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Topic: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today (Read 1266 times) |
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pubgirl
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Today is the day we remember the bravest generation.
Today 60 years ago Operation Overlord, the D-Day Landings started.
Today 60 years ago the Liberation of Europe started.
This will probably be the last time many of the men and women can revisit the site of their bravery as the ones that are left are now very old.
For those of you who know nothing about it, take a moment out to think that the world would be a very different place if the people of Britain, France, America and the Commonwealth had not died in their millions to stop the German invasion forces.
The opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan give a vague clue of how terrible this was. Many men never made it out of the water, and many more were mown down on the beaches as they came ashore. Then followed an attritional campaign over the following days where many thousands more were killed.
We in Europe owe our freedom to these men and women. 500,000 of them died in this phase of the war alone. 61 million people lost their lives in total, 235,000 of them were USA citizens.
LEST WE FORGET
Wendy
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 2:45am by pubgirl » |
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jonny
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You should really take France out of there, they were shooting at us as we stormed the beach......Fucking frogs!!!!
......................................jonny
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #2 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 11:22am » |
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I've never heard that Jonny, how did they manage to do that  the Germans held the whole Normandy coastline didn't they?
Was it aircraft fire?
If so, it may be one of the most desperately sad aspects of any conflict, the 'friendly fire' deaths (can't stand that phrase  )
Wendy
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The mad viking
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #3 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 11:35am » |
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Sorry Jonny but you`re way out of line on this one.
France was occupied as the rest of Europa.They was among the allied forces on D-Day.
Svenn
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #4 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 12:00pm » |
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Svenn
Sorry but it looks like Jonny may be right. I was interested so I did a search and found quite a lot about what they call "amicide" in Normandy. Most of it was after the landings during the advance across France
BUT, to be fair to the French (not sure why as I'm not a fan!), the worst two incidences I can find were one where US bombers bombed their own men as the smoke from the first bombs obscured the subsequent bombers vision, and in addition, the most horrific hushed up incident in the UK where hundreds of GI's were killed in a D-Day training exercise where some numbnuts issued live ammunition instead of dummies. This one (link below) really shocked me!!
I think people in the USA would be entitled to be very angry with the Brits for this horror.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C1217951%2C00.html
Wendy
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:18pm by pubgirl » |
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Cerberus
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #5 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 12:43pm » |
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Friendly fire happens in EVERY war...less often now with the introduction of "smart" technology and GPS. However behind the lines things now happen in "realtime" and that wasnt the case back then.
No one wants to hear bloody stories of "friendly fire" its bad for morale and REALLY bad for politics. Wargames on the british isles anywhere near the time of D-day was a bad idea...it was shady planning on the U.S.'s part and even more questionable on the part of the British armies...GB was already worried of bombings by Germany and probably ordered all units on full alert at all times it doesnt surprise me a bit....do I think its acceptable..NO but it is understandable.
Another WW2 myth is the flag raising at Iwo-Jima....how many people know that it happened prior to most of the combat on that Island? Yup, its true....the statue of the soldiers raising that flag is a scene that happend prior to what is considdered one of the bloodiest conflicts of the war. Japanese troops were deeply intrenched on that Island and were waiting until most of the invading U.S. forces had landed before firing upon them...the first wave landed there almost completely unchallenged.
I got more interesting stuff ifn ya wanna know......
As for D-Day Vets .....Thank you for your service and proper respect given.
Ramon
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mynm156
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #6 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 12:55pm » |
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THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE SERVED!!!
TO ALL THAT GAVE THE ULTIMATE YOU ARE REMEMBERED!!
mynm156
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The mad viking
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #7 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:02pm » |
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Friendly fire happens in EVERY war.So it did in ww2 also.
We had some companies on the allied side.Norwegian accidently killed Norwegians on the same side.Dont think its possibly to dont let that happens in a master battle as the D-Day.
What i was questioning is that Jonny did generalize all french as bad and thats NOT right.
The same on the german side.Not all was naziz.There was good men among them to.Just following orders.
As everybody else did
For the record Norway was also occupied and had our share of the hell called war on our own land
Guess what im trying to say is that its time to forgive but NOT forget .
What is really irritating is the way we all treat our WW2 vets.
But thats another story
Svenn
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:15pm by The mad viking » |
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #8 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:23pm » |
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I think you are right Svenn.
One funny anecdote. There is a great deal of TV coverage of the 60 year remembrance here in the UK. This morning some reporters were interviewing people who had gone to Arromanche for the memorial services. One was a German man who was complaining that there were flags for every country all over the town, but no German flags on any of the houses
Duhhhh
W
P.S. Ramon, I'm not really clued up about military history but always interested in the human side of the conflicts and what we can learn from them. Thanks for the post
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:25pm by pubgirl » |
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #9 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:31pm » |
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Svenn
Didn't mean to ignore Norway' contribution. It is quite well known here that Norway was used as a base for bombing raids on Germany, and we are very familiar with the "Heroes of Telemark" story where crack Norwegian troops destroyed Hitler's potential nuclear capability. Sadly we are only familiar with it because Hollywood made a film about it, but I'm glad they did or no-one would know.
So respect to the Norwegians as well
W
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fubar
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #10 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:31pm » |
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Even our latest 'hero' was killed by friendly fire.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/29/tillman.report/
I say 'hero' only because I think it's wrong to single out this man as special when we have over 800 others who have given their life to this war already.
Friendly fire happens in every conflict. It's an ugly truth of war.
However, I'm not convinced that all the French 'friendly fire' incidents were accidents. Apparantly there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Hell, some of our own recent (Gulf war) 'friendly fire' incidents have been proven to be deliberate (in subsequent courts marshall)
-Fu
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #11 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:42pm » |
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Fair point Fu. Terrible things happen and good people do terrible things in terrible times.
Jonny's comment made me surf around and there are some very interesting things on the net about "amicide" as opposed to"homicide in a war setting" or even self inflicted wounds or suicides.
One of the things I read about so-called 'Friendly Fire" was written by a Senior Officer at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and as he is obviously not a scholar it makes relatively easy and interesting reading for anyone interested.
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Shrader/shrader.asp
W
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:44pm by pubgirl » |
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The mad viking
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #12 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:45pm » |
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Pubgirl
Its NOT about Norway`s contribution at ALL.
1 example "a bit out of line perhaps"
"The My Lai massacre " back in 69/70.
read with europeans eyes
Does that massacre makes ALL Americans BAD .
Hardly think so
"You should really take France out of there, they were shooting at us as we stormed the beach......Fucking frogs!!!! "
What im trying to say is:
Dont judge a nation because of some bad mistakes happening during wartime.
is that any clearer?
Svenn
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:49pm by The mad viking » |
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #13 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:50pm » |
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I understood your point Svenn and agreed with it.
That's why I cited other examples of other 'misdeeds' by other countries, including my own. No country at war is without blame.
Just wanted to acknowlege Norway's contribution to WWII as well as not many people are aware of it.
Wendy
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Simon
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #14 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 1:53pm » |
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It's important to see these things beng remembered, and not just as a solemn occasion. The town here has been making a great effort - shop windows decorated, landing craft on the beach, fly-pasts etc. They've also had tea dances in the hall - I was getting in the car last night only to be passed by an ARP warden and his lady friend (who had impressively straight stocking seams) 
Thanks to all who were there, and to all those who help us remember.
S
(In case ARP doesn't translate to US - firewatch etc)
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kimh
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #15 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 2:38pm » |
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I've been listening to the stories of the men there that day. To listen to the many voices recall that day in history for us all to understand...........humbling.
I know for myself........i'm so grateful.
PS: For any who are interested, there is a book on my list: Franklin and Winston by John Meacham.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 2:46pm by kimh » |
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #16 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 2:52pm » |
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Simon
That sounds wonderful! If it was genuine though, the seams of her stockings would have been drawn in with eyeliner pencil and she would have painted her legs with gravy browning powder as she wouldn't have had any real stockings due to rationing.
Incidentally, any woman who did have real stockings would have been accused of being a "GI Friend" as only GI's had stockings to give to women.
Wendy
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| « Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2004, 3:14pm by pubgirl » |
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BruceD
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #17 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 3:12pm » |
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Thanks WTB.
The sad truth is that the surviving WWII vets are a dwindling group. The remaining 4+ million surviving vets from WWII (out of the approximate 16+ million) are dying at a rate of about 1200 a day. Not that it's surprising that men in their 80's are passing on ... but that the history that they hold in their memories is dying with them. Heck, back during the the mid 1940's the life expectancy of those guys was only something like early 60's, so to have them living well into their 80's is great.
I think that this is one of the reasons that Ambrose was so popular as an author on WWII. He took the time to research through the writings & oral history from the men who served in WWII. It really is amazing to hear about the hero who lives next door. Unfortunately the only time you seem to hear about it is when reading their obituary. 
Later,
BruceD
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Simon
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #18 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 3:16pm » |
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Unfortunately the only time you seem to hear about it is when reading their obituary.
All too true I'm afraid. My father died in 1970, but I would love to have heard his stories via my family. Unfortunately he never spoke to them of his time as a "guest" of the Japanese...
S
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pubgirl
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #19 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 7:41pm » |
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Sad and embarassed here too, only found out one of my Great Uncles was one of the Old Contemptibles after he died. He was captured too and put in a POW camp in Siberia.
So many men never talked about what they went through, no counselling or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in those days, you were just shot for cowardice!
Wendy
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kimh
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #20 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 7:53pm » |
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Out of all that pain and all of the things we don't begin to appreciate came wonderful opportunities........I know i always flip the coin and i know it is not always a trip down poetry alley, but i think that is what allows us to step liter into the future. Those that went b4 paved a green path that we should all be skipping lite upon. ***
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Tim_Z
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #21 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 10:32pm » |
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What a great generation, they gave it all. I don't think we can truely appreaciate what they did. They are very modest about what they did. Thanks to all the WWII vets.
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Charlie
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #22 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 2:25am » |
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The Buffalo PBS station ran a 1964 90 minute documentary with Walter Cronkite and General Eisenhower touring Portsmouth, crossing the channel. and crawling all over the beaches and the German defenses. Tons of information, and especially about the 700 men lost in what he called the practice assaults and what a tragedy. True to form, he talked about all the mistakes during the invasion. What a refreshing thing to hear an adult. No one makes mistakes in 2004 it seems......
He said stuff like: "we really screwed up here...there, hit the wrong beach there, lost too many men here, overshot the zone there, and similar stuff and how lucky some of those mistakes turned out to be too. The mistakes he said kept the Germans guessing. He then went on to describe all the successes. I learned that it was Mountbatten's idea way back in 1942 to bring our own docks and build our own ports, which we did. A wonderful piece of television that hasn’t been broadcast in 30 plus years.
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Sorry I'm running on but it's fresh in my mind and when I was a boy, everybody liked Ike.
Bashing the French, especially on D-Day is childish. They lost men in the invasion too. It's time to end the idiotic shit like “Freedom Fries.” I can’t believe this came out of a U. S. Congressman’s office. Grow up.
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2004, 2:34am by Charlie » |
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The mad viking
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #23 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 5:20am » |
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Another question here.?
Should we HATE the Sweds because their government did allow the naziz to use their railroad to transport soldiers to Norway?
Sure it was a mistake from a few sweds.But HATE them now after almost 65 years.
NO WAY
Lets forgive but NOT forget
Lets instead give those Vets that still is alive the HONOR they so much DESERVE.
Svenn
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Turts
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Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today
« Reply #24 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 6:27am » |
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Back to the original point.
LEST WE FORGET!
God Bless all of us who benefited by their bravery.
Turts
Grandson of Private William Phegan. WWII
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'I'm very brave generally,' he went on in a low voice: 'only today I happen to have a headache.' (Lewis Carroll)
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