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Topic: Am I Alone? (Read 974 times) |
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paul_b
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Am I Alone?
« on: Mar 16th, 2003, 12:08pm » |
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I am 60 yrs. old, well educated and will probably be able to handle the financial costs of the future. I am open minded, a good listener, and am able to understand other's perspectives on issues. My CH's have taken a vacation; I should be happy. Yet here I am writing about the anxiety I feel about our nation going to war. I just don't get it. Yes, Hussein is bad. Yes, action must be taken reguarding terrorism. Yes, our soldiers require our support. Yes, we will defeat Iraq. After all is said and done what will we have achieved? Made the US safer from terrorism? Made the 3 distinctly different regions of Iraq suddenly decide to live in harmony? Am I alone in seeing our "go it alone" war as an action not likely to see positive consequences? SHIT I feel helpless. I just wish we would wait. What's the harm? Am I alone?
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paul_b
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 12:36pm » |
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Addendum: Writing thoughts down helps. Simply put, I do not see the up side of going to war at this time.
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kim
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #2 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 3:37pm » |
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No, you are not alone. Political agendas are at work and we are all drawn in  Can't be helped....
I can only tell you that not one human individual actually wishes for war. Not us as a people and most certainly not one government official....We are all in a quagmire. This is what I so wish could somehow unite us ALL. It will become a media circus and a conflict of "the ignorance of the mob" .........
I wish you peace. I'm searching for that myself nowadays....not simple by any means....
I do know that it is a universal paradox - standing up for what is right and facing opposition...........and i'm not going to lose sight of that..........! It's just too important.
Well wishes, Kimmer 
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jonny
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Let the bodies hit the floor!!!!!
Let the bodies hit the floor!!!!!
Let the bodies hit the floor!!!!!
Kill or be killed!!!!!
...................................jonny
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kim
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #4 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 4:14pm » |
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If my body - or that of my offspring - should hit hit the floor in some sudden disclamer of life otherwise lived, I shall offer up my grief, pain and uncertainty....in the blind hope that the truth will endure after the earth is dug.If I were to offer up the lifetime of MY BOY...........then he and I could live (maybe) together in blind insignificance -- and may still today be silenced forever........while a monster roamed and roamed.............
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fubar
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #5 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 5:27pm » |
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You are not alone, obviously. Many of us want answers we will never get. We all want to feel rightous before we go exterminating lives. We want it spelled out in black and white. Whether we want this for our own comfort, or for the benefit of the critical eye of the rest of the world, it doesn't matter. Fact is, we aren't going to get the 'smoking gun' evidence. We aren't going to find Saddam Insane's stockpile of weapons. He knows it, and more importantly, we know it. Hell, this guy has had 12 years to hide this stuff. 12 years under UN resolutions that forbade any activity of the sort. 12 years of Saddam ordering the shoot-down of any aircraft, in a region that has been declared (by the UN) a no-fly zone. 12 years of this guy blatently thumbing his nose at the world and everybody has completely forgotten that this is a DEFEATED ruler. He is under TERMS OF SURRENDER... RIGHT NOW. Jesus, I just don't understand how people can forget that this guy was defeated in a war, and agreed to these terms as a condition to stay in power. Now, he has NEVER complied with these terms, yet he remains in power. This is black and white enough for me.... he needs to go. Forget the terrorism bullcrap, forget the WMD bullcrap, the cerimonial inspections which will never find squat, forget all that and you still have the fact that he is in violation of the terms of his surrender. Enough said. The world refuses to act, we are acting now because he has proven already what his intent is, and we will pay the ultimate price if we do not stop him.
Let me point out one more thing. Hitler was a madman. We can all see that clearly because we have the advantage of hindsight. Hitler was also a genius. That doesn't mean he wasn't an evil, insane person. His genius lay in the ability to manipulate the social mind and context of his actions. By manipulating world opinion, and stoking the patriotic ferver of his own country, he was able to lead people to do the unthinkable.
Now, I'm not saying Saddam is anything as bad as Hitler (I'm not saying he not either). But, his ability to manipulate world opinion is nothing short of amazing. He has managed to virtually destroy the credibility and relevence of the UN by exploding it from within. He is exacting an enomous toll on the US economy, as he promised he would, by playing this artful game of brinksmanship. (We have no idea what it's costing to be ready for war, the only effective threat that Saddam has ever responded to). He has divided world opinion and managed to come off as Iraq, the oppressed. Oh my God, make it stop.
Anything the United States does here will be rejected by the world. Do nothing, and we get the blame next time Saddam does anything because we obviously knew something we didn't tell the world. Do something now, and we begin a new era of rightous pre-emptive strikes. There will be great repercussions if we start a war, UN supported or not. I am convinced there will be bigger repercussions if we don't.
I say attack now. The soooner we start, the sooner we can bring our boys home.
-Fubar
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"He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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kim
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #6 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 5:57pm » |
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Thanks Fu, you say it most factual (LOL!) ole Kimmer get mucked up (too emotional...)
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WendyHowe
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Don't think you'll have long to wait. If our news tonight is correct, looks like war will be declared by the USA, Uk and Spain without the UN within 48 hours. The majority of our population is now against it but Tony Blair is forging ahead. I'm not sure where I stand any more. But I'm definitely frightened.
Have just been watching a terrifying documentary here that says the UK is utterly and completely unprepared for almost any major terrorist attack on us. (e.g. gas or biological)
I have asked my husband to avoid London (we live 30 miles away from it)- talk about paranoia setting in already!
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Charlie
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #8 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 6:44pm » |
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You're not alone Paul. I don't feel helpless though, just sorry that anyone has to die to squash this bug. So many people can’t wait for the fun to start. Of course Saddam has just enough smarts to know that he can’t do anything with us running around the desert and while inspectors are drinking tea in the hotel. Hey, wait a minute! There’s an idea. Keep the status quo and no one on our side has to die and it won’t drain world treasuries. Whew....
I better write Bush right away. He listens so well. .
Charlie
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kim
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #9 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 7:05pm » |
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Here's yur chance!!! Name names -!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You have consistently named names (minus any hard informarion) regarding you feelings about the current administration, let's hear what ya got to say! Put FACTS behind the insults - we are listening!  GOP - Blah, blah, BLAH, dUBYA,ETC..........  c'MON, surprise us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jarvis
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #10 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 7:48pm » |
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Paul your not alone. The whole world is standing with you watching and waiting. I just wish for something to happen one way or the other. War or no war, there are positives and negatives both ways. I only hope that those professionals in the know have a way out when the proper time comes. I currently have 1 nephew in Kuwait, 1 brother in Qatar, 3 coworkers somewhere in the mideast, 1 nephew on the way to Korea, 1 good friend somewhere unknown, 1 son wanting to enlist and a whole family on edge. Godspeed to all and the belief that wisdom wil prevail and the military is all that they can be. Above all I wish for peace. ....mj..
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Charlie
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #11 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 7:49pm » |
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What are you talking about? You want a list of adminstration members who I think are responsible for going too fast? What?
So far I've seen nothing of substance other than blame everyone but Bush and the standard neo-conservative rants in your posts.
Don't blame Clinton, by the way. That's getting tiresome. George Bush the First is the one who got us in this mess. He didn't finish the job and let this murderer stay in power. Clinton had nothing to do with it.
Charlie
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Cerberus
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #12 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 7:58pm » |
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I'm with Fubar on this one......
glad yer head is ok though Lord knows I'd be willing to trade a small middle- eastern nation for PF time when in cycle too. Take my Iraq....please! ;D
Ramon
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I would rather face the end with terror than terror without end. - (Deitrich Sawatsky 194?)
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jonny
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on Mar 16th, 2003, 7:49pm, Charlie wrote:
George Bush the First is the one who got us in this He didn't finish the job and let this murderer stay in power. Clinton had nothing to do with it.
Charlie |
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UN mandate said get Sadam out of Kuwait, not kill Sadam.
Get it right or shut the fuck up, Charlie!!!!
......................................jonny
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Mark C
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #14 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 10:21pm » |
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Jonny is correct.
General Sir Peter de la Billière, commander of the British Forces, noted soon after the action:
"Our United Nations mandate flowing from Resolution 678, authorised us to use all necessary means to eject the Iraqis from Kuwait. We did not have a mandate to invade Iraq, or take the country over, and if we had tried to do that, our Arab allies would certainly not have taken a favourable view. Even our limited incursions into Iraqi territory had made some of them uneasy.' (Daily Telegraph [London] 5-13 May 1991.)
PFDAN's
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Charlie
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #15 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 10:55pm » |
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You are not telling me anything I don't know. I'm well aware that it was a UN mandate and we had lots of company.
Funny how the UN works for you when you need it in an argument and is worthless when it isn't in 100% agreement with you.
Still, think how easy it would have been. I think we wouldn't have had much complaining if we went in at the time. There was a momentum that could easily have been exploited. It was a mistake and I'd have no trouble betting that many of those thinkers are now serving as advisors to George Bush, in one capacity or another.
It's not a black and white world, no matter how much we would like it to be, Jonny. Nuance is what keeps us from blowing ourselves off the map.
Charlie
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Ted
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #16 on: Mar 16th, 2003, 11:23pm » |
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on Mar 16th, 2003, 10:55pm, Charlie wrote:Funny how the UN works for you when you need it in an argument and is worthless when it isn't in 100% agreement with you.
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And I was just coming here to point that out, Charlie.
Are you saying, jonny, it's now legitimate not to invade Iraq because there is no UN mandate?
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ken_b
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #17 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 1:45am » |
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He has had 12 year's!!!!! won't to give him 12 more???
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Kcir
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Paul,
Somethings are worth fighting for! It won't make much differance for you or me how this turns out but, I pray that
my children and grandchildren will have the freedoms and
opportunities we have had.
Glad to hear your PF.
Rick T
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2late
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #19 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 5:42pm » |
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i've been blamed around her for blaming clinton for everything, i really blame him for "nothing" 8 years of scandals & bullshit. now is the time to do this, the world will come around once we find all the shit he's been hidin' nobody want's war but sometimes it has to be. we'll be safer without this meathead, his weapon's programs & his wealth supporting terrorism. ..........Jack
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jonny
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on Mar 16th, 2003, 11:23pm, Ted wrote:
Are you saying, jonny, it's now legitimate not to invade Iraq because there is no UN mandate? |
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Ahhhh, but there is a mandate and it goes back 12 years, we signed a truce with Sadam back then and he was suppose to keep his end of the truce, as far as im concerned he didnt and now the war that never ended will crank back up.
...............................jonny
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Bob P
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #21 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 6:08pm » |
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The way I see it, now that the Brits have withdrawn the resolution and no vote was taken, we fall back to the November resolution, passed unanimously, which said to disarm or face severe consequences.
We'll know in a little over an hour from now.
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Roxy
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #22 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 6:22pm » |
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on Mar 16th, 2003, 12:08pm, paul_b wrote:| After all is said and done what will we have achieved? |
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Some of the achievements have already started. The dow is on it's fourth day of climbing....Wall Street always likes a good war.
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Ree
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #23 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 7:27pm » |
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We know its gonna happen. Some want it some dont. WE are all from the same country and should stick together. I didnt write that prayer post to get us going on war AGAIN... Our kids are sitting ducks over there right now... Who will cry and say we did nothing if he hits us first... I think that we are all fair weather friends sometimes... No one wanted any of this... Before Sept 11 life was free and easy here in America... Then we felt the terrorism that people like Sadam Husein and Osama Bin Laden have been hitting people with in other countries all along... What did everyone say???? They said oh INTEL wasnt doing their jobs, and the CIA didnt see this coming... well your psychic peace loving friend here sees horror in the future for a people that we dont know, as well as more terror in this country, if we dont react... No one likes war. I don't want to lose my son but I am proud that kids like him care enough about their country not to do the kind of bitching I see here on this board.. but care enough to do something that can actually make a difference. If we go to war let's become united not by our opinions we can keep those but by the mere fact that we are Americans and are proud to be that at least... I love you all no matter what you think. But its hard to sit in my seat right now and I need you all. This country needs you all. If you dont like something that is happening email your local news, your congressman, etc... Stand up do something... there may come a time when it comes into our homeland are you then going to be happy that we are the powerful country that we are... or will you sit still and let the oposition take your children and torture them... I recently saw an Al qaeda film that was found with Osama's buddy... It was video of Al quaeda operative terrorists going into schools here in America and stomping on the bodies of children and shooting into the backs of the seats... Again I say to you... I believe in peace... I believe in nonviolence... at least we go in after huge forewarning... We dont sneak up on an ususpecting people while they are drinking their morning coffee... and slit the necks of airline stewardesses... You say what does Sudam have to do with Osama... everything... Only he not only terrorizes others he kills his own children that don't agree with him and tests weapons on his own people... he is deep underground while our proud Generals serve...
God Bless you all no matter how you feel sometimes we don't have a choice in the matter, that is what seems to be happening no matter how anyone protests. Bitching isnt gonna change things but actions will... No matter how I feel my kid is still slap dab in the middle and" his decisions are very important in the way our country sees the enemy" quote unquote worded on the medal he recently recieved... I am damn proud and~ will I die for FREEDOM if it comes to that??? YES I WILL... love Ree
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Slammy
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Re: Am I Alone?
« Reply #24 on: Mar 17th, 2003, 7:37pm » |
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Note to editor: Pardon my repost, but I felt it was more appropriate in this thread: Slammy
I find it amazing that this issue is being spewed as a demo-republican issue. Of course, most of the liberals are making it political "I can't beleve anyone in the democratic party is supporting this war" - Howard Dean.
Daschle is blaming Bush for his failed diplomacy as the cause of the US being at the brink of war. Former Illinois crook senator Moseley Braun says she's a democrat and therefore against the bombing of innocent women and children.
Hmmm, does that mean I am for the bombing of innocent women and children because I back my president? Thousand of innocent Kurds were slaughtered by chemical and biological warfare, and no one complained. If the US did not enforce the "no-fly" zones, it would continue to happen.
There are certain responsibilities that go with being the world's super power and the world's defender of freedom. You can't just speak or protest about it, you have to take action. Tyrants like Sadaam only understand action, not words.
The best thing that can happen is that Saddam bails at the last minute, and the only reason that would happen is the fact that 250,000 troops are amassed on his border waiting to make that happen.
But if he doesn't, then action must be taken. That's the tough call. Diplomacy hasn't worked for 12 years. What makes anyone think that it will work in the next few months. We must go in, even if it means going in alone.
This country was founded by people willing to die for freedom. Freedom that many Iraqi's can't even comprehend. This willing to die for Freedom is what rid the world of Hitler, Liberated France and Italy, and help unite the German nations. This willingness to die for freedom is what won the cold war and liberated Kuwait.
Shall we just pick and choose when we defend freedom? Shall we wait until thousands more die at the hands of this tyrant before we say, " Ok, that's enough... NOW you may go in." ?
When 9/11 happened, everyone was for invading Afghanistan. But since Saddam is not a imminent threat to "US", we should not take action.
It is easy for France and Germany and Russia to take their stance... It isn't their mission statement " To protect and defend Freedom throughout the World"
But hasn't been the US's mission statement and vision? Shall we become hypocrites to our cause and position in the world because a few countries with hidden agendas do not?
It is easy to protest war and protest the bombing of innocent people. It is harder to make the tough decision to place women and men " In harms way".
That decision isn't taken lightly, or made in haste.
But many nations, in Europe and Asia and Africa, enjoy their Freedom because we have always been willing to make the harder choices. It has always been what we are all about.
Will innocent people die? Yes.. collateral damage happens in War. But make no mistake. This war is not about the bombing of Iraq. This war is about removing a threat, a cancer. And it will be over sooner than you think.
God Bless our government... and God Bless the United States of America.
and that's what I have to say about that!
Slammy
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That's it! Everyone out of the pool!
" Everytime I try to get out, they PULL me back in! "
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