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Topic: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic (Read 7022 times) |
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brain_cramps
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Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« on: Dec 29th, 2003, 1:39pm » |
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Cluster headache and lifestyle: remarks on a population of 374 male patients.
Manzoni GC
Headache Centre, University of Parma, Italy.
To investigate the relation between cluster headache (CH) and lifestyle, some lifestyle factors were considered in a population of 374 CH male patients consecutively referred to the same headache center, including 306 with episodic CH, 22 with chronic CH unremitting from onset, 20 with chronic CH evolved from episodic, and 26 with CH periodicity undetermined CH patients had jobs involving greater responsibilities and were more frequently self-employed than controls. In addition, their past medical histories often reported head injury, either with loss of consciousness (13.4%) or without loss of consciousness (23.5% of cases). As regards nonessential consumption habits, both cigarette-smoking and coffee and alcohol intake were more frequently reported in CH patients than in the general population, with a higher prevalence in chronic CH as opposed to episodic CH sufferers. In particular, smokers accounted for 78.9% of episodic CH patients and 87.8% of chronic CH patients--12.9% of episodic CH patients and 19.6% of chronic CH patients smoked over 30 cigarettes a day. Alcohol abuse was reported in 16.2% of episodic and 26.8% of chronic CH patients, while coffee abuse was reported in 6.9% of episodic and in 36.6% of chronic CH patients. Rather than pointing to a single lifestyle factor directly implicated in CH onset, my review suggests a common trend among CH patients to overindulge in certain living habits. |
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I noticed the above quote in another thread ("Clusters a symptom ? " ) and found the numbers kinda interesting.
<A> = Trait
<B> = percentage of Episodics with that trait
<C> = percentage of Chronics with that trait
<D> = increase in Chronics over Episodics
Anything jump out? (not just because its in bold  )
<A>
| <B>
| <C>
| <D>
| Trait
| Episodic
| Chronic
| Increase
| Smokers
| 78.9
| 87.8
| 11.28%
| Heavy Smokers
| 12.9
| 19.6
| 51.94%
| Alcohol
| 16.2
| 26.8
| 65.43%
| Caffeine
| 6.9
| 36.6
| 430.43%
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The percentage of chronics that drink A LOT of coffee is 5 times as high as the number in episodics.
Since I NEVER want to go chronic, I think I might quit drinking coffee after this pot.
grant
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2003, 1:43pm by brain_cramps » |
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CJohnson
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #1 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 1:49pm » |
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There are a couple of other numbers that jump out...
Here is something:
"Brain levels of 5-HT and 5-HIAA but not tryptophan decreased in 5 day caffeine injected rats injected with saline on the 6th day. Plasma total and free tryptophan were not altered in these rats. Caffeine-induced increases of brain tryptophan but not 5-HT and 5-HIAA were greater in 5 day caffeine than 5 day saline injected rats. The findings are discussed as repeated caffeine administration producing adaptive changes in the serotonergic neurons to decrease the conversion of tryptophan to 5-HT"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed &list_uids=7475912&dopt=Abstract
Any activity which compromises the serotonergic system could be trouble for a person who already has a predisposition for clusters.
PFDANs
-Curtis
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2003, 2:04pm by CJohnson » |
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ave
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #2 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 5:36pm » |
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I think I could do with a translation into people-squeak speak... please.
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Charlie
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #3 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 5:37pm » |
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I love this term 
I've drunk gallons of coffee every day since I was in my teens way back during the Wars of Succession. I drink the same now as when my CH disappeared in 1991. When they began in 1969 I drank coffee, and was a heavy smoker. I quit smoking 11 years before my 12 year remission. I give up trying to find a connection.
Ineresting post though. Every little bit you know....
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2003, 5:38pm by Charlie » |
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don
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #4 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 5:52pm » |
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Another speaker at the Cluster Club in Rome.
Spoke with him briefly over at the dessert and coffee table during the break. Only briefly though, I was headed out for a smoke.
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Roxy
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #5 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 8:38pm » |
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Like Charlie says....every little bit you know....
I don't do much caffeine, just two cups of coffee in the morning. For some reason, don't think that cutting out my coffee will change anything.
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #6 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 8:46pm » |
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Keep an open mind folks.
The statistics are rather frightening...have to remember, no one really knows what causes these damn headaches yet!
We have to keep searching.
Thanks Grant!
Donna D.
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #7 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 9:31pm » |
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Heading out the door for Starbucks for some espresso.
LindaH
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #8 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 9:35pm » |
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Smoking, drinking, coffee and CH - which is cause and which is effect?
Frank
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #9 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 10:44pm » |
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Thanks Grant, cool post.
Just to play devils advocate though(if you don't mind)....
I think most of us agree that suffering from cluster headaches has introduced,to some degree, a level of stress and anxiety into our lives that would not be there otherwise. If we had it before,then I believe clusters have up'ed the anti. Chronics more so than eposodics.
Now with that theory, It would be interesting to get the results from surveying 374 men who suffer from something else that would cause stress/anxiety. I would bet that a large percentage of those men might drink too much coffee,smoke alot, find themselves drunk more often than they would care to admit........
..just a thought....
..Mark..
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ClusterChuck
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #10 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 11:23pm » |
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on Dec 29th, 2003, 8:38pm, Roxy wrote:| I don't do much caffeine, just two cups of coffee |
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My doctor told me to cut down to one or two cups a day .. So naturally I follow his instructions .. I am usually only one cup a day now .. BUT, he did not say that I could not refill that cup .. So I refil my ONE CUP about 10 to 20 times a day... But it is still just one cup!
Chuck
EDIT: BTW, I am chronic ...
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| « Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2003, 11:23pm by ClusterChuck » |
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #11 on: Dec 29th, 2003, 11:47pm » |
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I laid off the caffiene for an extended period...quit smoking...ate better food...tried to maintain a 'schedule'... BUT, none of that had any effect on my headaches. They still hit me multiple times everyday.
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #12 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 1:13am » |
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Frank W......
A Swede. We have another one here? Welcome to the fold. 
You haven't had Christmas until you've had Glogg. Born over here but a Swede on both sides of my oddball family. 
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2003, 1:15am by Charlie » |
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #13 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 2:07am » |
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I usually drink about 2 cups of coffee a day when not in cycle.
Once a cycle starts, I double, if not triple, the caffeine intake. It is the only med that eases the pain after a CH attack. The doc also prescribes me Norgesic Forte which includes caffeine.
PS. I've went through cycles with NO COFFEE and it didn't make any difference. Last cycle only lasted 7 weeks and drank tons of the stuff. No correlation here for me. The only depression is having clusters.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:14am by YOSIMITE » |
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #14 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 8:49am » |
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For completion sake, I will post Curtis' quote from Pubmed, but this time, the whole abstract, for some reason a few key words were dropped from his post, like depression from caffeine withdrawal..... 
24h withdrawal following repeated administration of caffeine attenuates brain serotonin but not tryptophan in rat brain: implications for caffeine-induced depression.
Haleem DJ, Yasmeen A, Haleem MA, Zafar A.
Department of Biochemistry, University of Karachi, Pakistan.
Caffeine injected at doses of 20, 40 and 80 mg/kg increased brain levels of tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5-HIAA) in rat brain. In view of a possible role of 5-HT in caffeine-induced depression the effects of repeated administration of high doses of caffeine on brain 5-HT metabolism are investigated in rats. Caffeine was injected at doses of 80 mg/kg daily for five days. Control animals were injected with saline daily for five days. On the 6th day caffeine (80 mg/kg) injected to 5 day saline injected rats increased brain levels of tryptophan, 5-HT and 5-HIAA. Plasma total tryptophan levels were not affected and free tryptophan increased. Brain levels of 5-HT and 5-HIAA but not tryptophan decreased in 5 day caffeine injected rats injected with saline on the 6th day. Plasma total and free tryptophan were not altered in these rats. Caffeine-induced increases of brain tryptophan but not 5-HT and 5-HIAA were greater in 5 day caffeine than 5 day saline injected rats. The findings are discussed as repeated caffeine administration producing adaptive changes in the serotonergic neurons to decrease the conversion of tryptophan to 5-HT and this may precipitate depression particularly in conditions of caffeine withdrawal.
PMID: 7475912 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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thomas
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #15 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:04am » |
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mmmmmmmmm...... coffee and cigarettes....mmmmm
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Brian_Y
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #16 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:29am » |
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| « Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:29am by Brian_Y » |
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #17 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:31am » |
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Hi Charlie
Just a Kiwi living in Sweden for a long time - no Glogg this year though - a trigger that is. Just lots of Swedish grade coffee - stuff that sets your heart rate to a steady hum till you get used to it.
Frank
BTW Thomas - the only ingredients anybody remembers for the magic salad I once mentioned were Chrysanthemum leaves and maybe wild mushrooms - I know no more.
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BruceD
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #18 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 11:03am » |
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Caffeine certainly doesn't seem to have any bearing on my CH (except high intake seems to lessen individual HAs). I've gone for long periods 3-4 years without any caffeine and CHs still hit. Same thing goes when I get back on the caffeine train. The only thing that I've found is that by slamming 24+ oz of Mtn Dew at the slightest hint of a shadow I can sometimes lesson the impending pain. I really don't know if it's the caffeine, or the WWW type of thing, but that's my only experience with caffeine having any effect on my CH. (BTW, I'm episodic)
Take care
BruceD
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #19 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 11:25am » |
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Coffee helped to abort my headaches back when i had them before I was on melatonin. I have a wonderful Italian superautomatic espresso machine at home: press a button and a half minute later an espresso comes out.
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brain_cramps
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #20 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 12:41pm » |
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If you reread my post, you'll notice that i didn't say i thought caffeine was the reason; only that the statistics were interesting.
and that i MIGHT quit ----- ya think a pot is too much before lunch?
BTW - 374 MALE patients --- everybody knows that females don't get CH! 
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| « Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2003, 12:44pm by brain_cramps » |
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #21 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 12:57pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2003, 10:04am, thomas wrote:| mmmmmmmmm...... coffee and cigarettes....mmmmm |
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I agree !!!
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episodic since 1969........damn
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #22 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 7:33pm » |
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Yeah I don't get CH's I'm just hanging out here hoping to get a date. 
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #23 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 7:49pm » |
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I must be an exception to the norm.....Episodic and drink 2 million cups a day, so many in fact that I piss cement, and it STILL hurts less than CH.
Ramon
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Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
« Reply #24 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 7:55pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2003, 7:33pm, Jayne wrote:| Yeah I don't get CH's I'm just hanging out here hoping to get a date. |
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Nice to meet you jayne, I can be there in two hours
...................................jonny
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