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dellp
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FYI for Ueli and others
« on: Jun 8th, 2003, 9:27am » |
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Hey Ueli,
I was just searching for a post that has seemed to vanish and came across one that you made concerning Acupuncture and chiropractic. I understand what you are saying and feel a need to reply. This is not out of anger and I’m not calling you ignorant - just misinformed.
First, I am a retired chiropractor. When I was in school, 1974, I was told about one written statement in the AMA list of objectives, to ‘contain and eliminate chiropractic.’ The short story is that there was a 12-year court battle where 10 chiropractors sued the AMA and 24 (I think) other national groups for discrimination of practice. 14 settled out of court and the AMA was forced to change its’ policies as were the others (national radiological, hospital, and other groups.) Final judgement was handed down by the Supreme Court. There was no monetary settlement as no money was sought.
Virtually all chiropractic colleges are approved by the federal government; the GI Bill pays for education at these schools and all states have varying degrees of mandated insurance coverage for chiropractic care.
I could tell you some amazing stories of my clinical experiences, but I won’t bore you unless you ask.
As far as Acupuncture, I am only familiar with the Maryland laws of 10 years ago, but an individual needed about 4000 hours education at certified institutions to become a certified Acupuncturist. The scary part is that MD’s (and in some states chiropractors) can be certified with only 100 hours additional education.
Successful treatment does NOT require you believe it will work. The location of the points is EXTREMELY specific - miss the point by 1/8” or less and you might as well not treat it at all. One teaching technique used is a large wooden doll marked with the 365 major points then covered with wax. The student must needle the point exactly or fail the test.
For 25 years acupuncture has successfully aborted my cycles in three weeks and usually less. Eight different practitioners from four different schools and only one ‘style’ has been successful. There are no graduates from either of the 2 schools that teach this specific technique in the state of Texas; eight weeks ago I entered my first cycle since moving to Texas and have been managing with O2 and other non-medical approaches and they are still coming. No, I do not feel as though they have becom chronic, just running a normal course.
There is no silver bullet for anything (except maybe werewolves!) When in practice I would refer to other chiropractors using different techniques than I did and there was rapid success. I have been to acupuncturists that made my ch worse. The western medical approach does not have all the answers either - just take a look around this site for solid evidence of that.
All I ask is that you ease up on those reporting success with non-medical treatment and allow people the option to try different things. Just because you don’t believe in something or it didn’t work for you or me doesn’t mean it won’t work for someone else.
Wishing PFDAN for all,
Dell
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don
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #1 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 10:12am » |
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Quote:| The location of the points is EXTREMELY specific - miss the point by 1/8” or less and you might as well not treat it at all. |
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So my question would be this..........
How does the practioner know wheter or not he is, or isn't, within the 1/8" target point. If I were to recieve 10 treatments and he was off during 8 of those treatments then realistically I have recieved only 2 treatments.
Hypothetically; It takes 10 treatments to have an affect on my CH. * Of those treatments 8 have been useless, but I dont know that. My conclusion would naturally be that accupuncture did not work.
The practitioner I used informed me that the attacks would get worse during the treatment prior to getting better. He was half right. I could have more affectively treated the pain at "StarBucks" for a whole lot less money.
Do I get a refund on the 8 useless treatments? Doubt it!
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| « Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2003, 10:20am by don » |
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cbolony
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #2 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 10:16am » |
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Quote:| If I were to recieve 10 treatments and he was off during 8 of those treatments then realistically I have recieved only 2 treatments. |
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Do i get my money back ;D ;D
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dellp
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #3 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 12:04pm » |
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[/b] "How does the practioner know wheter or not he is, or isn't, within the 1/8" target point. If I were to recieve 10 treatments and he was off during 8 of those treatments then realistically I have recieved only 2 treatments." [b]
First I'll tell you I was qualified to certify in 26 states when I graduated so this is from experience as well as talking to the providers:
There is a certain feel of the needle going into the point. (I know I am leaving myself wide open on this one, but) something like when baking, the dough has a certain feel when it is ready. Also, whichever diagnostic procedure was used to find the energy imbalance should be used again, either immediately after insertion or after needle removal, or both, to verify change has indeed happened.
[/b]"Hypothetically; It takes 10 treatments to have an affect on my CH. * Of those treatments 8 have been useless, but I dont know that. My conclusion would naturally be that accupuncture did not work." [b]
An ethical practitioner would make corrections along the way for errors made (and believe when I say that as a rookie, you do make mistakes.) If the post-treatment exam does not show improvement, you should be told the results and expectations. On the other hand when significant change is noted that should be reported also.
In 16 years of private practice as a chiropractor, every patient was told their condition may get a little worse after the treatment - and it did happen in about a quarter of the cases. Sometimes for a few minutes, hours or even a day or two (rarely two.) It does happen and this disclaimer needs to be given. The five Acupuncturists who successfully treated my CH gave me this warning even though it never happened.
If you didn't see my original post on my experience, you should check it out. I put it out hoping to help at least one CHer who has tried before and might try again or someone who might want to try it for the first time.
I tried to get responses to see if there is any corelation to 'style' of treatment to success rate and there hasn't been a single response. So be it. I'm only trying to help. 
Oh, yeah. Ya' don't get yer money back! 
Dell
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ave
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #4 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 12:57pm » |
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Yes, I was wondering when this would hit the board, when I saw your first post.
I also wondered why, as a chiropractor, you did not call on a colleague to mitigate/cure your pain.
I deduced that you knew from your long experience that chiropractice would not help against clusters.
That, I must say, is a refreshing point of view from one who has been in the business himself.
Your approach is a great deal different from folks who more or less command us to go see a chiro, and grow abusive when we say it does not work. (The posts of Subluxationskill at the medical message board are a good (or do I mean unpleasant?) recent example.)
On the whole I am with the people who request no more and no less than scienticific evidence; something that one can do again and again and again, with the same result.
If the theory on which a treatment (any treatment) is based is non-proveable, than results can not be anything other than anecdotic.
And as long as we do not have the whole, proven, unshakeable picture of the why and how of clusters, you can say what you like about them - and most people regrettably DO.
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dellp
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #5 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 2:50pm » |
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Thanks for the support ave.
As a matter of fact I tried several different approaches to chiropractic and none of it worked for me.
What is really bothering me is that there seems to be a fair number CHers that would like to avoid taking the meds route and not one has said anything about any of my posts.
So it goes.
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The hell with 'love' everybody - how 'bout just respect for everybody
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jonny
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #6 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 3:19pm » |
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Fucking Chiro dont work for CH!
Christ!!!, 3 times a week for 6 months and it did shit for my CH.
Get real!!!!
........................jonny
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cathy
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #7 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 3:23pm » |
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on Jun 8th, 2003, 9:27am, dellp wrote:All I ask is that you ease up on those reporting success with non-medical treatment and allow people the option to try different things. Just because you don’t believe in something or it didn’t work for you or me doesn’t mean it won’t work for someone else.
Wishing PFDAN for all,
Dell
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I think what you asked got lost in your post...
Cathy 
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jonny
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #8 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 3:35pm » |
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Just because something worked for one person dont mean it will work for even one more, posting here you should take into consideration that not all here have enough cash to run to the nearest Chiro.
People here will do anything to kill the pain and thats not limited to draining the bank account.
.....................................jonny
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| « Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2003, 3:36pm by jonny » |
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don
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #9 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 6:03pm » |
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Quote:| There is a certain feel of the needle going into the point. (I know I am leaving myself wide open on this one, |
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I dont see you as leaving yourself wide open. Any master craftsman will tell you that they have a "feel" for what they do. The same is probably true for a qualified and experianced practioner of acupuncture.
One of the problems with acupunture is the cost involved in finding that master craftsman. It is difficult to find an affective neuro as well but at least insurance will cover a part of that trial and error search.
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dellp
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #10 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 8:50pm » |
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jonny,
I never said chiropractic worked for me or anyone else I know. There was a change of subject - we are talking acupuncture.
cathy,
Thanks for noticing!
don,
Your answer is in two parts. Second first, some, yes SOME insurance does cover acupuncture. Check your benefits package given by the ins. co. or call and ask.
First part second. I have been trying to get people to ask their acupuncturist what technique was used and where they went to school so I (we) might see if there is any consistency to the successful treatments.
In my original post I detailed my experience with Traditional Acupuncture School (now Tai Acupuncture Institute) grads and non grads.
Think I should re-post in the 'General' area in an abbreviated form? Guess I do get a little wordy at times.
Thanks to all for the interest.
PFDAN to all.
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The hell with 'love' everybody - how 'bout just respect for everybody
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don
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #11 on: Jun 8th, 2003, 10:09pm » |
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Why NOT post in the general area?
I cant help you much with my experiance, It was about 20 years ago, but who knows? you might be on to something. It's possible, probable, that one form of accupuncture will be more beneficial than another for CH. Lets find out.
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Charlie
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #12 on: Jun 9th, 2003, 12:00am » |
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There is no subsititute for a qualified MD.
Too many people who have a fear of anything clinical, try to avoid it with chiropractors.
Many iffy things are approved, sanctioned, funded and even well thought of by many. That doesn't make them true. Astrology is a prime example. The federal government has wasted millions funding psychic research of all kinds too. Nonsense is indeed popular.
I am glad you have had some kind of result however. I'd have painted myself blue and chewed cactus if it had worked.
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2003, 12:07am by Charlie » |
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don
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #13 on: Jun 9th, 2003, 6:24am » |
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Quote:| There is no subsititute for a qualified MD. |
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I agree 100% with you Charlie( scared yet?).
All the other stuff should be complimentary treatments IMHO.
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Callico
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #14 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 12:48am » |
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Dell,
I for one appreciate your approach to the issue of non traditional treatments. I am not a proponant of accupuncture as I am basically ignorant of it. I have known of some who have used it as anesthesia and have found it to be successful, but more who have found it worthless. In the mind? I don't know. I would be interested in any data you can give other than just anecdotal reference. This is not being critical. I would seriously like to find some definative information that is not just opinion for or against. Then I can make up my own mind. I do appreciate your approach of not trying to sell your business as the previously mentioned "subluxationskill".
I am a strong believer in Chiropractic. Were it not for an honest chiropractor who worked on my back for over two years I would probably be unable to walk. Following a serious truck accident my insurance co wanted me to have back surgery and referred me to their pet neurosurgeon. He said I would never lift over 25lbs again after surgery and had the chance of never walking.
However, Chiropractic does nothing for CH as you have expressed. The key is having an honest Dr. who will discuss ALL options with both pros and cons of each.
jc
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dellp
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #15 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 9:34am » |
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on Jun 9th, 2003, 12:00am, Charlie wrote:There is no subsititute for a qualified MD.
Too many people who have a fear of anything clinical, try to avoid it with chiropractors.
Many iffy things are approved, sanctioned, funded and even well thought of by many. That doesn't make them true. Astrology is a prime example. The federal government has wasted millions funding psychic research of all kinds too. Nonsense is indeed popular.
I am glad you have had some kind of result however. I'd have painted myself blue and chewed cactus if it had worked.
Charlie
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You want qualified? Go to any chiropractic college on the face of the earth by way of the internet, and check out the curriculum and I think you will be very surprised.
Years ago I had information comparing the typical education of MD’s (general practitioner) vs. chiropractic. If my memory serves me, and in this instance I think it does, Chiropractors received more training than MD’s in anatomy, physiology, neurology, orthopedics, orthopedic diagnosis and several other areas. Additional areas of study in the chiropractic education include: pharmacology, pediatrics, geriatrics, microbiology, histology, oncology and lots more.
During the AMA’s ‘reign of terror’ against the chiropractic profession there were regular town meetings where dis-information was spread about chiropractic creating prejudices that are still present - as witnessed here.
In the early stages of the lawsuit I mentioned earlier, some medical advocacy group hit the newspaper with headlines about “14 people die as a direct result of chiropractic manipulations.” Buried in the article was the fact that this was over a 10 year period. The group quickly shut up and had no reply to the disclosure that during that same 10 year period there was an AVERAGE of 150,000 deaths as a direct result of improper medical care EVERY YEAR ! That’s 14 vs. 1.5 MILLION - which do YOU, think is safer?
You probaably won’t believe this, but I had many patients coming in on a seasonal basis for (successful, non-drug) treatment of severe allergy; a woman with a stiff neck and told of 12 years of stomach problems and no success with medical treatment - 5 minutes of questioning revealed she was allergic to eggs! A four and a half year old boy with a 4 year history of ear infections including 2 surgeries had total relief with one month of treatment - his medical doctor could not explain why it stopped, mom wasn’t ready to reveal it was chiropractic. A woman scheduled for surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome cancelled her surgery after 2 weeks of treatment - no, this is not a common cause of CTS but a thorough orthopedic exam would have, and did reveal the truth.
A Time magazine article said it accurately, “when you have a hammer in your hand everything looks like a nail and the only tools medical doctors have are drugs and surgery.” Now don’t get me wrong - drugs and surgery are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in the war against death and disease. There are times when nothing else will do. I’ve been under the knife more times than I want to think about - it even saved my life and the life of my brother, but there are times when other treatment are more appropriate.
THERE ARE NO SILVER BULLETS OUT THERE! As soon as any health care provider says they can cure whatever ails you, it is time to turn around and look elsewhere for treatment.
jc
Thanks for the support and glad you found a good chiro. Just like any other profession there are good and bad practitioners and unfortunately we hear more about the bad than we do the good.
Instead of telling how acupuncture (acpt) works right now, I will be setting up something to try to correlate successful acpt results with styles of treatment. I will get to your request later.
PFDAN to ALL
Dell
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echo
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #16 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 9:41am » |
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I have a great MD, Neuro and Chiro. Each is used for specific needs.
It would be great if the MD and Chiro were one in the same.
Only the neuro has helped my CH.
My .02 -- I'll STFU now.
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Ueli
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #17 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 8:09pm » |
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Hey Dell,
What is this fucking accusation that I were misinformed, and then you continue to inform me at length of some well know facts: That the lobby of scam artists is so powerful that it suckered legislators into giving them some legal status and endowing them with tax dollars. You write: I understand what you are saying and feel a need to reply. So where are your replies? I didn't see them. So, would you please help me getting out of the deep pit of misinformation and go back to my post Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine and explain sentence by sentence where and why I am misinformed.
One of your colleagues called me an allopathic idiot, which is a title of honor when it comes from a snake oil pedlar. Allopathy is medical practice which aims to combat disease by the use of remedies which produce effects. ;D
Modern medicine knows of more than a dozen of neuro transmitters, many of them involved in CH. Please enlighten me how the simplistic concept of balancing jin and yang can deal with such a complicated system, one that varies throughout the day.
The fact that there are four different schools of acupuncture indicates that at least 3 quarters must be wrong. That the needle point is a matter of hit and miss by a distance of 1/8 inch is another indication of bogus art: the misses are swept under the carpet and the occasional 'hit' (that fortuitously concurs with natural healing or the kicking in of 'western' medication) is exaggerated into a proof of the effectiveness of the ancient scam.
Remember, One swallow doesn't make a summer, so inform me where do I find the results of sound, double blind studies on the effectiveness of any acupuncture or chiropractic treatment. Such studies are the norm for 'western medicine' treatments. If you cannot show similar results for the 'alternative' treatments, we must assume that there is something foul in the state of Denmark.
You write: The western medical approach does not have all the answers either - just take a look around this site for solid evidence of that.
Huh? I'm in the 5th year on this MB, and from more than 210'000 posts I've learned:
Almost everyone trying Imitrex injections has relieve within <10 minutes, not 3 weeks.
Prednisone brings down CH within a day, not 3 weeks.
Verapamil, at the right dosis, dampens the beast in 1 week, not 3.
What have you to show for your alternative treatments?
Your own case, for 25 years the cycle aborted within 3 weeks by needlework. But how do we know if you are not one of the lucky guys with a very short cycle, that ended naturally within the 3 week of needle treatment? Have you ever tried out how long a cycle lasts without chinese hanky panky?
I remember one guy who shouted hurray one week after acupuncture, we don't know if it was lasting or not. But many said that the chinese approach was simply a waste of money and prolonged the suffering.
No reply yet on your call on successful schools.
But maybe you can find in the archive some more testimonials for your approach. Since for you post 'seem to vanish' my tutorial on using the search engine might help you: HTSTFATLORFTSE, AHTBAEIIU
First I'll tell you I was qualified to certify in 26 states when I graduated so this is from experience as well as talking to the providers. Wow! In 26 states there are many clusterheads to find. Please tell us how many you have cured and how many got at least temporal relieve. We are awaiting eagerly your numbers!
You write: All I ask is that you ease up on those reporting success with non-medical treatment and allow people the option to try different things. Sorry, I can't comply. My objective is that every clusterhead gets relieve from pain as soon as possible. That demands that I warn everybody from unsound bogus 'alternative treatment' that only brings money for the scam artist and prolonged, untreated pain for the clusterhead. Remember, I'm an allopathic idiot, I don't believe in miracles as sold by snake oil salespeople.
PFNADs
Ueli
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dellp
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #18 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 10:05pm » |
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Hey Ueli,
Nice to meet you, too. 
If you can honestly tell me that when I produce a list of double blind studies performed by western medicine proving the effectiveness of both chiropractic and acupuncture, you will admit it is real and not some communist plot, I will do it. I've got too much going on for me right now to waste time if you are going to ignore the proof you request.
And I'll tell you what I am NOT going to do:
I am not going to get into a name calling contest with you - I can tell you are way too practiced for me.
I am not going to try to pry open that closed clamshell of a mind you have - it was probably welded and rusted shut years ago.
So let me know now whether you are really going to listen and consider the possibilities or
if you will just stand your ground and be beligerent.
PFDAN to all,
Dell
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Mikey
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #19 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:04pm » |
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Hmmmmmm as far as acupunture, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, their QUACKS.........Don't waste your time or hard earned money. That's the way i feel.......
Mikey, 
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #20 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:10pm » |
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I tried it about 12 yrs ago. After the first 3 or 4 days, the only thing i was relieved of was a couple hundred dollars.
grant
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Ueli
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #21 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:11pm » |
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Dell,
I asked you to point out where in your opinion I am misinformed.
I asked some other concrete questions.
But you don't give any answers, all we hear from you is warm air, worthy of any wellness web site.
Since you don't write one sentence to enlighten the uninitiated we must conclude that your verbosity is just some sort of oral diarrhea, the sort of hogwash we are used from coral calcium pedlars.
Please stop bothering the board with your outpourings.
STFU if you don't have some tangible facts to show.
Thank you
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Mikey
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #22 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:34pm » |
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DITTO UELI
Mikey
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #23 on: Jun 11th, 2003, 12:31am » |
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well, dellp.... "now chew dunnit, Loosie...."
I kinda thought you were pretty reasonable, and you've made *some* good post here.... but when ya attack Ueli, ya better have read every damn word he's posted.... you'll learn something ...... I have read every damn word I could find on this board that he's written and there is not a thing he's researched that I can find fault with....
sorry bud, but ya stepped innit with this:
Quote:| I am not going to try to pry open that closed clamshell of a mind you have - it was probably welded and rusted shut years ago. |
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Produce the evidence.... Quote:| If you can honestly tell me that when I produce a list of double blind studies performed by western medicine proving the effectiveness of both chiropractic and acupuncture, you will admit it is real and not some communist plot, I will do it. I've got too much going on for me right now to waste time if you are going to ignore the proof you request. |
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I (for one) won't ignore it..... that's a promise.
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Mantra: This will NOT kill me...This will not KILL me... This will not kill ME...
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paul_b
New Board Old Timer
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 371
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Re: FYI for Ueli and others
« Reply #24 on: Jun 11th, 2003, 12:38am » |
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Let us not forget that the mind and body are one. It is our CH brain that is out of whack and whatever works to get each of our hypothalamus to function correctly is all I ask for. Let our search continue.
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