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Topic: clusters and human evolution (Read 783 times) |
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Nathan
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clusters and human evolution
« on: Feb 21st, 2004, 6:35pm » |
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ok, i know this is gonna sound WAY out there but here goes....
every species on the planet is evolving slowly, we all know this is a fact. my question is... how do we know that clusters (as painful as they are) arent a part of human evolution? there is such a small percent of us out there, the docs are clueless as to why we have them, where they come from ect.... i mean really, how do we know? typically when people dont understand something as serious as clusters they do 2 things. 1, come up with a bullshit explanation for it and 2, try to get rid of it. in our case by dumping drug after drug on us with no effect. maybe these things are SUPPOSED to happen for whatever reason. we only use a small % of our brain now, maybe this is part of it we dont use waking up. the unfortunate side effect is the pain. its awful, it even kills some of us, but what if the pain itsself is a side effect of whatever is really happening?
i know this sounds like total sci-fi (and to be honest the idea occured to me while watching a star trek ng episode right after having a horrible fight with my demon) but just think about it for a min and if possible...can any one tell me that i am 100% wrong? i would love to hear your thoughts, i have been thinking about this for weeks and finally decided to seek others opinions on it. please share, and thanks for listening.
------Nathan W, cronic for 4 years straight with no relief.
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tiredofclusters
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #1 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 6:54pm » |
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All i know, is everytime i have a ch i lose some brain cells!!! and some hair to.
Neal
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Cerberus
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #2 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 7:25pm » |
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Interesting thought, Nathan...
As you well know already NOTHING is certain 100% and this is not a new concept to me, I have wondered the exact same thing.
However, I would suggest the evidence is in the medical testing area that so many of us have gone through. IF evolution were the cause I would THINK that it would show in our tests...i.e. MRIs and CT scans should reveal the smallest of changes on a year to year basis at least for those who have had these tests done in subsequent years.
That theory exacts another question since we already know evolution to be the dominant reason for the extinction or proliferation of the surviving results.
If evolution is the cause of this horrendous pain, and so few of us out of the whole suffer in such a way, are we destined to evolve forward and progressing or are we in fact suffering the results of not evolving fast enough and in fact being eliminated from keeping up with the rest of the species?
Excellent question though. Its that kind of thinking that discovered the anomaly in the first place.
Ramon
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M.R.
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #3 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 7:29pm » |
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Glad to see that your feeling better Ramon
See ya
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Cerberus
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #4 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 7:36pm » |
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I really think too much...
Ramon
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Giovanni
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #5 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 7:47pm » |
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My theory.............probably wrong.
I kinda think the pain is a mechanism that induces/manufactures chemicals that we're in critical shortage. The pain itself forces these chemicals to be manufactured by another means rather than the way it naturally would be.
Hell of a way to make chemicals, huh?
John
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eyes_afire
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #6 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 8:24pm » |
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Hi Nathan,
Obviously I can't tell for sure whether you're right or wrong... I can only offer my thoughts.
The concept of evolution is based in part on 'survival of the fittest'. The best genes get passed on for the betterment of the species and the faulty genes get weeded out through biological competition. If what you're suggesting is true, then we couldn't call it evolution. We'd have to call it de-evolution (especially if it kills some of us)... it's anti-evolutionary. 
--- Steve
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BobG
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #7 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 8:42pm » |
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on Feb 21st, 2004, 7:25pm, Cerberus wrote: If evolution is the cause of this horrendous pain, and so few of us out of the whole suffer in such a way, are we destined to evolve forward and progressing or are we in fact suffering the results of not evolving fast enough and in fact being eliminated from keeping up with the rest of the species?
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I think Clusterheads are evolving forward. We are ahead of the pack. Someday, in a galaxy far far away, everyone will have clusters and there will be a website with discussions on "Hey, my head didn't hurt yesterday or today. WTF? Am I going to die from this?"
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Kevin_M
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #8 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 9:39pm » |
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Evolution seems to select those best adapted to the present situation, who reproduce. CH as an adaptation?
I have only read of a study done in Milan lately which showed that on chromosome 1, a malfunction of the pump which shifts sodium and potassium through the cell causes the cells to swell in the gray matter. Not a favored selective quality. I would guess this pain IS what's suppose to happen if that mechanism malfunctions. The pain would be a signal saying something is f*cking wrong.
Interesting that this was found when research funding was allocated for migraine research and was being looked into as a link to migraines. No mention of cluster in the blurb I read.
Mention if a cell should malfunction in such a way to a cellular biologist (or whatever they are called) and
watch him/her go uhh.......(long pause).
Our only hope is if migraine research falls *ssbackwards onto something for us. We are last in line for the kind of money to bring something from research to market for us.
Anyway, off the subject of evolution, venting. I would hope Darwin could explain with more than my... shit happens.
Thanks for thinking of bringing the thought up. The answer is out there. I'll keep reading. Don't run into ANY genetic studies related to clusters, but I'm a babe in those woods.
Kevin M
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Charlie
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #9 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 10:17pm » |
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Interesting and hard to ignore the possibility. Our tests wouldn't show evolutionary changes that take over tens of thousands of years or more. I'm pretty sure we are in some early stages of walking upright. Our backs need a lot more time to catch up with our zeal to stand up.
For now, I'll chalk it up to sloppy engineering.
Evolve....Charlie
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Nathan
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #10 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 11:58pm » |
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im trying to keep positive on this theory and assume that clusterheads are the forward stage of evolution. after all, we are dealing with pain unimaginable to the "normal" person, and as they say "what doesnt kill you makes you stronger" so we have that. plus, i have to go back to the brain example. we only use a percantage of our gray matter now, maybe this is part we dont use waking up. im not saying that people with clusters will be reading minds anytime soon (but try topomax at high doses and you will swear to god you can hear peoples thoughts, predict the future,ect).
i asked a female with clusters one time if the pain is close to labor pains and she said she would rather have a child than a cluster attack. if the pain of labor is one that brings life then wouldnt it make sence that opening a part of our minds that has never been "born" cause pain?.
i have to concur with another post on this topic.... i think to damn much!! ----N
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Opus
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #11 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:11am » |
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That's funny because I believe humans have unevolved, that we started in perfect health forever, then limited to a life span of 1000 years, then because of changes in the atmosphere we were limited to 125 years, and through lots of mutations we have become this disease ridden race which has only improved with recent successes in modern medicine. Wow that was a run on sentence, well any way that is what I believe but nobody listens to what I say anyway.
Opus/Paul
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BobG
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #12 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:32am » |
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on Feb 21st, 2004, 6:35pm, Nathan wrote:| i would love to hear your thoughts, |
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Quote:but try topomax at high doses and you will swear to god you can hear peoples thoughts, predict the future,ect).
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LMAO....
I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts too. And I want x-ray vision. Can I have some of that topomax that you've been smokin'?
Who's Opus and what did he say?
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Mr. Happy
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #13 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:33am » |
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Quote:| That's funny because I believe humans have unevolved |
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Quote:| We'd have to call it de-evolution |
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DING! Right on the money, Lads. Devolution is the key to the situation.
Survival of the fittest.....hmmm, let's see........
Bad teeth, can't chew? No worries. Fill them teef, cap `em or falsify them.
Bad eyes, can't see? Not a problem. Glasses or contacts.
Sickly, lousy health, herd thinning plague? Heck, break out them pills.
We've removed ourselves from the evolutionary scale, as well as the food chain.
If CH is evolution, then cover me in hair, gimme a good tree and a bucket of bananas.
In spite of it's best efforts, humanity proves itself, time and again, to be little more than a Virus with Shoes. Go Darwin.
Live Long and Prosper,
RJ
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Lizzie2
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #14 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 1:23am » |
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It's funny, but certain really serious diseases seem to be designed to help our evolution. For instance, people with cystic fibrosis are able to fight cholera, and people with sickle cell anemia are able to fend off malaria. It seems like CF and SC have evolved out of a need for humans to survive other horrible diseases. However, the genes stuck around even in places where these diseases are not prevalent.
I talked to a doc about the history of cystic fibrosis in my family, and he said it is my duty not to have children to avoid passing along a faulty gene. I thought that was a little extreme! I guess he is for survival of the fittest, which our modern medicine kind of selects against. Now that we can treat so many diseases, the "unfit" can survive a whole lot longer than they used to! This gives them time to pass along all sorts of faulty genes!
It's a weird concept. Mankind has really messed with biology in more ways than one! But I'm still glad for modern medicine!!
Lizzie 
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jonny
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #15 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 2:48am » |
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on Feb 21st, 2004, 9:39pm, Kevin_M wrote:| Evolution seems to select those best adapted to the present situation |
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Yeah, kinda like when I put a 9 to your head and tell you......LOL
..................................jonny
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| « Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2004, 2:48am by jonny » |
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Kirk
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #16 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 5:56am » |
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Evolution doesn't seem to far fetched. Maybe whatever function that is causing these things just hasn't finished and we're stuck in the middle ground.
When going through tests and studies at the VA Hosp. in Portland. Besides the extra gray matter on the hypothalmis. They found that my circadian rythem is set to a 25 hour day.
Figures I would screw my own day up. Don't need any help from the ground grippers 
TTFN
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Kevin_M
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #17 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 7:31am » |
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on Feb 22nd, 2004, 2:48am, jonny wrote:
Yeah, kinda like when I put a 9 to your head and tell you......LOL
..................................jonny
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I hear that when bees find flower pollen, they fly back to the hive and do a dance to tell the other bees where to fly to. If I went back to the hive with my 9 dance, the other bees' quick consensus would be...DON'T LEAVE THE HIVE!!!
Kevin M
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Hirvimaki
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #18 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 8:55am » |
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Interesting hypothesis.
A few thoughts while my pain-ridden, rapidly evolving brain is clear enough to post.
The idea that we only use a small portion of our brain has been kicked about for years. The most common "10 percent statistic" has been attributed to William James, a psychologist and philosopher who lived in the late nineteenth century. What James actually said was "we are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources" (The Energies of Men, 1908). Various other parties, among them anthropologist Margaret Mead (Mead supposedly said we used only 6 percent.), have mentioned similar things. But such figures have no scientific basis except in the most limited sense. We may not use our brains as proficiently as is possible, but there is no evidence we have vast unused abilities. We don't use all the tens of billions of neurons in our brain - the brain was built with wonderful redundancy as evidenced by its ability to recover from a stroke - but attempts to map out the cerebral cortex, the center of the higher mental functions, have not found large areas that don't do anything.
I'd have to argue against the "CH as an evolutionary step" on two counts. One: Widespread interbreeding among population groups has a leveling effect. You generally only see noticeable changes when a group is reproductively isolated and key genes are passed by inbreeding, as with sickle-cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease. Unless more goes on at those lauded conventions I have yet to attend, I doubt we could be called an "isolated reproductive group". And two: Evolutionary development really has one thing in mind when it occurs (although there are numerous side issues), namely useful mutations increase chances of reproductive success.
Now if you want to say that through genetic mutation we have developed a maladaptive but not immediately fatal mutation, I'd say that's closer to the truth.
Hirvimaki
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floridian
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #19 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 9:54am » |
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Evolution is blind. Occasionally good things occur, but most random genetic changes are bad. I would put clusters in the bad category.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2004, 9:55am by floridian » |
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t_h_b
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #20 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:54am » |
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on Feb 22nd, 2004, 5:56am, Kirk wrote:
When going through tests and studies at the VA Hosp. in Portland. Besides the extra gray matter on the hypothalmis. They found that my circadian rythem is set to a 25 hour day.
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You're perfectly normal then.
Experiments depriving subjects of time cues (daylight, clocks, etc.) have shown that a 25 hour +/- cycle is the normal circadian rythym. The most accepted theory is that the pineal gland, when stimulated by light, resets the clock to 24 hours by releasing melatonin.
There are other "clocks" in the body that are not very well understand.
Heres an outline of some of this information, with illustrations:
http://lifesci.rutgers.edu/~auerbach/bmlec14.pdf
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No, it's not a headache--it's a Stage Ten Primary Chronic Periodic Idiopathic Trigeminovascular Cephalalgic Crisis.
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Sean_C
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #21 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 11:00am » |
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Sometimes I wish I was a cyclopse......I'm ready to drop the right eye LMMFAO
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Sean
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Nathan
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #22 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 3:08pm » |
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my point exctally kirk! were stuck in the middle of something and when its finishedthose with clusters will have finally finished the evolution weither good or bad. (im sticking with good) has anyone ever just gone without meds? i have been on every med out there for ch and none work. some help, but none work completely. im wondering if we could manage to go without meds and actually live through the pain would that let the process complete itsself? like i said before...this is something the doctors dont understand so they just dump meds on it and hope it will go away. what if were not supposed to dump meds on it? your not supposed to pick at scabs either ya know? i simply think there is more to ch than what we are told. why would we just have this pain for no reason? it effects every race, gender and lifestyle, so....why? there has to be a reason. we dont all have the same genetic fuck up in our body, were not all drunks or addicts, there is no connection hbetween us BESIDES the pain.
anyway i babble to much. my question now is... has anyone ever gone without meds of any kind for an extended period of time and did you see or feel any change in your self (besides wanting to use johnys 9mm) lol! -----Nate
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floridian
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #23 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 7:54pm » |
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Quote:| has anyone ever gone without meds of any kind for an extended period of time and did you see or feel any change in your self |
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In my decade of CH, I have used triptans - one tablet. Oxygen - never. Other prescriptions - never. Magnesium, melatonin, feverfew, turmeric, tea - in the past three years, those might have turned it down somewhat but not a cure by any means. The only changes I have seen have been unpleasant. A twitching eye. Disturbed sleep. Irregular heartbeat. Hot flashes. Excruiciating pain.
Quote:| im wondering if we could manage to go without meds and actually live through the pain would that let the process complete itsself? |
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I have gone without meds. It hasn't polished this rough rock into a gemstone yet.
Clusterheads have:
Screwed up hypothalamus
Screwed up fat metabolism
Hi levels of inflammatory cytokines (TNF, IL-1)
Hi levels of IgE (antibodies associated with allergies)
Screwed up substance P, serotonin, glutamate, etc etc
I can see what you are driving at, but no, this is a DISEASE. Occasionally a disease has a silver lining. Most do not. Our lives would be better if the disorder were less severe, or not disordered at all. I would like to be normal and healthy, please.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2004, 8:04pm by floridian » |
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Charlie
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Re: clusters and human evolution
« Reply #24 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 8:27pm » |
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Quote:| I believe humans have unevolved, that we started in perfect health forever, then limited to a life span of 1000 years, then because of changes in the atmosphere we were limited to 125 years, and through lots of mutations we have become this disease ridden race which has only improved with recent successes in modern medicine. |
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It is simple really: We have it backwards. We should be born old and die young. Say we were born old--90 or so. We are pretty much a wreck and not doing all that well perceiving our surroundings. Steadily, we begin to regain our faculties as we reverse our physical age. Hearing, sight, motor functions begin to improve. Soon we are at the stage of wise oldsters. Middle age is quicker this way where we are at our intellectual peak, getting used to really good sex and noticing that we are beginning to look and feel pretty good. Soon we are at our best as young adults, horny and able to do something about it, physically attractive, tough and able to have fun. Younger still, we are sex-crazed sponges taking in everything and fun is the only objective. Pain is a distant memory. Childhood: We are now wildly educated major pains in the ass, not very adroit but getting healthier by the day with little or no worries. It was fun and now as infants, we have zero responsibilities or worries. Soon: back to the womb and our last recollection is that of an orgasm. 
Sign me up. 
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2004, 8:28pm by Charlie » |
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