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bobkip
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sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« on: May 14th, 2004, 7:50am » |
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Who is going to take the fall? If you guessed the grunts and not the brass then you win the prize.
Lesee, take some kids with absolutely no training, put them in a situation where their only direction comes from their superiors and what do tou get. Christ, one was a truck mechanic (my old MOS, btw).
Disobey orders if they are illegal? Give me a fuckin' break! The guys and gals in the trenches know what happens if they "disobey". It's an immediate transfer to the front, where ever it might be. Hitler had the Russian front, we had a fast ticket to Nam, etx.
Aint it funny that right afer Rumsfeld's visit to Iraq, 315 "detainees" were released. Political?
I support our troops in Iraq tho I don't agree with the reason they're there but back off on the little guys and go to the top.
Kip
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JDH
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #1 on: May 14th, 2004, 8:23am » |
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on May 14th, 2004, 7:50am, bobkip wrote:I support our troops in Iraq tho I don't agree with the reason they're there but back off on the little guys and go to the top.
Kip
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I completely agree with you Kip.
When Rumsfeld says he is taking "full responsibility" what exactly does he mean? If he's the one that's ultimately responsible then shouldn't he resign?
I guess when you've got Dubya in your corner giving you props for the job you're doing you've got nothing to worry about. What a bunch of cowboys 
Jim
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TomM
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #2 on: May 14th, 2004, 8:42am » |
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on May 14th, 2004, 7:50am, bobkip wrote:Disobey orders if they are illegal? Give me a fuckin' break! The guys and gals in the trenches know what happens if they "disobey". It's an immediate transfer to the front, where ever it might be. Hitler had the Russian front, we had a fast ticket to Nam, etx.
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Kip..interesting point of view. I forgot how that works. None the less, I have a hard time believing that anyone would perform so out of character because they were told to do so. Maybe I'm different...I stood a Captains Mast [USCG]and possible Courts Martial because I did not believe in the methodology of what my supervisor was telling me to do....as it turns out, all charges were dropped. That was 1985, this is now, and I was not fighting in a war. Very different times and situations. I just can not swallow the line "I was given a direct order to follow, so I'm innocent." A Few Good Men addressed this exact issue...art imitating life or vice versa?
Everyone [I hope and believe] has moral values and everyone, soldiers, airmen, and seamen alike, are required to exercise moral values when carrying out an order.
TomM
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Ree
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #3 on: May 14th, 2004, 9:06am » |
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I see that release as 315 more insurgents for MY KID to deal with............sick..........ree
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vig
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #4 on: May 14th, 2004, 9:09am » |
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on May 14th, 2004, 8:23am, JDH wrote:
When Rumsfeld says he is taking "full responsibility" what exactly does he mean? If he's the one that's ultimately responsible then shouldn't he resign?
Jim
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That's the difference between responsibility and accountability.
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Bob P
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #5 on: May 14th, 2004, 9:29am » |
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Quote:| Who is going to take the fall? If you guessed the grunts and not the brass then you win the prize. |
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Disagree. The commanding general was relieved of duty the day after the investigation started. I don't know if she will stand criminal charges but at the very least her military career is trash.
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bobkip
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #6 on: May 14th, 2004, 9:38am » |
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Bullshit Bob, It;s still the (our) kids that take the brunt. And so what the fuck if some obscure general gets a slap???? It's still the same ol same ol.
Kip
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Racer1_NC
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #7 on: May 14th, 2004, 11:40am » |
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Without trying to start another debate like the "sick of this war" thread......
The military is really no different than big business when is comes to passing the buck down the ladder. Do something to make the company tons of cash? The CEO and VP's take the stage and the glory while patting each other on the back for "finding the best people and creating a culture of success". Screw up? The poor slob(s) is out on his/her ass while everyone else shakes their heads and claims ignorance, but still get to cash the large bonus checks.
This of course assumes that it really wasn't just a few guys and gals on the bottom screwing up.
If a man having his privates laughed at by a woman is torture, I guess I have excellent grounds for a lawsuit against an old girlfriend. 
Bill
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HypnoticFreddy
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #8 on: May 14th, 2004, 11:51am » |
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Bill,
Agreed.
-Scott
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BlueMeanie
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #9 on: May 14th, 2004, 1:26pm » |
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Should we let our own prisoners here in the USA go just because they get humiliated ? What a crock. Set the enemy free. The same enemy that wold have slashed our throats if they were not captured. It's just another American political jesture.
KIP is right. Those guys & gals, weather right, or wrong, were following orders during a wartime situation. Sure they could have ignored those orders. If they did, they too would be in the brigg for no telling how long before someone figured out they were right be not folowing orders.
Let the brass tack the brunt of this unfortunate situation, not the little guy.
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floridian
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #10 on: May 14th, 2004, 2:08pm » |
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Quote:| I see that release as 315 more insurgents for MY KID to deal with............sick..........ree |
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Well, if you believe the International Red Cross, 90% of the Iraqi prisoners are innocents who just happened to get caught up in a dragnet. If a republican kid from Philadelphia like Nick Berg spent two weeks without charges against him, the 90% number doesn't sound too far-fetched. But your right - a few months in Abu Graib might push some of those 315 to the insurgency.
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| « Last Edit: May 14th, 2004, 2:11pm by floridian » |
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notseinfeld
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #11 on: May 14th, 2004, 3:41pm » |
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Luckily I don't believe the Red Cross--or the BBC, or the LA Times, or the dozens of other communist sycophants. The bias is soooo horrible in the media that on the day poor Nick Berg had his throat cut, the Atlanta Journal Constitution (Atlanta's excuse for a newspaper) had the front page article about how Phillips Arena had a bunch of fire code violations.
Do I need to elaborate on why?
Our country needs to stop being so PC and worried about what everyone else thinks and start protecting its own. Of course, there are 2 countries in our country, the right and the left. Pretty sad on both parts in a time of war.
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BobG
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #12 on: May 14th, 2004, 4:59pm » |
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Here's my take...
Kip, you're 110% correct.
Fuck the Red Cross. It's nothing but big business. It's propaganda is all bullshit.
And the Nick Berg thing...........it's gets curiouser and curiouser
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pubgirl
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #13 on: May 14th, 2004, 5:10pm » |
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Just in case it doesn't get reported over there, the Editor of one of our national tabloid newspapers The Daily Mirror (which printed the alleged "abuse" photos involving British troops) has just been sacked as the photos have turned out to be total fakes.
Propaganda isn't the word. Terrible damage to the British soldiers' reputations has been done and I'm sure no-one in Iraq will believe they were fakes. That mad Moslem cleric Sheikh Albathingy has been using the Mirror fake pictures to whip up resistance to the British troops in Basra already.
Wendy
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| « Last Edit: May 14th, 2004, 5:14pm by pubgirl » |
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Charlie
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #14 on: May 15th, 2004, 2:37am » |
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Quote: has just been sacked as the photos have turned out to be total fakes.
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Coolness Wendy. I have to catch up on this story.
It's refreshing the way you tea swillers deal with stuff like this. Ministers of one thing or another either resign or get the boot when it hits the fan over there. Never here. Here, it's like Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld who says he accepts the responsibility and then lets everyone else take the fall. That's the way it's done here. It leaves something to be desired.
When the little guy gets caught spewing falsehoods, it's a lie. When George Bush and his ilk get caught, it's faulty intelligence......not their fault of course. They are "victims."
This thing has really stirred it up Wendy.
Charlie
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kimh
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #15 on: May 15th, 2004, 7:45am » |
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Wendy,
Kewlness indeed. Please feel free to let me know if i have misunderstood your post.
Your post in essence points out that the "media" distorted and inflated the facts and was called to the plate on it. I wish that would happen more often, maybe it would stimulate ethical reporting. Sensationalist journalism confuses the public and sets out to harm the integrity of the military and its current leadership.
Charlie I do not understand your post in response to Wendy's post. Apples and oranges. But, then again, i haven't had my coffee yet  
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Bob P
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #16 on: May 15th, 2004, 7:48am » |
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Geez. Some of the pics show that Lindsey bimbo having sex with her boyfriend in front of the prisoners! Even you guys can't believe that somebody ordered them to do that. What we have is a handful of green MPs who got carried away with their newfound power.
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Charlie
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #17 on: May 15th, 2004, 8:12am » |
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It was kind of disjointed Kimh.
I stuck in stuff from something I read the other day.
By the way: If you think our media is tough today; it's nothing like the 19th century or even the Chicago Tribune 70 years ago. 200 years ago, political "reporting" was usually slander. Jefferson was called everything in the book and his friends were even worse. (How does Calander spell his name?) It was a trip.
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: May 16th, 2004, 2:45am by Charlie » |
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kimh
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #18 on: May 15th, 2004, 8:17am » |
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Oh.
That explains everything
Fair enough, but i need more coffee for this one 
Oy. Vey.
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pubgirl
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Re: sick of prisoner abuse BUT...
« Reply #19 on: May 15th, 2004, 7:22pm » |
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Just to clarify. The Editor in question Piers Morgan seems ( I stress seems) to have truly believed that the photos were genuine. He was being told by everyone else that they were fakes and insisted on continuing to print front pages for days. When it turned out they were fakes, he was sacked by his BOD as he refused to resign.
W
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