvascular Research a reputable journal??
Quote:Microvasc Res. 2005 Jan;69(1-2):24-7. Related Articles, Links
Effects of a static magnetic field of either polarity on skin microcirculation.
Mayrovitz HN, Groseclose EE.
College of Medical Sciences, Nova Southeastern University, 3200 S. University Drive, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33328, USA.
Our specific aim was to investigate whether a local static magnetic field of a permanent magnet, of either pole, affects resting skin blood perfusion. This was done by measuring skin blood perfusion (SBF) by laser-Doppler in dorsum skin of 2nd and 4th fingers of the nondominant hands of 12 volunteers. Both fingers were first exposed to sham magnets, and then the 2nd finger was exposed alternately to north and south poles of a neodymium magnet that produced a field of 4024 G at the palmar part of the finger and a field of 879 +/- 52 G at the site of finger dorsum SBF measurement. Each of the three exposure intervals was 15 min. SBF values were analyzed by first computing the average SBF during the last 5 min of each of the three 15-min exposure intervals. These SBF averages were initially tested for magnet or magnet-pole effects by analysis of variance for repeated measures with finger as a factor, using SBF values for each finger as the test variable. Results of this analysis revealed a large variability in finger SBF among subjects and no significant difference in SBF between exposure conditions (P = 0.705) or any significant interaction between SBF and finger (P = 0.396). However, when intersubject variability was reduced by using the flow difference between treated and nontreated fingers in each exposure interval as the test variable, a statistically significant effect (P = 0.016) attributable to magnet exposure was uncovered. This effect was a reduction in resting SBF in the magnet-exposed fingers that was similar for north and south pole magnet exposure. The present findings are the first to demonstrate a direct effect of locally applied magnets on human skin blood perfusion.
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Mr. Happy
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #21 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 10:34pm » |
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I'd argue against the futility of magnets, if I didn't have a pad with a dozen of the little buggers sewn into it strapped on right now. Chronic lumbar crap. When things get bad, I pin on the magnet pad, and reduce my incapacitation time to 40-72 hours, instead of 2 - 3 weeks. For all I know, it's the damned pad keeping the area warm that does the trick.
I could care less. If a placebo works, and works consistently, charge me double.
Let them eat Kudzu.
RJ
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cootie
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #22 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 10:45pm » |
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What if you swollow'd a bunch of teeny magnets cooked in a pie.......would you explode dureing an MRI ? Ways to kill Pam
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ExplodingEyeBall
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #23 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 10:55pm » |
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on Apr 4th, 2005, 5:47pm, BikerBob wrote:
Now, did that MRI have any effect on your CH? No. Did it give you vivid bizarre dreams? No.
Case closed.
Bob |
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I never said anything about CH when I mentioned this.
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Just poke out my eye and get it over with!!!
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cootie
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sumday I'm gonna be sumbody........ ..
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Re: magnatism..............
« Reply #24 on: Apr 4th, 2005, 10:58pm » |
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anybody want pie...sarcastic fantastic Pam
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