Author |
Topic: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11 (Read 1324 times) |
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
    
Gender: 
Posts: 14968
|
 |
Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« on: Sep 11th, 2002, 6:33am » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Yes, we must kill the murderers of 9/11, but without becoming murderers and without simply indulging ourselves. We must defend ourselves — without throwing out civil liberties at home, without barring every Muslim student from this country, without forgetting what a huge shadow a powerful America casts over the world and how it can leave people feeling powerless, and without telling the world we're going to do whatever we want because there has been a flood and now all bets are off.
Because imposing norms and rules on ourselves gives us the credibility to demand them from others. It gives us the credibility to demand the rule of law, religious tolerance, consensual government, self-criticism, pluralism, women's rights and respect for the notion that my grievance, however deep, does not entitle me to do anything to anyone anywhere.
It gives us the credibility to say to the Muslim world: Where have you been since 9/11? Where are your voices of reason? You humbly open all your prayers in the name of a God of mercy and compassion. But when members of your faith, acting in the name of Islam, murdered Americans or committed suicide against "infidels," your press extolled them as martyrs and your spiritual leaders were largely silent. Other than a few ritual condemnations, they offered no outcry in their mosques; they drew no new moral red lines in their schools. That's a problem, because if there isn't a struggle within Islam — over norms and values — there is going to be a struggle between Islam and us.
In short, numbing ourselves to the post-9/11 realities will not work. Military operations, while necessary, are not sufficient. Building higher walls may feel comforting, but in today's interconnected world they're an illusion. Our only hope is that people will be restrained by internal walls — norms and values. Visibly imposing them on ourselves, and loudly demanding them from others, is the only viable survival strategy for our shrinking planet.
Charlie
|
|
 IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Bob P
New Board Hall of Famer
Shut up Bob!
Gender:
Posts: 3436
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #1 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 9:14am » |
Quote Modify
|
Civil Liberties - Tel Aviv airport is one of the safest in the world. Why? Because they profile with great predujice!
Gotta ask yourself the question, which do you want more, civil liberties or no more 9/11's?
|
|
IP Logged |
Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
|
|
|
oringkid
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #2 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 10:48am » |
Quote Modify
 Remove
|
As long as there are human beings on this planet, we will be killing each other. In the name of God, in the name of peace, in the name of freedom, because of love, because of hate, because of pain, just because...
It is in our nature. Our civility and morality is but a thin veneer over our primitive anima1istic nature.
Is it in us as a device to control overpopulation? Or just a terrible and inevitablely terminal flaw?
My moment in silence today is spent pondering the terrible beauty and potential of the human race and the devastating sadness of its eventual self destruction.
Sherry
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Drk^Angel
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #3 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 11:08am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
If we could only stop all future 9/11-like events if we give up our freedoms... But if we give up the freedom that this country was founded on, wouldn't the terrorist win? Even if we did give up our civil liberties, we'd still be at risk of attack.
PFDAN............................ Drk^Angel
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
2late
New Board Hall of Famer
Ride Free..Pain Free
Gender:
Posts: 1190
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #4 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 5:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
racial profiling need's to happen now!!! we know what the enemy look's like (for the most part- middle-eastern)but we're afraid of the a.c.l.u. & how we'll piss off other countries. the hell with them, racial profiling will greatly reduce our chance of being attacked. ...............2late
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
Gender:
Posts: 14968
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #5 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 6:00pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I have a suspicion you people are reading Freidman differently than I. I read this guy all the time and when it comes to these towelheads and other terrorists, he has zero sympathy. He's tough on these bastards for what they've done to even their own people. From what I read, he has no problem with profiling and neither do I.
These schitheads don't understand just how dumb this thing was. They're learning now just how dangerous being too successful can be (can't say schitheads here?) WTF?
Fuck 'em
Sweet old Charlie
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2002, 6:25pm by Charlie » |
IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Drk^Angel
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #6 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 6:11pm » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Y'all that's so hyped about racial profiling, and racism for the good of America and all that BS... Ya are forgetting that Oklahoma City was committed by a mid-western, redheaded whiteboy? Who are to say what races are good, and was races are bad? If you were to ban every race that has committed terrorism, there'd hardly be anyone left in this country.
PFDAN.............................. Drk^Angel
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
2late
New Board Hall of Famer
Ride Free..Pain Free
Gender:
Posts: 1190
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #7 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 7:53pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Drk, as i said in my post for the most part middle-eastern. i'm not saying it will eliminate attack only reduce it,& isin't that worth it? ..............2late
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
Gender:
Posts: 14968
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #8 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 8:03pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Get real kids. Profiling has been around since the dawn of man. That we discuss it says a lot about how this country operates. Going after the Achmeds of the world makes more sense than patting down Granny.
It's ethnic more than racial now. Everyone gets his turn.
Really careful old Charlie
|
|
IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Bob P
New Board Hall of Famer
Shut up Bob!
Gender:
Posts: 3436
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #9 on: Sep 11th, 2002, 9:05pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Profiling doesn't mean banning someone. It just means that look extra hard at the ones who fit the profile.
Police departments use professional profilers to identify likely perps all the time.
If we have to give up the privilage of walking to the plane without being searched, then so be it!
|
|
IP Logged |
Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
|
|
|
Drk^Angel
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #10 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 2:44am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Investigative profiling isn't the same as racial profiling. And just because it's always been around forever doesn't mean it's right. Just think about this... This country was founded on certain freedoms. These freedoms should be natural freedoms granted to all men, but that isn't necessarily true. It wasn't true for the countries that this country fought to gain it's independance. It wasn't true for many of the countries that this country fought wars against since gaining our independance. It wasn't true for many of the countries that immigrants to this country came from. These freedoms are what make this country so great, and what these terrorists are trying to do away with. If we okay racism to weed out terrorism today... Tomorrow we'll go back to racism to fight drugs, prevent violence, stop crimes, to stop alternative view points, and finally stop free will. Allowed to go unchecked, we could very well become what we have fought so many wars to prevent. I don't like the idea that people could be unfairly singled out purely on the basis of their skin colour, or their name, or what god they pray to. I see so many ppl running around goin' on about the "ragheads". It makes me sad that we are at a point that it is acceptable to use such a derogatory word. I wonder how many of you who use this word on a regular basis would find the word "n-i-g-g-e-r" just as acceptable. Racism is racism... Pure and simple. Racism is bred from ignorance and hate... Two things I'd rather not be labelled with. You can do as you wish, but I will not be apart of it, I will not support it, and I'd hope that the American ppl would not be willing to be ruled by a government that would support it.
PFDAN............................ Drk^Angel
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2002, 2:45am by drkangel » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
Gender:
Posts: 14968
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #11 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 5:42am » |
Quote Modify
|
I agree with your sentiments. I also agree that my use of "towelheads" is nasty shorthand. I can stop that.
The sad thing is that I'll have a hard time getting over looking twice at these people. Is it all my fault? I really don't know.
Charlie
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2002, 5:43am by Charlie » |
IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
oringkid
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #12 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 8:07am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Here, here! Drk!
I agree!
Sherry
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Ted
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #13 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 8:27am » |
Quote Modify
|
I go back and forth on this issue of racial profiling in fighting terrorism. Unlike "the war on drugs," both sides have good points, some of which have been brought up here. But Drk, you need to define at least one of your terms. You said you're not talking about "investigative profiling." Racial profiling is selecting individuals to investigate because of their racial background. By default "investigative profiling" would be selecting individuals to investigate because they're being investigated. But since no one mentioned that I don't think that's what you meant. What do you mean?
And for what it's worth, I agree that this country and this board is becoming more bigoted and accepting of bigotry towards anyone falling under the category of "ragheads."
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2002, 8:32am by Ted » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
TomM
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 2006
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #14 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 8:45am » |
Quote Modify
|
Ted--I don't think our country has become more bigoted just because someone used the term 'raghead'. I think our country, at least in my circle of freinds, is tired of the PC way to deal with issues. I'm sorry, the 60's are over and the Love & Peace movement has given us a generation of people who 'expect' things to be given to them and demand 'rights'.
When I taught high school a few years back, I informed my students they left thier 'rights' at the threshold to my classroom, they WILL stand for the pledge, and WILL be quite if they decide not to partake.
We earned each others respect and everyone's right were derived from that respect.
IMHO, PC is BS.
--TomM--
|
|
IP Logged |
"Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll go fishing."
--Thoreau--
|
|
|
Ted
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #15 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 9:00am » |
Quote Modify
|
Tom -- I wouldn't think our country has become more bigoted either if someone used the term "raghead." One person using it isn't something you can base a trend on. It's the masses using it more and more that I'm talking about.
I'm sorry to hear that about your circle of friends but the 50s are over. The era of anything non-bigoted is PC, and lynchings and allowing "vigalantes" to mete out their own "justice" against anyone of a certain race because all they had as evidence of a crime (or even forgetting to call someone "suh" was the person's race should have died with it. I don't see how you equate someone saying it's wrong to use derogatory terms against everyone of a certain race as the same as "people who 'expect' things to be given to them and demand 'rights'."
Also, I think most teachers do what you do. I mean have that rule of "you'll either take part in what we're doing in the classroom or allow the others to without you acting up and being disruptive."
See, for me people should be treated with respect from the start. And earn the disrespect. Not the other way around. But then again, you know us commie-hippies. Would you like a flower?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
TomM
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 2006
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #16 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 9:19am » |
Quote Modify
|
Actually, Ted, I think we are on the same page. One major reason you hear derogatory terms in the first place is when someone is angry. Many of us (all, perhaps?) were angry  about the attack on our nation, freedom, and way of life.
So maybe those terms are vocallized more today than a 367 days ago. Not an excuse; just a rationale. ???
I'll take your flower and I love S.F. but I won't wear it in my hair!
BTW--I was born in '62. Now you know I'm only middle aged!
--TomM--
|
|
IP Logged |
"Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll go fishing."
--Thoreau--
|
|
|
echo
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Chronic and still alive --- I Win!
Gender:
Posts: 4214
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #17 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 9:19am » |
Quote Modify
|
My 2 cents on profiling.
Done correctly it has the degree of accuracy to give law enforcement the headups they need to stop potential acts of aggression prior to happening.
Done incorrectly it becomes a waste of time and does nothing to stop acts of violence.
Case in point - during a recent trip I was randomly searched at the security check point - ramdom search at the gate, another random search at the connecting flight. Searched again twice on the return trip. Why was I picked -- I carried a laptop and nothing else. I was easy, white, late 40's. One on occasion there were mid easteners in front and behind me. Guess the guards were afraid of offending them. Hey -- you fit the profile, you get searched. Don't like it. Go back to your own country. I think they would prefer to be seached to remain in a country such as this. Life for them has got to be better here.
|
|
IP Logged |
"If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it".
Proud Dad of a US Marine, and a former Marine turned Police Officer.
|
|
|
TomM
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 2006
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #18 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 9:33am » |
Quote Modify
|
I've flown many times since last September and I've had the priviledge of getting my shoes searched EVERY time I fly; at security check-in, at the gate, where ever. I'm white, 40, and male. Search me all you want as long as it makes our travel safer!
--TomM--
|
|
IP Logged |
"Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll go fishing."
--Thoreau--
|
|
|
Ted
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #19 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 9:46am » |
Quote Modify
|
Tom, you're 3 years older than I so cut the shit with the middle-aged talk. 
Last time I flew I was searched, including my shoes too. That was probably because I was flying standby. Nothing wrong with that kind of profiling. And I'm still not sure if there is anything wrong with racial profiling in certain situations, if it's done right as Echo said.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
echo
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Chronic and still alive --- I Win!
Gender:
Posts: 4214
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #20 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 10:42am » |
Quote Modify
|
Agree. Search me if it makes travel safer for all. When they get to the cavity search I'll probably draw the line. Depending on the individual. 
|
|
IP Logged |
"If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it".
Proud Dad of a US Marine, and a former Marine turned Police Officer.
|
|
|
Drk^Angel
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #21 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 10:59am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
Ted... I was talking about the use of professional profilers to determine a possible profile of a subject for a crime given the circumstances of the crime. You know, where they'll say that a serial killer is possibly a white male, 25 - 35 years old, 150 - 230 pounds. This information is compiled from statistical information compared with the MO of the crime to obtain the most likely profile statistically for that particular crime. But they don't take that profile, and search everyone with that profile. BobP mentioned them, and that's what that line of my last post was about.
PFDAN................................. Drk^Angel
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
oringkid
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #22 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 11:22am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
What I have against the idea of racial profiling is what the common man will do when he hears that the government is saying this is ok. Right after 9/11 there were many incidences of perfectly innocent people who happened to look middle eastern being beaten and/or having their property destroyed. ONLY because they looked middle eastern. That is WRONG. But there are many in our country who would see a go on racial profiling as a go on blind vigilanteism (sp?).
I also feel that random searches are basically just doing lip service. If you are going to search, search everyone.
(course I can say that since I haven't flown since 9/11 and probably won't. I know it would cause horrible delays, but if you are not going to be thorough, why go through the motions?)
Sherry
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
jonny
Guest
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #23 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 11:29am » |
Quote Modify
Remove
|
8 flights in the last 14 months and not once did they single me out for a random search, they pulled what look to be a 80 yr old woman out of line that was in front me for a search one time. WTF is up with that shit?
................jonny
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Ted
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gender:
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Excerpt from Tom Freidman on 9/11
« Reply #24 on: Sep 12th, 2002, 11:38am » |
Quote Modify
|
OK Drk. Yeah. That's really the only way it should be done. With people who do know what an actual profile is and not just the one quality. That's how Israel does it. They don't look at only the factor of race (most of El Al's passengers have that Mideast look, afterall) but are they male, sweating on a cool day, etc...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Member Map
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print
test rss