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Topic: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise... (Read 961 times) |
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domm
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Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« on: Aug 27th, 2002, 4:00pm » |
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I am going to fight this bastard with every weapon I can find. I talked to the Doc today and I'm starting Verapamil tomorrow. I am about 6 weeks into my cycle (which normally last 16 weeks) and I am not going to just sit back and wait it out like I did last time. I'd appreciate some advise from those of you who have taken this path. Any hints, tips, things to watch for, etc.
I hate meds and this one scares me because I know my body needs calcium to function properly. But I am getting really pissed off that I have to crawl out of bed twice and three times a night to go hit the O2, then straggle off to work in the am and be at my best. I am starting to snap at my employees and find I am being far less tolerant of problems, rather than trying to solve the issues.
So, any help you can give is appreciated.
thanks in advance
domm
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Drk^Angel
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #1 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 4:07pm » |
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I never had any side effects, other than lowered blood pressure, but a major side effect that I've hear do is constipation. My doc recommended taking magnesium suppliment if it causes constipation. It's a little more national than many laxitives, and may even help some with the CH. Of course, there is the possibility of allergy to verapamil, so you'll want to watch for any abnormal swelling, rashes, or anything like that. Ask your pharmacist for a paper on the possible side effects, interactions, and warnings. It'll give you the best info for what to watch for.
PFDAN........................ Drk^Angel
P.S. Ya can also look up verapamil on www.rxlist.com to get info.
DA
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jonny
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #2 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 4:21pm » |
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If you have the Verap now start taking it now, it's going to take 5-7 days to get into your system depending on your body.
Good luck
...............jonny
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MyHeadHurts
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #3 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 6:35pm » |
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I had a very bad experience with Verapamil in that my side effect was memory loss. I would be doing something and forget the next minute I did it. The only way I can explain it was that it was like being on a phone call and the phone disconnects. I almost lost my job and had to stop taking it immediately.
I hope your experience is better. Best of luck!
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2late
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #4 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 6:47pm » |
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one thing i can tell ya about verap is if you have any kinda heart condition start with a small dose. personally all i can handle is 180 mg.twice a day i've had a heart murmer since i was a kid , anymore & my heart skips like hell. good luck! ..............2late
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Jim R
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #5 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 7:19pm » |
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What dosage are you starting at? I've been at 240 mgs. /day for years and just went up to 480 both extended release. I've had no side effects other than CH control and blood pressure control which were both intentional. Good luck. Jim R
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"Hammer of the Gods..." (pounding on my head...) and isn't Bowie great?!
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Episodic Clusterhead since 1978
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Ueli
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #6 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 8:07pm » |
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Next to oxygen the most benign medication for CH is certainly Verapamil. Unless your heart/circulation system is badly out of whack, there is hardly any reason to avoid Verapamil. The most common side effect is constipation, but that is easily to counteract by watching your fibers. Some people are prone to swollen ankles, but I am not trading that for more and heavier CH attacks. One solution - for people who are not too vain - are elastic stockings (hi NancyC  ).
I have never heard before of Verapamil causing memory loss, and a connection seems very unlikely to me.
MyHeadHurts, are you 150% sure that your memory problems were caused by Verapamil? Didn't you take some other medication at the same time that could take the blame? Sorry to ask this, but I have seen Verapamil accused of the most adventurous side effects, like a heavy weight gain by somebody who was at the same time on large doses of Prednisone.
domm, you are confronted with the alternative of taking some hated med or accept the (beloved?) CH attacks ;D. But be assured, by blocking the calcium from entering certain nerve cells, the rest of your body will have the more of it (at least 1 part per million). You can economize better on your Ca resources by decreasing the intake of spinach and rhubarb. These (obnoxious) vegetables contain lots of oxalic acid, which leaches the calcium from your bones and teeth  .
PFNADs,
Ueli
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domm
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #7 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 8:24pm » |
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OK - got it - make sure I poop. load up on bran and other fiber.
Watch for memory loss....and I don't like grapefruit juice anyway....
The doc wants me on 120 mg per day. My bp is already low (120/70) and he doesn't like to take chances (first - do no harm....). If I don't get some relief in a week, we'll take it up to higher levels.
Spent alot of time reading through past posts, other boards and internet info on the med. Frankly, its very scary stuff and I don't quite understand. Vera is a vasodilator. Imitrex is a vasoconstrictor. Is this a balancing act? Whats the point in getting things dilated then slam them shut? Just from reading the posts, it sounds like it works for a majority, but just. Lots of folks who it doesn't work for. I guess I'll find out.
Thanks for the help and advise
domm
ps - Ueli - you're a trip ;D
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| « Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2002, 8:26pm by domm » |
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Kilo
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #8 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 8:31pm » |
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Yeah, what Ueli said.
I've been on verapamil (240mg 2x/day) for all impending episodes for at least a decade, and the only effect it's had other than stopping the CH in its tracks is lowering my blood pressure very slightly. Even now, at 720mg, I have no side effects. (Constipation hasn't been a problem since I'm also on some drugs that cause diarrhea...they seem to cancel each other out.)
My former doctor urged me to stay on verapamil all the time, saying that there was no reason I couldn't do so. (I didn't even bring up the difference between his income and mine, but...) Keeping in mind the possibility of heart and blood pressure related effects mentioned in the other posts, I say the slight risk of constipation is GROSSLY outweighed by the very good chance of complete CH remission.
Hell, it's worth a couple of bowls of oatmeal a day if it'll give you some relief, no?
Let us know how it works for you. I'm hoping you'll get as good a result as I've had.
Kilo
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Drk^Angel
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #9 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 10:41pm » |
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Verap is definately a wonder drug that does wonders for me. If it wasn't for verap, I'd definately be up crap creek without a paddle.
PFDAN.................... Drk^Angel
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Ueli
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #10 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 11:03pm » |
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domm,
Verapamil is not a vasodilator. By reducing the Ca++ ions in the nerve receptors of the smooth muscles, these respond only sluggish to nerve signals. (Smooth muscles are controlled autonomously, not under direct control of our will). If at the start of a cluster attack the arteries near the trigeminal nerve respond only slowly to the (false) command to expand, the feedback loop leading to the rapid raise of an attack is greatly damped, and the attack becomes less intensive or is even suppressed completely.
Now, one the primary uses of Verapamil is to control blood pressure. This is done in two ways: 1) If the smooth muscles around the arteries are too tight, relaxing them leads a lower pressure for the same flow rate. 2) For some the heart contracts too fast. By slowing down the contraction rate, pressure peeks are reduced. From this follows, a congenital high BP can be reduced by Verapamil. But for a clusterhead with a BP in a normal range, Verapamil seldom has an influence on BP.
Lots of smooth muscles are found around the guts, contracting in waves to move the contents towards the rear end. Verapamil makes these muscles lazy too, hence the tendency of constipation. BTW, I eat two died plums a day, and that is all I need.
Finally, a word about grape fruits: They slow down the metabolizing of Verapamil, thus the effect is the same as taking a higher dose of V.
PFNADs
Ueli
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Drk^Angel
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #11 on: Aug 27th, 2002, 11:16pm » |
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Ahhhh... I knew someone would be able to explain the truths of verapamil. Thank you, and good job Ueli!
PFDAN.................. Drk^Angel
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oringkid
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #12 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 12:24am » |
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I don't even take Verapamil, but have read on this board that the Verapamil SR may work better for some. So if your doc puts you on the extended release and it doesn't seem to work, ask him if you can try the SR (short release I guess??)
Sherry
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domm
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #13 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 5:09pm » |
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Thanks guys - here's an update.
Took the first dose last night (as suggested) and had a minor around midnite. Managed to skip the 3am appointment with that animal and slept well. Took another with breakfast.
WENT THRU THE DAY WITH NO HA !!!!!! Yaaahoooooo!!! (oh yeah, shake your booty, its your birthday......)
Hoping for too much? maybe, but I'll take a PF day anytime the beast wants to give me one.
Anyway - I am very happy and pleased.
Ueli - here's the site where I saw that Vera was a dilator:
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/drugs_view/1,1524,633,00.html
To quote the site:
"How It Works
Verapamil interferes with the movement of calcium into heart muscle cells and the smooth muscle cells in the walls of the arteries. This action relaxes blood vessels (causing them to widen), which lowers blood pressure, increases the blood supply to the heart, and decreases the heart's overall workload. "
The comment about "causing them to widen" made me think it dilates them.
But this is for Verapamil Hcl (same thing?) I guess not. The one I'm taking simply says "Verapamil" no mention of "Hcl" which I believe means "Hydrochloride", or is a "salt" of Verapamil.
Be careful doing research!!! But I'm glad there are guys watching out for us "fools who rush in...."
I'll keep you posted.
and thanks again.
domm
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Drk^Angel
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #14 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 5:28pm » |
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Verapamil is verapamil HCL.
PFDAN............................. Drk^Angel
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Tom
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #15 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 6:33pm » |
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MyHeadHurts, didn't you confound verapamil with topiramat(Topamax®) causing the memory loss ?
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Thomas/Munich
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Tom
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #16 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 6:33pm » |
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MyHeadHurts, didn't you confound verapamil with topiramat(Topamax®) causing the memory loss ?
Thomas
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| « Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2002, 6:34pm by Tom » |
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Thomas/Munich
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Ueli
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #17 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 8:04pm » |
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domm,
Arteries have two sets of muscles around them, one to constrict and one to expand. Normally, in a healthy person, both sets are relaxed and are activated only when it is needed to increase or decrease the blood flow. One condition that causes high blood pressure are permanently overtight arteries (due to a wrong nerve signal). Verapamil makes them 'widen' in the sense that they return to the relaxed condition. Dilatation involves the other set of muscles, that too has to be activated by nerve signals. This dilatation is involved in a cluster attack, and making the response to the nerve signal slower helps to suppress the attack. Alcohol triggers the blood vessel dilatation too, no wonder it is for most a severe CH trigger.
The HCl (hydrochloric acid) is bonded to the Verapamil molecule to make it soluble in the guts, a trick used in many meds.
I hope the Verapamil gives you many PFNADs,
Ueli
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domm
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #18 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 8:16pm » |
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Thanks. I think I'm beginning to understand a bit better, tho I doubt I'll ever really know this stuff.
Had some shadows around 7 tonite, but no real movement towards full blown trouble. Just some pressure. Whether this PF day is an anomily, the early end of my cycle, the Vera, just positive thinking, or a coinicidence, I don't really care. But I'll take them anyday. Glad I found a doc who is willing to let me call the shots, but still able to give some advise.
I'll let you know how I do after a week or so.
Still smilin'
domm
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KingOfPain
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #19 on: Aug 28th, 2002, 11:37pm » |
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I found I should take mine with food. Also, if you miss a dose, DON'T double up! Take your next dose at regular time & dosage.
Take your verap as Dr. suggests, time & amounts.
If you feel yourself getting lightheaded, let Dr. know right away. I also have lower than "normal" BP.
Hope this helps & is correct information.
If I am wrong about what I said, please forgive me & anyone may feel free to correct me.
KOP : - { )
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| « Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2002, 11:43pm by KingOfPain » |
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SFChris
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #20 on: Aug 29th, 2002, 1:39pm » |
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Ueli,
Thanks for your posts - they were some of the most imformative (and easy to understand) that I have read in a long time.
Chris
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NancyMcFree
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WhateRe: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #21 on: Aug 29th, 2002, 5:28pm » |
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Ueli, you friggin amaze me .... all that knowlege. Are you a doctor or still in med school ??????? Whatever it is this site is very lucky to have you !!!!!!!!!!
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MyHeadHurts
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #22 on: Aug 31st, 2002, 7:38pm » |
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Ueli -- No, the verapamil was all I was taking besides Imitrex injections which I had taken for several years. Unfortuately, that was the only thing causing memory loss and after I stopped I went right back to normal. Had the same problem with Depakote.
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MyHeadHurts
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #23 on: Aug 31st, 2002, 7:47pm » |
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OOOPS Sorry Ueli -- Maybe it was the Topamax that caused the memory loss separately with the Depakote -- I've tried so many of these f*****g drugs over the years, I can't seem to get them straight anymore. Maybe it was the Verapamil that caused me to be so constipated I gained what seemed like 15 pounds of poop.... None of them helped the headaches anyway.
My bad!!
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domm
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Re: Starting Verapamil. Need some advise...
« Reply #24 on: Sep 2nd, 2002, 12:30pm » |
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I wanted to give an update on how the low dose of Verapamil that I started last Tuesday (the 27th) is doing. I am still using O2 and Imitrex for abortives and I'm using Robaxin at bedtime in an attempt to prevent. (Useless in my opinion)
I had a pain free day the first day. Not sure why, but the beast gave me a day off. Had a HA around midnite and skipped the usual 3am.
Next day (28th), had a nasty around 1:30 at work, shadows most of the afternoon then my usual midnite, three am routine. O2 and Imitrex aborting those quickly.
(29th) I had one around 9 am and I thought, gee, thats new, but it was only a half ass attempt. Another at 3:30 and my usual at midnite. Skipped the 3 am. I have not noticed any constipation, in fact, I am avoiding red meat and pushing salads and other roughage. This change in my diet has had gastronomic effects (my wife thinks its worse than before  she wants the old domm back - the one that doesn't stink)
(30th) Felt great since I had more sleep. Morning shadows but the boss wanted to go golfing. Had one on the sixteenth hole (took an Imitrex as soon as I felt it coming) and played the last two holes blinking away tears from my left eye. He is getting used to the idea that sometimes this happens to me and was fairly understanding. I insisted on finishing when he wanted to quit. I parred seventeen and bogied 18. I think I play better with one eye  Had another hit at 11pm and a half assed one at 4am.
(31st) Nothing in the am, heavy shadows all afternoon which I chased away with O2. Had the usual an hour after falling asleep and another about 2 hours later. I hit the Imitrex and O2 on the first, and used only O2 on the second. Both were aborted quickly.
So far, I have to say the V has converted full hits into half hits and seems to be keeping some of the HAs from going full blown. I am still getting some break through during my normal times (early afternoon and an hour or two after falling asleep, along with a second bout around 3 or 4 am) but these have been K 5s and 7s and have aborted quickly, nothing near a 10 (thank god). I seem to be having more shadows than I remember (but hell, I don't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone how my last cycle went). I have also noticed that the left side of my face feels flush sometimes, not all the time, just once in a while. Any idea why? Maybe I'm just rubbing it too much.....
I will be talking to my Doc about upping the dose, but I have some fears. I went back and read PinksharkMark's and Flash's notes about shrooms (now there's an agressive treatment!) and one of the things they talk about is that they felt the meds actually prolong the cycle. I'd like to hear some others thoughts on this topic.
I have also contacted Dr Saper's clinic about volunteering for a clinical trial. He's in Ann Arbor and I'm about 1 1/2 hours away. I'll let you know what they're up to when I find out. I know he's working on a treatment, but I'd rather be looking for a cure.
thanks for all of your support and advise
domm
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