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Topic: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) (Read 1933 times) |
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Cerberus
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Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« on: Jun 20th, 2004, 9:09pm » |
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This thread is not an anti-religon thread nor is it an attack on those who are believers or non. It IS a semi-rhetorical question which may be answered by anyone who feels they may have some insight...in fact I invite you to should anyone so desire.
A couple of days ago a very long time friend of ours came to visit with her husband and daughter it was nice to have them visit and I wish them to come whenever they desire, they are always welcome here. However, She has become something of a "devout" christian ...I dont have a problem with that, what disturbs me (knowing her youth history) is that she has claimed attachment to the pentecostal faith and has also turned somewhat fanatical...at least it seems that way.
We housed them in our guest-room and she went so far as to turn my painting (the one entitled Marooned)toward the wall because of the skulls contained in the subject (she claimed it made her "uncomfortable" ). I dont even take offense to that because she is more than entitled to her beliefs. While here she attended a Benny Hinn healing service in Chicago in hopes of being healed of her fibromyalgia of which she has been suffering a great deal of pain for a few years now. (BTW she is still ill and claimed that it "Wasn't her time" when I asked if she was cured)
Anyhow, when she arrived back here after the service we talked some about her faith and Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and our individual beliefs...this is where I get perplexed. While she has never forced her faith upon me, a few things she said slightly offended me.
Essentially she attributes everything not directly associated with "good" in action, word, or deed as Satan's doing, this includes but is not limited to pretty much anything not of her personal approval or practice and almost all evil acts comitted by human beings.
I will clarify...I talked some about the historical aspects of religon (in general based on scientific/historical fact) along with historical facts about the bible citing documented evidence. She stated that I should be carefull what I percieve to be fact (even if it is religously documented) because Satan wants to steer me away from the "truth". When the reverse was asked of her about the bible...I.E. The bible was written and compiled by men for the purpose of creating order in society. The response was that (even though it is and was documented by devout people) the bible was written by men directly from the word of God therefore it is absolute truth, even though men are fallible and things got lost in translation or were deliberately omitted.
Here is my point... What gives her the right to imply or believe that anyone who does not worship, pray, or believe the same things as her or those of her faith are going to hell? It is this type of thinking that lead me to excommunicate myself from organized religon. How do we truly know and who are we to judge who is right or wrong and/or which religous practice is proper? Doesn't that act or implication contradict what she is supposed to be learning from the teachings of her faith and the bible? She would say that Satan was misleading another if the same were said to her Example:She mentioned that she felt genuinely worried for another mutual friend of our's soul (who chose to become Jehova's Witness) because the things she believed were going to send her to hell. Which implies (at least in my perception) that my personal beliefs are also wrong and I will surely burn in hell as a result.
I have a great deal of respect for this person and although she didn't come right out and directly SAY it...that, in essence, is what she said.
Am I wrong for being offended? And if not, then how do I express my displeasure to her for offending me by indirectly saying those things when I fully respect her right to believe what she wants? She doesnt shun and refuse to be a friend to me because of my personal beliefs, yet she indirectly expresses "concern" for my afterlife because I dont practice my beliefs the same way she does. Isn't that similar to a fanatical muslim thought process although she is non-violent? I'm cornfusticated and find this disturbing.
Did I make sense? WTF do I do, I cant just let it go like that...
Ramon
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Kevin_M
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #1 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 9:24pm » |
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on Jun 20th, 2004, 9:09pm, Cerberus wrote: Essentially she attributes everything not directly associated with "good" in action, word, or deed as Satan's doing, this includes but is not limited to pretty much anything not of her personal approval or practice and almost all evil acts comitted by human beings.
Ramon |
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Her judging robes are on a bit too tight. Tell her you will pray for her anyway.
Kevin M
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Lobster
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #2 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 9:56pm » |
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Well said Kevin.
People of her ilk have driven me away from most organized religions.
Reminds me of third grade in Catholic school...
I spent a weekend at my Aunts house... attended Mass with her... Protestant services. Told the Nun of my experience the following Monday... and was informed that I committed an awful sin! LOL... even at the age of 9 I knew that she was dead wrong.
No worries Cerb... rest assured... any religion that spouts 'my way or the highway' is out of luck. God/Allah/Whatever is not that stupid.
On a side note, I find that zealots (ie your guest) and the like are great amusement at parties. Sources of a million contradictions.
Rock
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Tiannia
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #3 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:06pm » |
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Ramon -
That is hard. I've faced it alot. Not just from Friends but Family members as well. It is difficult for people to believe that others who believe differently then them can be "saved" because that might mean that they are wrong. The more devoutly they believe that they are the only ones who are right the more comfortable they are with thier destination after this life.
For me, it depends on how well I know them and if they will actually get into a discussion about it. If not, then you might only end up ostrisizing her and your friendship. If she will, then talk to her about it. Not trying to put words in your mouth just talking. This is from my prospective only.
You can tell her that you appreciate that she is worried about you, but that you feel that your relationship with God or whatever it is you call your higher power is not up for interpritation. That Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." You can say that for you that means that the only person who can judge you is God.
Personally, I feel that there is so much in this life that is painful, and not only physically. That whatever it is that gets a person through each and every day, is what is right for them. That each person needs to find faith within themselves, that gives them some sort of reason to get up each day. I cant say that CH is a blessing, but I can say that it has taught me to enjoy and appreciate each and every minute that I am PF.
Hope that helps. There is more that I usually get into with people, but that is not for this thread.
-Tia
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Cerberus
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #4 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:18pm » |
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As it turns out...
I probably won't confront her about it, I am not that sinister and It really isnt that important (at least not to me) I just thought it kinda ODD and was taken by surprise once I had some time to give it some introspect...
I dont believe that discussing it with her would jeopardize our friendship any, but, I also wont test that boundary with her....she is free to worship and practice what she thinks is right and I am humble enought to respect that...my only wish was that she had done the same cause I dont think she knew what she was implying.
But pls folks keep offering opinions (especially) you clergy types I find the topic fascinating actually.
Ramon
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purpleydog
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #5 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:28pm » |
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I don't get into organized religion just for this reason. I have the utmost respect for whatever religion people choose to follow, I expect these people to treat me with the same respect.
I don't understand why different religions treat other religions differently, saying what they (other people) believe is wrong. Some people feel their religion is the right one and everyone else will go to hell for believing differently.
I worked with a guy long ago who was trying to "convert" me to his beliefs. He told me different words in different rock songs were evil and meant those bands were serving the devil. I just kept on working, didn't say anything except 'interesting". He was very frustrated that I wasn't going along with him and got mad and walked away.
Last year I worked with a young man who was going to seminary school to become a pastor. By the way he gossiping, and how he acted toward people of color, and how he put down women (especially his wife), I couldn't believe it! The word hypocrisy comes to mind.
I don't think you're wrong to be offended, I would be too. Maybe she doesn't realize what she's saying and what it means to you. Maybe she does. I believe people who are religious fanatics can be dangerous, they will do anything to show you they're right. I don't know if her fanaticism relates to fanatical muslims or not.
IMHO, I don't think people should judge each other, but it happens all the time. And a religious person may say the same thing to you while judging you and your beliefs. We are all people living on this earth, why anyone would condemn a person for following a different religion than theirs is beyond me.
purpleydog
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John_D
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #6 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:30pm » |
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 Yeah, that can be annoying, but that is what some Christian dogma teaches. She was being very honest with you, she must trust you a great deal. You are a skeptic and she is a devout believer, I wonder if you can still be friends  .
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Cerberus
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #7 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:42pm » |
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Yes we're still friends...I am not that shallow..no problem. I just think that that type of thought process is mostly a defeatist attitude. Specially when it comes to Christianity...since the basic principles of all the christian religons is almost exacly the same, it is in fact the method of getting there is different.
As for the fanatical muslim comparison...that was merely a comparison of thought processes, I.E. "you dont believe or worship as I do therfore you are damned" ....that kind of thinkin...just dont make sense. and I really dont think she MEANT to imply what she really ended up saying...if she did then she totally screwed up by her own standards.
RAmon
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Tiannia
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #8 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:44pm » |
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on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:18pm, Cerberus wrote:
But pls folks keep offering opinions (especially) you clergy types I find the topic fascinating actually.
Ramon |
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Ok my, I know a lot of clergy people what would be offended if I was lumped in with them.  hehe
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cootie
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #9 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:46pm » |
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I call it anouther FAZE in life...........people seem to need the religious kick to insure them of an afterlife......a certain cure.....or not fear dieing. I've seen alot of people go thru religious extreme fazes then switch off and on like a lightswitch........my uncle when I was a kid turned into an extreme religion overnite practically and the family could no longer enjoy any holidays and my aunt could no longer even wear makeup. He became a fanatic and they'd read from the bible when we were little on vacation at grama's. He didn't believe in several foods either or activities esp sports for the kids. It was hard on the family and ended in devorse. I have become EXTREMLY squimish on religion ever since cuz they scared me readin the bible like it was a theater play and preachin bad actions and people were nothing but hell bound.....sorta freaked me out. So....few years later he becomes an alchoholic and would come over and pass out on the couch and let the kids run rampert and stay all day long. He's still semi-religious.....and dried out....and no longer extreme. Seen it before...it irritates the crap out of me (no offense to anyone here that is religious tho)....but myself I don't believe in pushing any personal choices on anyone about anything. Tattoo'd hellbound Pam
modify...is bad spelling a sin ? Yipes if it is............ 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2004, 10:49pm by cootie » |
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #10 on: Jun 20th, 2004, 11:36pm » |
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Ramon,
Been there, done that. That's how I was raised. For the victim (her, not you) it's a total mindfuck. The guilt can become immense. For me, it became impossible to live with myself. It's impossible to reason with that kind of thinking. Of course, now I think religion is... a waste of time (to put it nicely)... but that's just my opinion.
Oh, and Ramon.... you're going to hell (LOL j/k... I think  )
--- Steve
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Ree
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #11 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 12:08am » |
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Finally a thread I can sink my teeth into... Firstly Ramon... You are so articuate... a very smart guy. I hope I get to meet you someday... And too I am impressed at your curiousity and concern about this issue and your friend also.
First of all Kev said it in a nutshell... Tell her you will pray for her. My son left our religion after meeting someone just like her. He felt that with all the good in the world. How could everyone but this one chosen group people be going to Hell.
Take it from someone that has seen the "light" so to speak... Though, I am a Catholic... born, brought up. I don't think any religion can leave more guilt on a persons soul.
I had a near death experience at 15 and I don't know if you believe in such a phenomenon. In the course of my then journey I learned that God is Love... We are all of the same energy. No one better. I myself do believe in EVIL... But there are many roads to God...
I keep God in several ways. I have chosen to keep my religion as I am brought up and comfortable in it. Never, ever in the teachings of Jesus Christ have I ever understood that any person... with a basic knowledge of goodness in their soul would go to Hell.
As Kev said... Tell her you will pray for her... or do as I do when someone approaches me about their beliefs... I give them a few of mine........... We are all right.........love to you Ree (who was really touched by an angel)
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #12 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 1:37am » |
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She found a spiritual connection with the world and wants to share it with you. It happens to alot of people everyday. That part of it is wonderful. What alot of people are not so good at,unfortunately, is understanding that whatever"medication" works for them,may not work for you or me.
The bible is a very complicated piece of literature and if one is not careful reading it or being taught by it,it can start a whopper of a fire in some.
To cut her some slack, it's not easy turning your will and life over to the care of God while at the same time remembering to think for your self and maintain a strong and healthy understanding of the world around you. That takes time and alot of practice and patience.
...Mark..
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #13 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 2:16am » |
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Ramon,
Interesting post, and a very thought provoking one. I appreciate your maintaining your friendship with this lady even though your beliefs clash. To many people would break friendship over such a disagreement She sounds to me from the little I read of her to be a fairly new convert who has not had the time to become totally grounded in her faith, merely believing whatever some preacher tells her without checking it out for truth.
I do not put myself up as an expert although I have a degree in Bible and have taught and preached in a lay capacity for many years. What I have discovered as I have matured and have studied further that some of the things I espoused earlier I have learned were wrong. All I can say is that the Bible lays out a choice. Either you believe it or you do not. I have never been one to try to shove my beliefs down anyones throat because, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." unknown author. I am always willing an hapy to share what I believe, but will not try to push it on anyone, nor condemn anyone for believing differently. That is God's to judge, not mine. All that I can say to quote St. Paul is, "I know whom I have belived and am pursuaded that he is able to keep that which I have commited unto him against that day."
Jerry
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Cerberus
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #14 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 2:54am » |
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part one:
Quote:| She was being very honest with you, she must trust you a great deal. You are a skeptic and she is a devout believer, I wonder if you can still be friends |
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She was, does and we are...no matter what happens I will never forget it.
Quote:| You are so articuate... a very smart guy. I hope I get to meet you someday... And too I am impressed at your curiousity and concern about this issue and your friend also. |
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TY Ree I am humbled....we WILL meet eventually, count on it.
Quote:But there are many roads to God...
I keep God in several ways. I have chosen to keep my religion as I am brought up and comfortable in it. Never, ever in the teachings of Jesus Christ have I ever understood that any person... with a basic knowledge of goodness in their soul would go to Hell.
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Agreed...not only is that admirable...it is respectfull and many people could learn from this way of thinking.
Quote:| it's not easy turning your will and life over to the care of God while at the same time remembering to think for your self and maintain a strong and healthy understanding of the world around you. That takes time and alot of practice and patience. |
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Good solid thinking Mark..."Men never do evil so cheerfully as when they do it from religous conviction." -Blaise Pascal-
anyone who wishes pls feel free to express your thoughts...again no response from me will judge your beliefs, if it works for you then I'm happy for you.
On to part Two:
Although I do not believe in a "personified" god...I still have a prayer. Pray it to God, Jesus, Allah, Bhudda, Shiva or whatever higher power you may believe in.
May all whom I come across benefit from me in whatever form their soul may need...I am a vessel from which flows understanding, kindness and love to the best of my human limitations.
May Each and everyone here, if even only one time in their entire lives and only if for a moment, experience the comfort, joy and peace shared by this family.
May all of you be PF...chronics, episodics, supporters and non, whether it be your minds, hearts, or bodies even if it is fleeting.
May NONE of you forget the little things that make life worth living...sunsets/rises, the smiles and laughter of infants, friends and family, the tiny mew of kittens and soft puppy fur, the call of the birds, the chirping of crickets, morning dew and spring rain, the crystalization of your breath on a cold window pane in the dead of winter or the love from a pet....these are but a few of many more.
May ALL of your burdens be lifted, pay your good fortunes forward and you will find reward in the joy of having helped others.
May All of your sorrows and worries be comforted.
Life is too precious and short to spend the rest of it missing out on what is truly important.
We need not wealth nor possessions as long as we have others who truly love and care for us...it is this a genuine love and caring that I wish upon you.
May we remember these things for the rest of our time in this life and pass it along to our children, and their children, friends, family, aquaintances and neighbors...in this way together we shall live forever and will garantee the continuation of our species in a positive and constructive manner.
Let us not judge others for their beliefs.
May I someday be able to bring you all to experience the profound joy you all have given me for my life and sanity you have saved on more than one occasion....these things I wish for you.
Amen...
That is what life is about no matter what creed or religon you practice. It is the essence of life itself.
Peace
Ramon
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Charlie
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #15 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 3:30am » |
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This is an easy call for me. Anyone who would waste time on a con artist like Benny Hinn, is way around the bend. One has to pay to see this creep and check his mind at the door. This guy preys on desperate people and holds that sickening smile all the way to the bank. He gets away with it by using religion.
What you describe is fanaticism and from what you say, there isn’t much you can do. Let them know you'll only go so far or when you’ve had enough. In a strange way you have to envy these people who are so sure of an afterlife.
We've been lucky in our family. We've had some churchgoers but no one who made religion unpleasant. For me, I'm a member of the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption.
Good luck.
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2004, 3:39am by Charlie » |
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #16 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 8:11am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2004, 2:54am, Cerberus wrote:...I still have a prayer.
That is what life is about no matter what creed or religon you practice. It is the essence of life itself.
Peace
Ramon |
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Ramon,
I cannot consider it "good sense" to seek to change, convert, or misjudge your view. That is a good solid grasp, don't let it go for anything. And she's preaching to you?
Kevin M
*edit* Jayne's post on the "get help for depression" thread needs to be moved over to this thread. It is an excellent example of "seek and ye shall find", and an experience that can give one faith. That is a reflection of how faith in action works.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2004, 8:41am by Kevin_M » |
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Jeepgun
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #17 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 8:54am » |
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Just weighing in on the concept of Hell and eternal torment:
If God is perfect, God's justice must also be perfect. In the context of eternity, this life is but a breath. If there were such a thing as eternal separation from God, and indeed, a place of eternal darkness, pain, and torment, wouldn't that be a perfect God's admission of failure? Wouldn't that be something on the order of a Cosmic Wastebasket?
And if that isn't proof enough, for those who think the Bible is God's first, last, and only words to mankind, you can quote the verse, "He who has begun the perfect work within you shall see it through to the day of its completion."
There is no such place as Hell. Even the Pope has said that Hell is a state of consciousness, of separation from God. And even THAT isn't correct, according to the Bible: King David wrote in the Psalms, "Where can I go that you are not there? Even if I descend to the depths of Sheol, you are there."
God still speaks. It's rare that people ever shut up long enough to listen, though. People pray and pray and pray, treating God like some kind of Cosmic Santa, and never take time to get quiet inside and actually listen.
If your chosen religion is making you a more loving, spiritual person and makes you feel closer to your God, then it is the correct religion for you. However, praying to change others' state of consciousness, forcing your faith on others, or interfering with anyone else's relationship with God, is the very height of arrogance and ignorance. It is to place oneself between the individual and God, and to claim to know better than God what is best for the individual. Many roads, One Work.
My two centavos' worth...
-Frank
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #18 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 10:43am » |
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Yeah !! But - I am upset about this whole thing for a different reason. I was not around when Ramon and her had this conversation - I was at work.. and it's a good thing, because I would have sat there and argued with her - especially if I felt offended like Ramon did.
This was a visit from "hell". Man! We havent been keeping in touch with this friend as well as we should ... and we invited her up... without realizing how "different" she had become.
WOW - did we get smacked!
First of all... she is a friend of mine that I have known since I was 5. We grew up together - got in sooooooooo much trouble together, and she is actually the person who introduced Ramon and I. (LOL) And she was the maid of honor at our wedding.
My mama always told me never to talk about religion with friends... and I try very hard not to.
But this visit was UNREAL! I would be talking about something (anything - LAUNDRY even )...... and she would turn it into God - and go into a whole speech. I would try to change the subject - and no matter what - it always ended up back on God and satan, and healing, within MINUTES...... All I could do was nod my head and agree or say - ok - yeah... gotcha...
I'm glad I didn't know about this conversation her and Ramon had until now.
she changed. She said she changed because she got sick...
she was just looking for relief, and God is what she found.
And she swears that the pain that she is in (and she's in A LOT of pain all day every day... ) is God's will - and she will get better when HE wants her to. So - she' has stopped trying to make herself well. she used to try everything to make herself feel better... now - she just leaves it to God. She just takes her pain meds and leaves the rest to God. (and she's dependant on the oxycontin that she's been taking for over 2 years... ) which is another concern i have...
She now = for some reason - feels like she is the EXPERT parent - the all-knowing - all powerful mother, who is always right and always does the perfect thign. and now - loves to tell me how to raise my kids, what to tell my kids, how to discipline my kids. She also knows WHY my kids do what they do - and HOW to fix it. (GOD - of course.. will mend their ways). That did offend me - nothing like my friend coming here and telling me in not-so-many words that i"m a terrible parent.
she never used to be this way - i dont know how to tell her that i dont want her to come back - i dont want to talk about God all the time - and I dont want her telling me how to raise my kids.
If she wants to send her kid to bible camp all summer - that's fine... but my kids are not going to hell because I dont have the money to send them to a church camp.
I love her - and i'm worried about her - and I lost my friend. And honestly - i'm pissed off about it
i call these kind of people "holier than thou.." and I hate that my friend has turned into one of "them".
sorry this was so long.
tina 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2004, 10:54am by Woobie » |
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Jeepgun
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #19 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 11:00am » |
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I had a friend like that. Rabid fundamentalist. No matter what we were talking about, he would turn it into a diatribe on God and his particular brand of Christianity. I told him repeatedly that I didn't care to discuss it. (Not that there was ever any kind of discussion. He would rant and I would listen quietly.) Each time after that, when he would start spoiling for a religious discussion, I would change the subject. I haven't heard from him in several months now, and I consider that a blessing.  
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cootie
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #20 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 11:07am » |
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That's the exact way I feel Woobs !!!! I have some freinds that turned into religoius freaks (sorry guys).....everything they say do or sit on was done specially for them from God.....everything they do he let them do or smiled upon.....special. Guess it can be a new faze for someone that needed 'something' to believe in and take over there life so they could keep goin or move on.....and with sum they eventually burn them selves out with the fanatic part of it....esp after too many things go terribly wrong in there life and disalusions them. I am offended by people that PUSH there beliefs or how things 'should be'.....but then that mite be due to how my uncle scared me as a kid. I felt corner'd as they got us kids in a room readin all that 'do this or go to hell stuff'. It seems to be an obsession like anything else..........like findin a new pizza place and all you can do it talk about how good the food was and how everyone should go. Hell hast no furry like a Pammie flurry
Opps...then God created modify...........arghhhh !
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2004, 11:09am by cootie » |
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Cause and Effect......"Cause is the effect concealed, Effect is the cause revealed"
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Margi
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #21 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 11:09am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:54am, Jeepgun wrote:God still speaks. It's rare that people ever shut up long enough to listen, though. People pray and pray and pray, treating God like some kind of Cosmic Santa, and never take time to get quiet inside and actually listen.
If your chosen religion is making you a more loving, spiritual person and makes you feel closer to your God, then it is the correct religion for you. However, praying to change others' state of consciousness, forcing your faith on others, or interfering with anyone else's relationship with God, is the very height of arrogance and ignorance. It is to place oneself between the individual and God, and to claim to know better than God what is best for the individual. Many roads, One Work.
My two centavos' worth...
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AWESOME post, Jeepgun. 
Amen to every word you said - our job title is not "Judge". That comes later.
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And, on the Eighth Day...God created Beer (to stop the Canadians from taking over the world)
source unknown
IMHO (which in my universe is correct)
kathy copelin, ch.com 8/8/06
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BobG
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #22 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 12:06pm » |
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Quote:| in hopes of being healed of her fibromyalgia |
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A healing service will not heal anything. She'll just get an empty wallet and still have her pain which, I suspect, she enjoys.
Quote:| she attributes everything not directly associated with "good" in action, word, or deed as Satan's doing, |
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God gave humans the intelligence to know right from wrong. If I murder another person (not a good thing) did Satan make me do it? No, I made that choice. If the other person dies (not a good thing) did Satan cause that? No, I did it by choice.
Quote:| What gives her the right to imply or believe that anyone who does not worship, pray, or believe the same things as her or those of her faith are going to hell? |
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That would be a good question to ask the Muslims in the middle east. They believe if you don't believe exactly as they do that they have an obligation and right to kill you.
Quote:the bible was written by men directly from the word of God therefore it is absolute truth, theory and believing is called faith |
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Quote:Did I make sense? WTF do I do, I cant just let it go like that...
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Yes you made sense. The only thing worse than a religious freek is a 'born-again' religious freek. Tell you'd rather not talk about religion and move the conversation to another subject. If she won't give up the religious talk tell her STFU.
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Jeepgun
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #23 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 12:35pm » |
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Thank you, Margi.
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Cerberus
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Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH)
« Reply #24 on: Jun 21st, 2004, 1:49pm » |
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It scares me to hear that someone who claims to have so much faith...can attribute the evils that men do to a lesser power. Man has to be held accountable for his individual actions at some point otherwise we are mere puppets and God's gift of "free will" doesn't truly exist and that line of thinking likens Satan's power to that of God...scary as well as fanatical.
Its also scary that she dismisses the Old Testament almost entirely. She talked of the teachings in it as if it were a mere story and to be regarded as such, yet her faith in the New Testament was astonishingly hypocritical. She acknowledged the existance of the "great rejected books of the bible" but dismissed the "rejected" writings of the same men who's other teachings were included...??? She acknowledges the Jews as the "chosen people" and dismisses their beliefs as "satanic" for the lack of the acknowledgement of Jesus as the messiah. The Talmud...from which much of the bible was derived is not acceptable as scripture...while the musings of men who claim that "God told them to" write are regarded as Holy. The dead sea scrolls written in a extinct language and found to be incomplete are also partially the foundation of the bible...these writings contain words that do not translate into ANY modern language but they are to be revered as sacred. Much of what they contain is permanently lost to time and/or translation. There are things contained in the former that we dont even know about and may even totally contradict what we think we know.
Her husband was accompanying her...I talked to him briefly about it. I asked if they had to pay to get into the Benny Hinn service...he said not directly, they were members of his ministry and as a result were given tickets to the service last Thursday. He did say that once they got there and were standing in line (for several hours) they noticed that tickets were being given away for free....boxes full of them. I took that in mind and thought to myself...hrrmmm interesting and said no more.
It is sad that their daughter is going to this "Bible Camp"...somehow I doubt that it is of this child's own choosing. They are pushing their beliefs upon her...it appears in an effort to mold her into the child they want and not the child she should/could be...sad. Society wonders why there are fewer and fewer practicing christians....the reason is obvious.
Our daughter spent a day or two with them when they left here to go home...she is now at another friend of ours.. and I am glad...my kids are raised to develop their own relationship with God as they see fit.
My heart tells me when I've done wrong. Oh wait...I'm judgeing....
Ramon
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I would rather face the end with terror than terror without end. - (Deitrich Sawatsky 194?)
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