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Topic: This damn war! I've had it! sorry (Read 2282 times) |
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5-string
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This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« on: May 11th, 2004, 11:47pm » |
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I'm tired of pretending this mess is'nt scaring the hell out of me. I'm too young to remember the Veitnam conflict.(I was 6 when it ended) So my generation is not conditioned to being a part of war. I guess I'm blessed that our generation made it this far,but shit. This really sucks. And I'm not even over there. I'm safe,at home.
I love this country. I proudly display an American flag everywhere I spend time(my car,my house,my work station and my banjo case.)because it means something to me.
Will someone please put a positive spin on this?
I just can't..
The character of a person is judged by how they treat there foes.... I've never been in battle,so I don't know what it's like under those circumstances.
I do,however,salute ALL of the solders over there.
Peace,
...Mark..
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Jimmy_B
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #1 on: May 12th, 2004, 6:50am » |
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Two words.......
As it appears you're alluding to the treatment of a few Iraqi P.O.W.'s..."The character of a person is judged by how they treat there foes.... " Here is a guy, whose only crime was looking for some good pay & decided to go to Iraq. He was captured & beheaded...while that's bad enough, his captors also video-taped it & have put it on a Militant Islamic Web Site. Seeing that, it's easy to see who the "Good Guys" are.
I will never know the reason the few American Soldiers degraded those P.O.W.'s the way they did. Being in a war...I can understand how you would get severely pissed at someone who's trying to kill you & demand revenge.
Whether we like it or not...we're there...& we have to stand behind all of our soldiers. Remember, these are kids in their late teens who now see horrors that most people could not comprehend.
Jimmy
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helpless23
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #2 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:07am » |
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Yeah, and what is sad is that he had to go to Iraq to find good pay?
Gee, can we say "economy sucks"?
I hate what's going on too. I hate the killings and the murders and the mistreatment of AMERICANS!
I don't understand it, I never will.
I must be in the same age group as 5-string here - because I feel like he does. And I have children. And it's so hard nowadays - you dont' even want to let them out of your house because you can't be so ignorant and say "It will never happen to me!". I've learned that the hard way with my son's diabetes.
My 2 cents.
Much Love,
Toni
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Lizzie2
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #3 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:15am » |
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Just an article on Nick. I know I said it on the other post, but Nick didn't go because he was looking to make money...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_ us/american_beheaded_victim_2
I do agree that we need to support all of our troops there. I don't like how they are trying to blame Nick's death on the mistreatment of POW's. Well, maybe they are angry and want revenge, but they have always believed in senseless killing...
It DOES just go to show that they are the enemy and how far they will go to prove that.
I was upset by the photos that came out of the mistreatment of the POW's...but that is NOTHING compared to these senseless acts of Al-Quaida and their affiliated groups.
One thing that I guess complicates all the issues is that Iraq was not directly responsible for 9/11. That makes this war confusing for a whole lot of us. But as evidenced by the death of Nick Berg, groups related to Al-Quaida do exist in Iraq, too. It is all such a big mess there!!
I hope that we can bring our military home safely very soon...
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Killroy 2.0
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #4 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:18am » |
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thomas
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #5 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:28am » |
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In a foreign field he lay
Lonely soldier unkown grave
On his dying words he prays
Tell the world of Paschendale
Relive all that he's been through
Last communioun of his soul
Rust your bullets with his tears
Let me tell you 'bout his years
Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again
In the smoke in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and the end of us all
Whistles, shouts and more gun fire
Lifeless bodies hang on barbed wire
Battlefield nothing but a bloody tomb
Be reunited with my dead friends soon
Many soldiers eighteen years
Drown in mud no more tears
Surely a war no-one can win
Killing time about to begin
Home, far away
From the war, a chance to live again
Home, far away
But the war, no chance to live again
The bodies of ours and our foes
The sea of death it overflows
In no man's kand god only knows
Into jaws of death we go
Crucified as if on a cross
Allied troops they mourn their loss
German war propaganda machine
Such before has never been seen
Swear I heard the angels cry
Pray to god no more may die
So that people know the truth
Tell the tale of Paschendale
Cruelty has a human heart
Everyman does play his part
Terror of the men we kill
The human heart is hungry still
I stand my ground for the very last time
Gun is ready as I stand in line
Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go
Blood is falling like the rain
It's crimson cloak unveils again
The sound of guns can't hide their shame
And so we die on Paschendale
Dodging shrapnel and barbed wire
Running straight at the cannon fire
Running blind as I hold my breath
Say a prayer symphony of death
As we charge the enemy lines
A burst of fire and we go down
I choke a cry but no-one hears
Fell the blood go down my throat
Home, far away
From the war, a chance to live again
Home, far away
But the war, no chance to live again
See my spirit on the wind
Across the lines beyond the hill
Friend and foe will meet again
Those who died at Paschendale
Steve Harris and Adrian Smith- Iron Maiden.
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 9:30am by thomas » |
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floridian
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #6 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:46am » |
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Truly tragic. A decent person that wanted to build a business helping others, and tended to help others alot more than he profited.
Quote:| I don't like how they are trying to blame Nick's death on the mistreatment of POW's. |
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I don't think the press has put blame on the POW issue. They did report the statements of the killers who said they did it in revenge, but that is just news - people will take the statements of the killers for what their worth - nothing. And your right, Al Qaeda was killing innocent people long before the prisoner torture. Daniel Perl in Pakistan was another example.
Quote:| But as evidenced by the death of Nick Berg, groups related to Al-Quaida do exist in Iraq, too. |
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The Ansar al-Islam group (Al Qaeda affiliate) has been active in Northern Iraq for the past few years - Saddam lost control of Northern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. Ansar used the chaos of the past year to move into the rest of Iraq. Now Iraq is a magnet for groups that want to wage violent jihad.
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JDH
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #7 on: May 12th, 2004, 9:55am » |
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on May 12th, 2004, 9:15am, Lizzie2 wrote:
One thing that I guess complicates all the issues is that Iraq was not directly responsible for 9/11. That makes this war confusing for a whole lot of us. |
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You're right Lizzie, THAT confuses me big time.
WTF are we doing with 140,000 troops in Iraq when it was Al Quaida who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks?
Why isn't there more effort being put into finding Osama bin Laden? Seems to me he's the guy who needs to be taken out.
Jim
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KingOfPain
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #8 on: May 12th, 2004, 11:16am » |
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I would invite all the bleeding heart Iraqi/Islamic/anti-war supporters
to explain their views to THESE families.
_____________________________________________
Michael Berg, left, collapses to the ground in front of the family house in West Chester, Pa., and is comforted by his son, David, after learning from a reporter Tuesday of the existence of a video showing the beheading of his other son, Nick.
The decapitation (of Nick Berg) recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects — including those who allegedly slit his throat — remain at large.
Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic.
_____________________________________________
Rest In Peace Nick Berg.
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 12:15pm by KingOfPain » |
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Edski_1
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #9 on: May 12th, 2004, 11:20am » |
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Regarding the prisoner aabuse: say what you will about the "enemy" over there, the abuse is a horrible PR move and gives ammunition to critics. For all those who say "Saddam was worse" or "look what they did to those contracters at the end of March" I would ask:
Is this what we want our nation's policy to be?
I would also ask if people seriously believe the prison abuse was the work of few bad apples. The Administration has openly stated that they don;t feel compelled to abide by the Geneva Conventions anymore. Whatever the case I feel there has been a complete breakdown in the Military Chain of Command. If there were actions by a few going un-noticed there was a lack of discipline and control. If it was sanctioned from above, even tacitly, there was a grave error in command decisions. Either way it's a poor reflection on the Leadership.
Regarding Iraq's connections to Al-Queda and 9/11: There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. And the Al-Queda operative in Iraq before Saddam was deposed were NOT his allies. The country is teeming with terrorists now because of the instability there now. It's a good place to target American servicement and civilians precisely due to the lack of control there.
So much of the problems in Iraq that are presently happening were predicted by people of both conservative and liberal nature BEFORE we went in...supporters and detractors. The fact that things are going so badly now speaks volumes to me of the arrogance of our present Administration, who would not HEAR OF IT, when questions were raised before commiting tothis war. The distancing from our "allies", especially in Europe add to this perception of arrogance, as does Dick Cheny's recent remarks about Don Rumsfeld being "the best Defense Secretary in the country's hsitory" and people should just "get off his case".
Seems to me that this Administration has no one willing to take the heat for this situation and are continually pointing fingers when things go wrong. Truman's contention of "the buck stops here" is definitely NOT a concept this adminsitration embraces.
The whole set of reasons for going into Iraw in the first place was based on mis-interpreted or perhaps even falsified "intelligence". UN Weapos inspections were stopped supposedly becasue Saddam wasn't cooperating, but it looks like they were stopped becasue the longer they went on, the less the WMD excuse was going to fly.
And where's Osama? Is there even a real effort to get that bastard, or are the ties between Bush's oil business interests and the Bin Laden's in Saudi Arabia getting in the way?
This whole episode in our history smelled from the beginning, and smells worse now. And don't expect it to get any better there. The terrorists are just starting to get cranked up. Without doubling the number of troops on the ground in Iraq that place will NEVER be secured.
But that's just another one of the contentions the Bush Administration decided to ignore before going in.
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ckelly181
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #10 on: May 12th, 2004, 11:28am » |
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A friend of Nick Berg's said this on a morning show today:
The Iraqi's don't know it, but they killed a best friend when they murdered Nick Berg.
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Leesa
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #11 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:03pm » |
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first the tears come
then the anger sets in 
Yes Im scared too.
Leesa
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Jimmy_B
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #12 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:18pm » |
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"It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
- General William Tecumseh Sherman
Jimmy
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HypnoticFreddy
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #13 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:21pm » |
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President Bush said earlier this week that "Donald Rumsfeld is, "courageously leading our nation,'' He goes on to say that, "You are doing a superb job, and that Americans owe Donald Rumsfeld a debt of gratitude for his execution of the war in Iraq, despite a growing political crisis over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers.
Are you fucking serious?!?!
WASHINGTON: Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean called on Friday for Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign, citing a “pattern of deception” in his statements on Iraq and a failure to plan for the postwar period. Dean is the second Democratic candidate for the 2004 presidential nomination to seek Rumsfeld’s resignation as critics of the Bush administration turn up the heat on the Pentagon amid continued violence in Iraq. Massachusetts Sen John Kerry called on Thursday for Rumsfeld to step down, saying he proceeded in Iraq “in an arrogant, inappropriate way that has frankly put America at jeopardy.” Dean, the former governor of Vermont, also said Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz should resign and announced he was starting a national petition drive on the Internet to demonstrate support for their resignations. Republican National Committee spokeswoman Christine Iverson said Dean and Kerry were “playing a game of political copy cat. If John Kerry calls for one administration official to resign, Howard Dean has to call for two.” Dean accused the Bush administration of “a long line of problematic statements” on Iraq, from his disputed State of the Union message about Iraq’s attempts to acquire uranium for a nuclear weapon to claims of ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda. “This pattern of deception is but one major reason that this administration deserves to be fired by the American people,” said Dean, who also cited the “abject failure” to plan for a postwar Iraq. “There is no need to wait until the next election to hold the major architects of this disaster responsible for their gross incompetence,” he said. “The time has come for the president to fire them.” —Reuters
This is out of hand completely. If you want to see a cool website go to www.moveon.org
-Scott
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thomas
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #14 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:22pm » |
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on May 12th, 2004, 12:18pm, Jimmy_B wrote:
- General William Tecumseh Sherman |
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That guy was a real a$$hole
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 12:25pm by thomas » |
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KingOfPain
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #15 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:23pm » |
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'Coffins after coffins'
One of the militants reads a lengthy denunciation of the United States and the abuse by U.S. troops of Iraqis detained in a prison near Baghdad.
"How can a free Muslim sleep well as he sees Islam slaughtered and its dignity bleeding, and the pictures of shame and the news of the devilish scorn of the people of Islam - men and women - in the prison of Abu Ghraib?" the speaker demands in Arabic.
"We tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."
Following the statement, the men pull Berg down and slash at his neck with a large knife as he screams. Shouting "God is greatest!" the men saw off his head.
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 12:32pm by KingOfPain » |
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We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter.
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Real friendship is shown in times of trouble; prosperity is full of friends. - Euripides
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Bob P
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Shut up Bob!
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #16 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:23pm » |
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You did what the weaker would never dare to do,
you walked where those so critical would never be brave enough to walk,
you saw things that those of lesser character could never bear to see,
you felt the putridness of fear in the bowels of your soul,
and yet you walked on to a mission you did not choose.
May your soul find peace in death,
among the highest angels of Heaven.
Quote:| Massachusetts Sen John Kerry called on Thursday for Rumsfeld to step down, saying he proceeded in Iraq “in an arrogant, inappropriate way that has frankly put America at jeopardy.” |
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This from the guy who admitted to witnessing and participating in war atrocities in Nam.
Rumsfeld is running a war while other are playing politics.
Kick ass and don't bother to take names America!
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 12:32pm by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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thomas
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #17 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:30pm » |
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on May 12th, 2004, 12:23pm, Bob P wrote:You did what the weaker would never dare to do,
you walked where those so critical would never be brave enough to walk,
you saw things that those of lesser character could never bear to see,
you felt the putridness of fear in the bowels of your soul,
and yet you walked on to a mission you did not choose.
May your soul find peace in death,
among the highest angels of Heaven. |
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Wow, Bob, I never knew you had that in you. Very nice.
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Bob P
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Shut up Bob!
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #18 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:34pm » |
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I'm not the author. It is a Nam poem that is on a web page on my site which is dedicated to my best friend, killed in Nam.
http://pahlow.net/nam/saga_continues.htm
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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KingOfPain
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #19 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:36pm » |
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Bob P,
Thank you for the poem & the link.
("Borrowed" from http://pahlow.net/nam/saga_continues.htm
Thank you).
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| « Last Edit: May 12th, 2004, 12:39pm by KingOfPain » |
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We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter.
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Real friendship is shown in times of trouble; prosperity is full of friends. - Euripides
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Gator
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #20 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:38pm » |
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Mark, you don't need to pretend this doesn't scare the hell out of you. It scares the hell out of anyone with half a brain and it's hard to put a positive spin on something as ugly as war.
It was a serious lack of judgement that allowed those Iraqi prisoners to be mistreated as they were, but an investigation had already been started and we were already in the process of correcting the problem when the story and pictures were leaked to the press. Whoever leaked the story is just as responsible for the death of this young man as the people who killed him.
This incident also goes to show who it is we are fighting. Several iraqi men were mistreated and embarassed, NOT killed and the terrorist response is decapitation of an innocent man. Not even a soldier whose business is war, but a civilian whose main reason for being there was to HELP rebuild that country. These are the kind of people behind acts such as the first bombing of the World Trade Center, which went largely unresponded to (thanks Bill), so they felt confident enough to try again on 9/11 and the bombings in Spain and other attacks around the world whether successful or not.
We took up the fight against terrorism worldwide and said who is with us and everyone raised their hands. It was great as long as we didn't actually do anything about it. Everyone was on the bandwagon until the first battle. Now those gungho allies have all but backed out of it totally. Hell, Spain even let the terrorists choose who was going to run their country, because they are so afraid. The question is - if Radical Islamic Terrorism scares them so much, why won't they help fight against it? Radical Islamic Terrorism is a problem facing the entire world, not just America, but see who is left in the fight and who is threatening to pull out and lay down and cower to these extremists. These terror groups are trained in and financed by many, if not most of the Middle Eastern countries. Pakistan and Iraq are only two of many. We went into Pakistan and gave it back to the people. We went into Iraq and are in the process of giving it back to the people. We are over there to liberate a people from a ruthless dictator and his maniacal sons who for the sheer fun of it killed hunderds of thousands - maybe millions - of it's own people. We find more and more mass graves where their bodies have been dumped like so much trash. The dictator is captured, the sons are dead and we are now trying to rebuild the country. Radical Islamic terrorists are trying to keep the people from being free for the first time in their lives. Free thinking, self-ruling people are a danger to them. So they are fighting against us to keep these people in the bondage and fear that makes them easy to control.
What scares me most, is that there seems to be a ground swell of anti-Americanism rising in THIS country. This "Blame America First" mentality. Even Americans are starting to blame America for everything that goes wrong in any part of this world. Famines, floods, power outages, epidemics, lack of medicines, lack of technology, global warming - all our fault somehow. This generation's children have grown up taking for granted their freedoms and liberties. They have no idea that freedom isn't free. No idea that it was paid for by the blood of their fathers and grandfathers and no idea that if they want to keep it, by their own sacrifice as well.
We need to go back to teaching pride in our country to our children. A country that gives millions of tons of food, clothing, equipment and medical supplies to poorer nations around the world. A country that when one of our allies is in trouble, comes to their rescue immediately. A country that rescued Europe twice in one century from the hands of zealots and madmen. A country that ended the cold war. And unfortunately, now a country whose fair weather friends forget everything we have ever done for them when we ask for a little help.
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BstnEagles
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #21 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:40pm » |
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God Bless America and our troops. Its a terrible war that has some positive compnents (goodbye Saddam). However, I think that Bush and Rumsfield need to go. I feel as though the web of deception gets thicker each day.
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thomas
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #22 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:42pm » |
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Ditto Gator, Ditto Gator.
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KingOfPain
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #23 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:43pm » |
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Thank you Gator.
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We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter.
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Real friendship is shown in times of trouble; prosperity is full of friends. - Euripides
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Cerberus
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Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry
« Reply #24 on: May 12th, 2004, 12:58pm » |
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Quote:WTF are we doing with 140,000 troops in Iraq when it was Al Quaida who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks?
Why isn't there more effort being put into finding Osama bin Laden? Seems to me he's the guy who needs to be taken out. |
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Let me clear this up a bit...(Sorry folks but this chaps my ass)
After 9-11 we declared a war on terrorism (we have all been told this 1000 times it should not be unclear) If we are to establish a better intelligence community in the very closed societies that make up the midlle-east we have to be able to access any part of the region at will...Osama can do it (move across borders at will) we need to be able to do the same. Take a look at your world maps folks and tell me where Iraq is geographically....thats right, smack in the middle of the area, major shipping port, supply of enough refinable crude to fuel our military, and boredered by almost every nation we need access to for inteligence. Its plain good battle tactics.
Saddam Hussein.........noone opposed war against Hitler having murdered 5 million Jews and ethnics. There was no opposition to our action in bosnia either...hrrrrmmmmm, I suppose the 5000 kurds, thousands of kuwaitis in the early 90's and the tourture and murder of thousands of his own Iraqi's isnt enough for us to take decisive action. (THIS IS THE PART THAT ASTOUNDS ME).
The U.N. is a joke..."lets leave Saddam alone and impose more sanctions".....ARE YOU KIDDING!? what good are economic sanctions going to do against an already starving and economically suppresed people....alow me to clear this up too....NOTHING!!! In case anyone has doubts, Saddam Lived like a KING because he used Iraq's money and resources for his own benefit instead of using it for his country. That is why he was rich and in power and the people starved. It is also the reason why the Iraqi's couldn't overthrow him. THEY HAD NOTHING!
Now, if any of this is still unclear.....then you watch too much TV. There NEVER should have been "imbedded reporters" the media does NOT belong on the battlefield. War is brutal and regardless of your intent, things happen that just shouldn't be released. The Media shows two versions of war, either what OUR government wants or thinks you should see and/or what the rest of the world percieves, ALL of it involving the humanitarian atrocities and horrors and LITTLE if any at all can be regarded as truth. Those of you who served in Vietnam, Korea, or any other war know this all too well.
Ramon
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I would rather face the end with terror than terror without end. - (Deitrich Sawatsky 194?)
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